Ehrman Debunked.

reply to post by wildtimes


Well Widltims, he said "Rome" and then equated "Rome" with inventing the Bible...I just wanted to know which particular era. Because Julius Caesar didn't invent it, but Constantine came along a lot later.

Julius Caesar, if I am not mistaken, also believed in the animal entrails divination.

reply to post by WarminIndy

"Rome" with inventing the Bible...I just wanted to know which particular era. Because Julius Caesar didn't invent it, but Constantine came along a lot later.

The point is that the Romans were very astute with astronomy. Constantine did, for all practical purposes, "invent the Bible", because he wanted to damper the civil unrest.

He was a pagan, also.

The Bible is not compiled in chronological order of authorship (aside from the fact that we don't HAVE the original scribblings - but only copies of copies of translated copies prone to mistakes). It left out the gnostic gospels ON PURPOSE. It was a political manifesto to ensure the ongoing slavery, oppression, and fear of power that all great Empires are built upon.

Rome fell. Seems to me its 'product' of the Bible in the 4th century (over 300 years past the events of Jesus) must be looked at as propaganda. It CERTAINLY was not "found" in its current form, and scholars have long since determined how it was compiled.

There is just too much sketchy in it for it to be considered "naked absolute fact." Impossible.

wildtimes
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

"Rome" with inventing the Bible...I just wanted to know which particular era. Because Julius Caesar didn't invent it, but Constantine came along a lot later.

The point is that the Romans were very astute with astronomy. Constantine did, for all practical purposes, "invent the Bible", because he wanted to damper the civil unrest.

He was a pagan, also.

The Bible is not compiled in chronological order of authorship (aside from the fact that we don't HAVE the original scribblings - but only copies of copies of translated copies prone to mistakes). It left out the gnostic gospels ON PURPOSE. It was a political manifesto to ensure the ongoing slavery, oppression, and fear of power that all great Empires are built upon.

Rome fell. Seems to me its 'product' of the Bible in the 4th century (over 300 years past the events of Jesus) must be looked at as propaganda. It CERTAINLY was not "found" in its current form, and scholars have long since determined how it was compiled.

There is just too much sketchy in it for it to be considered "naked absolute fact." Impossible.

I know Constantine was a pagan. But the Nicea Council is responsible for what books they accepted, even though different churches today still have books that were rejected.

The Western Empire fell much earlier than the Eastern or Byzantine Empire, which the world knew by Mohammed's time, the Qu'ran calls it the Byzantine. Constantine was head of the Byzantine.

We also don't have the original scribblings of Plato either. But we do have original scribblings of Pliny, Tacitus, Origen, and Augustine. And there was dispute between Jerome and Augustine.

While it is not compiled in chronological order, that is the fault of Augustine. Job is the oldest, but that's the way the Septuagint was set up. Jerome caught Augustine in a conspiracy over the Septuagint, because Augustine preferred it, whereas Jerome preferred the Masoretic text. But one thing is certain, the Book of Isaiah has never changed, we know this because of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I read today the same thing the Book of Isaiah said then.

And you know me, I was winking in my comment to 3NLI3TN3D...(that's a tough one because of the Dyslexia, took me 3 times, with those three 3s)

Had to do a bit of digging...

Key points of the Bible refuted.

Kudos to Wildtimes and FlyersFan for source data.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


I'm confused about this eclipse stuff. Maybe someone can help me.

Matthew 27
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Wouldn't the darkness indicate a solar eclipse? But the NASA reference says on April 3, 33AD, there was a partial lunar eclipse......? eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov...

A lunar eclipse can only happen at night, on the side of the Earth that is turned away from the sun. Jesus died during daylight hours, right?

A lunar eclipse occurs at night and a solar eclipse occurs during the day. There are only certain times when either of them can occur. A lunar eclipse can only occur when the moon is directly opposite the Sun in the sky.
www.moonconnection.com...

So, if Jesus died on that day, April 3, 33 AD, the darkness that was said to have occurred upon his death couldn't have been a solar eclipse, and he, supposedly, died too early in the day for it to have a been a lunar eclipse.

I can only conclude that the darkness was either a supernatural miracle, and can't be attributed to an eclipse, or it is simply a metaphoric tale.

I am also confused as to when Jesus ate his "Last Supper", was it a Passover Meal? As I have learned, supposedly, the year that Jesus died, the Jews celebrated a "High Sabbath" in which there were 2 holy days, Thursday and Friday? Friday and Saturday? I'm a little fuzzy on that. Perhaps someone can help shed light on that.

The manuscript evidence is what makes me think the connections weren't interpolated at a different date, and some of the connections made are far to improbable to have been fabricated. Ex.

Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.

That's rather remarkable: Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.

^^This makes me think that the biblical connections to the biblical stories and lineage HAS been "reverse engineered", interpolated.

windword
^^This makes me think that the biblical connections to the biblical stories and lineage HAS been "reverse engineered", interpolated.

you would first have to believe Jesus was a man and existed... so that's a start.

reply to post by SisyphusRide


I edited my post to reflect the text that I was commenting on. It has nothing to do with Jesus or whether or not he actually existed.

windword
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

I edited my post to reflect the text that I was commenting on.

It has nothing to do with Jesus or whether or not he actually existed.

ok cool... I guess it can be assumed for those that need be and for scientific purposes, that he existed. for the purpose of study.

even though the subject in question is inseparable from history...

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Because we know that energy cannot be created or destroyed. The universe is energy, that's it, nothing but energy, meaning the universe could have never have been created or destroyed.

Quantum physics shows that particles pop in and out of existence for microseconds at a time, that in no way says that those particles were created. Those particles could be "popping into existence" from another part of the universe only to return again to its original spot.

Just as quantum mechanics shows that two particles can be linked together no matter the distance, a particle can move from one end of the universe to the other instantaneously and it seems as though it "popped into existence", but really it just moved from one spot to another.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


The OT was supposedly written over a period of thousands of years by people who all believed in the same god and spoke the same language. Ignoring the possibility that the bible is one huge work of interpolation on the part of those in power, the authors all could have been following the same guidelines. Is that so far out of reason? I don't think so.

reply to post by windword


Yes, it was a seder meal.

But the very reasons it is not reversed engineers is this, the days of the Sitting Shiva fell on the Passover and the Sabbath.

As Matthew, Mark and John were all Jewish, they were speaking to a Jewish audience. Luke was a Greek physician who became a believer. By the time the New Testament was compiled, the split between Christians and Jews had already happened, in a very dramatic fashion. So no Christian by the time of Nicea even knew Jewish traditions. So they can't reverse engineer and not arrive at the Jewish traditions. But they stop short of that.

Leonardo Da Vinci had it wrong in his Last Supper painting. He did not show the bread as matzo, which the Jews would not have had the loaf as he depicted. There was no wine and no kiddush cup, which is what they would have been drinking from. Da Vinci seems to have no awareness of anything Jewish.

But the best way to know is in the fact they were Sitting Shiva, and that's why the women had to wait until Sabbath and Passover were finished.

Rules for Sitting Shiva

Without knowing this, Christians make assumptions. And why it is not reversed engineered is the fact no one picked up on this.

Jesus was placed in a borrowed tomb, because the burial was an emergency, but it was the Sabbath. That's why the women could not go in until the next day. Otherwise, it would have been that evening.

Burial on Sabbaths and Holidays
If burial occurred on the Sabbath (in case of some emergency-the burial being performed by non-Jews, or by Jews by decree of the government), mourning technically begins on the Sabbath, although there are no outward observances.

As the Roman officials and the later Roman church did not practice Judaism, they would not have been aware of this, so no reverse engineering, it is in the plain text, not picked up by the Roman church later. The Roman church had Sunday as the Sabbath, and in the morning. If reverse engineering had taken place, then these little things would have been preached, but they aren't done so from the Judiac tradition. That's where the confusion comes in.

If the burial took place on the first day of a two-day holiday, such as Shavuot, and the second day falls on the Sabbath, counting of shiva begins on the Sabbath, although the formal practice of mourning is not observed outwardly at that time.

The intention of a borrowed tomb means that He was not intended to be buried there permanently, that is why the women went to prepare His body, after the Sabbath was over. There was plenty of time from 3 PM to 8 PM for them to prepare, but because it was Passover and the Sabbath, they had to wait Sitting Shiva.

reply to post by Rex282


I won't believe someone walked on water until I see it. Quantum physics do not apply to our level of reality, which is why things are so weird at the quantum level. Jesus performed his miracles in this level of reality, meaning quantum physics couldn't have had a part in it in my opinion.

By the way, everything has already been married. Your body is married to your Spirit, this is heaven, this is the kingdom right here.

Yes, we are God in the flesh by the fact that we exist, and existence is a miracle in itself. Jesus was pointing out what we all are, not just himself. Religion has hidden that fact, even from you.

Your are the Light of God

reply to post by WarminIndy


My "reverse engineered" comment was addressing the names of the Old Testament, up to Noah. I wasn't commenting on the New Testament, although, I think that much of it was also "engineered" to fit OT prophecies, and not very well done either.

Also, I don't buy the excuse that Roman Catholics were unaware of Jewish tradition and rituals. THE COUNCIL OF LAODICEA IN PHRYGIA PACATIANA 364 A.D. These cannons indicate otherwise.

reply to post by wildtimes


I don't personally believe one person wrote Genesis, but a few people. Not sure it was Moses either, but maybe. I was only using his frame of reference to make a point, that if one person wrote all of Genesis as he believes, the code in the names could have easily been put in.

Also, I do not believe the resurrection occurred in any way. The whole scenario just seems way too convenient for what the bible is. I believe everything after the crucifixion was fabricated. If they could make up Jesus floating up into the sky, they could have made up his resurrection.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Rex282

 

I won't believe someone walked on water until I see it. Quantum physics do not apply to our level of reality, which is why things are so weird at the quantum level. Jesus performed his miracles in this level of reality, meaning quantum physics couldn't have had a part in it in my opinion.

By the way, everything has already been married. Your body is married to your Spirit, this is heaven, this is the kingdom right here.

Yes, we are God in the flesh by the fact that we exist, and existence is a miracle in itself. Jesus was pointing out what we all are, not just himself. Religion has hidden that fact, even from you.

Your are the Light of God

And who performed the marriage ceremony?

By what laws determined said marriage?

Marriage has always been defined as a contract, so who set the terms in the contract?

reply to post by WarminIndy


God set the contract. The marriage is happening every second of every day because you are both body and Spirit.

The Bride of Christ is your body, and Christ is the Spirit. The Bride of the Father (Christ/Spirit) is the Mother (body/Earth), the church is the whore who stole the Bride's title. What a coincidence that the man who founded the church was named Cephas or "rock". What is the Earth but an enormous rock floating in space?

The teachings that the whore promotes are a lie, meaning that Jesus' so called sacrifice is a lie, as is his virgin birth and resurrection.

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

My "reverse engineered" comment was addressing the names of the Old Testament, up to Noah. I wasn't commenting on the New Testament, although, I think that much of it was also "engineered" to fit OT prophecies, and not very well done either.

Also, I don't buy the excuse that Roman Catholics were unaware of Jewish tradition and rituals. THE COUNCIL OF LAODICEA IN PHRYGIA PACATIANA 364 A.D. These cannons indicate otherwise.

edit on 22-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

The council here at Laodicea (one of the churches mentioned in Revelation) says

CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

OK, they knew about the Sabbath. That was well-known anyway.

THE members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received.

Well, no funeral services in cemeteries...we are all heretics to be excommunicated. Sitting Shiva is done at home anyway, and since they didn't know Sitting Shiva was done at home, then they didn't know that Jewish tradition.

PRESBYTIDES, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.

The Vatican just released this...Priscill a Frescoes

If you click on that link and see the fresco, please tell me what she is wearing? A Jewish prayer shawl...why has this not been mentioned even though it was known about since 230 AD? See, that proves moving away from reverse engineering.

No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.

A Judaizer would be a heretic and schismatic, but since they only know about the Sabbath, then what is this?

IT is not permitted to hold love feasts, as they are called, in the Lord's Houses, or Churches, nor to eat and to spread couches in the house of God.

I don't even know what that is, but it's not Jewish.

This is the only mention of unleavened bread, which is Passover. They know it is unleavened, which was also well-known, so no surprise there. See, it is going away from reverse engineering.

IT is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.

And they missed the Apocrypha and the Book of Revelation in this

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.

Oh snap, every Bible now is heresy according to them....

Here's a fun one...

Women may not go to the altar.

This doesn't say for preaching or praying, but for whatever reason, she may not go there, even Samuel's mother went to the altar to pray, but as they are not reverse engineering here, they are moving away from Jewish traditions, of which they don't know all about, and didn't recognize all of them, that's why they were left in the Bible.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

God set the contract. The marriage is happening every second of every day because you are both body and Spirit.

The Bride of Christ is your body, and Christ is the Spirit. The Bride of the Father (Christ/Spirit) is the Mother (body/Earth), the church is the whore who stole the Bride's title. What a coincidence that the man who founded the church was named Cephas or "rock". What is the Earth but an enormous rock floating in space?

The teachings that the whore promotes are a lie, meaning that Jesus' so called sacrifice is a lie, as is his virgin birth and resurrection.

edit on 22-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

How would that change if life were found on Mars?

My body is married to my spirit...and marriage contracts and the proof of the marriage is in the shedding of blood (always shown in ancient times as the bloody sheet), then what is the outward proof of the consummation of the marriage of our body and spirit? But even Jesus said "that which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit". What is the proof of consummation?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Finding life on Mars wouldn't change anything, I'm not sure why you think it would. Mars is still part of the physical universe meaning even Martians are married to their bodies.

The consummation is in the blood that runs through your body. You are alive aren't you? Blood does not flow when you are dead. Since your blood does flow and can be shed, that is proof of consummation. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit, yes. Not sure where you're going with that. Do you believe that your body doesn't contain a spirit, or better yet THE Spirit?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Finding life on Mars wouldn't change anything, I'm not sure why you think it would. Mars is still part of the physical universe meaning even Martians are married to their bodies.

The consummation is in the blood that runs through your body. You are alive aren't you? Blood does not flow when you are dead. Since your blood does flow and can be shed, that is proof of consummation. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit, yes. Not sure where you're going with that. Do you believe that your body doesn't contain a spirit, or better yet THE Spirit?

edit on 22-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Have you been married in real life?

I would think the proof of consummation includes....something else??

Since your blood does flow and can be shed

So you are saying that shedding of blood can be proof of consummation? Please expound a little on this shedding of blood.