Ehrman Debunked.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


I'd say you are close minded for believing it couldn't have been fabricated.

Greek mythology is pretty damn complex, yet it is total bunk. I don't see why the bible couldn't be put in the same category. Rome did keep up with the moon and stars movements, they could have easily backtracked within their records and found a day that fell on an eclipse.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Dear 3NL1ght3N3D1,

Thank you, May I point out where we agree?

My logical argument against Jesus rising from the dead or walking on water is physics. Physics dictates those things to be impossible. If you choose to ignore physics then more power to you, but I choose to recognize them.

There is a lot there to agree with. I, also, recognize physics. It is a wonderful way to describe solid objects and their movement according to the Laws of Nature.

Let me steal something from C.S. Lewis and his essay Religion and Science:

"Well, the laws [of nature] will tell you how a billiard ball will travel on a smooth surface if you hit it in a particular way -- but only provided no one interferes. If, after it's already in motion, somebody snatches up a cue and gives it a biff on one side -- why, then, you won't get what the scientist predicted."

"No, of course not. He can't allow for monkey tricks like that.'

"Quite, and in the same way, if there was anything outside Nature, and if it interfered -- then the events which the scientist expected wouldn't follow. That would be what we call a miracle. In one sense it wouldn't break the laws of nature. The laws tell you what will happen if nothing interferes. They can't tell you whether something is going to interfere."

. . .

"It isn't the physicist who can tell you how likely I am to catch up a cue and spoil his experiment with a billiard ball; you'd better ask a psychiatrist. And it isn't the scientist who can tell you how likely Nature is to be interfered with from outside. You must go to the metaphysician."

I think the laws of Physics do a fine job, as far as they go. But they can't say anything about things outside of nature.

This is an important point, and I hope you understand it.

With respect,
Charles1952

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Mark and Luke were not eye-witnesses, so my first paragraph is not wrong.

If someone could have fabricated a fictional biography of a man that was at least 4 times as long as Jesus' biography, what makes you think Jesus' couldn't have been fabricated as well? Even Appolonius' biography is grounded in history as your quote says.

By the way, it would help that you post a link to where you got your quote from, it's a requirement of the T&C of this site. Just a friendly reminder.

According to Licona(Video above), the majority(55-60%)of scholars accept traditional authorship of mark and luke. Mark was not an eye witness account, but he did accompany Peter the leader of the apostles. Luke never claimed to be an eye witness, but he does claim speaking to eye witnesses. Therefore, you still have documented eye witness testimony. Everything you have said is mentioned in that video please watch it.

Luke


1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

What makes me think it wasn't fabricated is the amazing interconnectedness of 66 books written by 40 authors, and the fact that you can see prophecy playing out in front of your eyes today.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Logic dictates that there was no beginning and there will be no end. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only change forms. The universe is just one enormous ball of energy, so the universe could have never been created nor can it ever be destroyed.

The universe has always existed in one form or another and will continue to always exist in one form or another for eternity. Even your consciousness is energy, meaning you too are infinite and eternal.

"The universe has always existed ect....." That would constitute as extraordinary claim just like Jesus walking on water, you better have some extraordinary evidence.

reply to post by charles1952


I understand the analogy, but it doesn't quite fit. Someone sticking there hand in and stopping a billiard ball is not the same as god reaching in and changing the laws of physics.

A man and the billiard ball are both inside of nature, physics and your version of god are separate and are not part of the same nature. Once god steps in, he then becomes a part of nature and therefore must abide by its laws.

If god is separate from nature, then he could not possibly interfere, otherwise he would be part of nature. Hopefully you can understand that.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Argument from incredulity. You can't imagine how 40 different authors could have connections between their books, since you can't imagine that it is impossible without god.

The books have to have been written in a certain order yes? So what makes you think they couldn't have used the earlier books as a reference to make those connections? What makes you think those connections couldn't have been interpolated at a later date?

Also, when you have the reference for these prophecies right at your fingertips, and the money and connections TPTB have, what makes you think they couldn't be self-fulfilling these prophecies? They have a guidebook in the bible, and they are following those guidelines to a tee. Don't agree? Argument from incredulity. See, that can go both ways.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


The evidence is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, that's a scientific fact. What is the universe but an enormous ball of energy? Everything is energy in one form or another, meaning everything within the universe could have never been created and it can never be destroyed, because everything is energy. That's basic logic and will hold up to scrutiny. Who's to say our big bang was the first?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I'd say you are close minded for believing it couldn't have been fabricated.

Greek mythology is pretty damn complex, yet it is total bunk. I don't see why the bible couldn't be put in the same category. Rome did keep up with the moon and stars movements, they could have easily backtracked within their records and found a day that fell on an eclipse.

If that was in Roman records why did I have to rely on NASA technology to figure it out rather than it being something well known to the public?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by charles1952

 

Did Abraham Lincoln's speech have him levitating in the air or shooting fireballs out of his eyes? If not, then you are comparing apples to oranges.

actually yes, Honest Abe did alot of things, but since he was president of the United States his true history and identity has been hidden until now.

had something to do with the the time frame before top secret information can be released... well that's the U.S. government ya know?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Not everything from the first century survives today. Rome charted star maps and recorded the constellations and their movements, they were pagan, they would have. Google "Roman astronomy" and you will know it is true that they did.

NASA is not the only source of astronomical information in the world. Maybe you saw NASA and stopped right there? If you had kept looking you'd have seen that lots of cultures have kept up with astronomy for thousands of years.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Argument from incredulity.

You can't imagine how 40 different authors could have connections between their books, since you can't imagine that it is impossible without god.

The books have to have been written in a certain order yes? So what makes you think they couldn't have used the earlier books as a reference to make those connections? What makes you think those connections couldn't have been interpolated at a later date?

Also, when you have the reference for these prophecies right at your fingertips, and the money and connections TPTB have, what makes you think they couldn't be self-fulfilling these prophecies? They have a guidebook in the bible, and they are following those guidelines to a tee. Don't agree? Argument from incredulity.

See, that can go both ways.

Well first off I can imagine 40 different authors having connections in their books without God, but I personally believe that God is the best answer to the amount of connections throughout the Bible.

The manuscript evidence is what makes me think the connections weren't interpolated at a different date, and some of the connections made are far to improbable to have been fabricated. Ex.

Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.

That's rather remarkable: Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.

Why would that be hidden in the names mentioned in Genesis, and then just so happen to be the main theme of the Bible?

Reference

There are things like this all throughout the Bible.

This link is interesting as well if you want to check it out.

Pi and E hidden in Scripture.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Not everything from the first century survives today. Rome charted star maps and recorded the constellations and their movements, they were pagan, they would have. Google "Roman astronomy" and you will know it is true that they did.

yes the Roman Catholic Church placed the earth at the center of the universe in their observations... it took the martyrs (men of God) to correct that and enlighten us.

did you watch the Cosmos series from Carl Sagan? it's very inspirational to me... I have watched it numerous times.

there is also the Connections series by James Burke, another of the greatest minds in our time... highly recommended.

if there are no seeds, shout out

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


One man wrote all of Genesis, Moses. What makes you think he couldn't have intentionally coded the names in himself? Man is the one who created language, so of course a book written in language could have been coded, especially if that code is within a book written by one man.

That's not a very good example because Genesis has only one author, your point was that of 40 different authors.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

The evidence is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, that's a scientific fact. What is the universe but an enormous ball of energy? Everything is energy in one form or another, meaning everything within the universe could have never been created and it can never be destroyed, because everything is energy. That's basic logic and will hold up to scrutiny. Who's to say our big bang was the first?

Who is to say it wasn't? Right now Science has no earthly idea what happened at the beginning there are some hypotheses that would agree with you and say the universe is eternal (as would the law of conservation of energy), however none of them have been tested or proven in any form or fashion. According to what Science currently knows is that the Laws of Physics had a beginning and this beginning was the first Planck-time after creation. So if the physical universe was non-existent, then the laws of physics would be non-existent seeing as they are secondary and predicated upon its existence.

Another thing is that according to quantum physics energy can be created or destroyed, but it is a very very short time frame...

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

One man wrote all of Genesis, Moses. What makes you think he couldn't have intentionally coded the names in himself? Man is the one who created language, so of course a book written in language could have been coded, especially if that code is within a book written by one man.

That's not a very good example because Genesis has only one author, your point was that of 40 different authors.

edit on 22-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You didn't grasp the whole point. That sentence is what the entire Bible is about. Meaning why did the other 39 authors continue to center around the same theme when its probably wasn't something everyone knew about.

The three hundred messianic prophecies are another good one too.

3NL1GHT3N3D1

The standards I use for the miracles are physics, which say that the miracles Jesus performed were impossible. Those are my standards, what are yours?

edit on 22-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Then you need to study physics because you don't understand the basics yet.One of the foundational standards of Quantum physics is Heisenberg uncertainty principle which is the more precisely the position of some particle is measured by observation, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa.In other words particles only do predictable things when they are measured /observed.

Nonlocality is the fact that two particles that are entangled can have immediate effects on each other, even when separated by large distances like ....across the universe.

If you are trying to disclaim"miracles" can't happen because physics doesn't allow it that is patently incorrect.Most physicist just don't say these are miracles but by a definition they are .Of course this is only the scratch of the surface of reality..which is a whole other universe in itself!!.

IMO you are welcome to not believe the miracles of Yahoshua however to say they are impossible because of physics is not correct.It is physics that made them possible.Many things Yahoshua said (almost everything) is physics!When asked by some pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come he said..the Kingdom of God comes WITHOUT OBSERVATION(a key function of physics) it is neither here nor there but in your midst.That is not some new agey metaphysics- mysticism foolishness of "the christ consciousness" is in you .It is the basis of the most performed studies physics experiment double slit experiment of observing particles or waves that observation effects the outcome and that matter(waves or particles) can be in two places simultaneously.

Yahoshua clearly stated NO ONE understood what he was preaching (he said this to the disciples before the explanation of the parable of the soils and seed)..not even the disciples knew then because Yahoshua was/is "not just of this world"/realm.He was literally in two realms simultaneously (nonlocality).The Kingdom of God(the spirit realm) was in his heavens.The Kingdom of God is neither here nor there.It is not a place or is it "fixed" (local). There is no "place" that is heaven".Yahoshua never said that.ALL of mankind are "the heavens" not just ones that choose themselves or who think they are or can become "enlightened".The heavens of mankind is "what" the Kingdom of God will enter into (the midst).

Everything he preached was a metaphor.There are no parallels in the physical realm of the spirit realm only metaphoric shadows.This is the valley of the shadow of death.The Kingdom of God is life.The two realms(at the least) will be married just as Yahoshua already was.Man can't "enter into life" by their methods ..any method..especially religion which is the antithesis of the Kingdom of God in mans "heavens).Only God can cause this marriage and we most assuredly are not God nor ever will be.

As for physics.Mans knowledge is in the amoeba stage yet nonlocality,and the uncertainty principle and wave-particle duality are paramount.Einstein called nonlocality spooky action....however there's nothing to be afraid of.What we call miracles are just the beginning faint shadows of reality.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by arpgme

 

Not strange at all. Rome (who legalized Christianity and put the NT together) were avid astronomers and were also pagan. They kept up with the skies movements just like many other cultures in those times. I don't find it too far out of the question to think they could have set up the crucifixion scenario around the time of the eclipse after the fact.

You are so funny.

Which era of the Roman Empire are you referring to?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

One man wrote all of Genesis, Moses.

The style and manner in which those books are written give no room to believe, or even to suppose, they were written by Moses; for it is altogether the style and manner of another person speaking of Moses.

In Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, (for every thing in Genesis is prior to the times of Moses and not the least allusion is made to him therein,) the whole, I say, of these books is in the third person; it is always, the Lord said unto Moses, or Moses said unto the Lord; or Moses said unto the people, or the people said unto Moses; and this is the style and manner that historians use in speaking of the person whose lives and actions they are writing. It may be said, that a man may speak of himself in the third person, and, therefore, it may be supposed that Moses did; but supposition proves nothing; and if the advocates for the belief that Moses wrote those books himself have nothing better to advance than supposition, they may as well be silent.

But granting the grammatical right, that Moses might speak of himself in the third person, because any man might speak of himself in that manner, it cannot be admitted as a fact in those books, that it is Moses who speaks, without rendering Moses truly ridiculous and absurd:

--for example, Numbers xii. 3: "Now the man Moses was very MEEK, above all the men which were on the face of the earth."

If Moses said this of himself, instead of being the meekest of men, he was one of the most vain and arrogant coxcombs; and the advocates for those books may now take which side they please, for both sides are against them:

if Moses was not the author, the books are without authority;

and if he was the author, the author is without credit, because to boast of meekness is the reverse of meekness, and is a lie in sentiment.

Gotcha all! This is from Thomas Paine's Age of Reason Part II, at the Historical Library on the Secular Web. To access that source, you have to type "yes" in a box first....

so here's another: from sacred-texts.com

When we read in the books ascribed to Moses, Joshua, etc., that they (the Israelites) came by stealth upon whole nations of people, who, as the history itself shews, had given them no offence; that they put all those nations to the sword; that they spared neither age nor infancy; that they utterly destroyed men, women and children; that they left not a soul to breathe; expressions that are repeated over and over again in those books, and that too with exulting ferocity; are we sure these things are facts? are we sure that the Creator of man commissioned those things to be done? Are we sure that the books that tell us so were written by his authority?

It is not the antiquity of a tale that is an evidence of its truth; on the contrary, it is a symptom of its being fabulous; for the more ancient any history pretends to be, the more it has the resemblance of a fable. The origin of every nation is buried in fabulous tradition, and that of the Jews is as much to be suspected as any other.

To charger the commission of things upon the Almighty, which in their own nature, and by every rule of moral justice, are crimes, as all assassination is, and more especially the assassination of infants, is matter of serious concern.The Bible tells us, that those assassinations were done by the express command of God. To believe therefore the Bible to be true, we must unbelieve all our belief in the moral justice of God; for wherein could crying or smiling infants offend? And to read the Bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man. Speaking for myself, if I had no other evidence that the Bible is fabulous, than the sacrifice I must make to believe it to be true, that alone would be sufficient to determine my choice.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's been over a year now since I read The Age of Reason (purchased a copy of all of Paine's works), and these points above have firmly imprinted on my mind the doubt that MUST be cast upon the Bible by intellectual inspectors and critics.

That said, I want to address miracles:

As I learn more about quantum physics theories, it has become increasingly clear to me that the NEW laws of physics, as far as we know them, DO NOT PRECLUDE miracles. Further, it is known that Eastern mystics are able to enter states of stasis (appearing as "dead" but very much alive), that pain can be (and is) overcome by consciousness, and that people DO 'rise from the dead' in Near Death Experiences.

There are documented, witnessed cases of people "reviving" after having been pronounced dead - not just minutes later, but days.

Now, if these things are happening NOW (600 times a day across the US, due to medical technology, people 'come back' to report NDEs), then it stands to reason that whatever happened to Jesus after he was removed from the cross and before the tomb was discovered "empty" by Mary M. (in at least one version), it could have been medical rescussitation by skilled healing practitioners on a person who was gravely injured but had transcended his physical pain through use of his mind.

Science indicates more and more that things that were once called "miracles" (and often still are) happen to ordinary people, every day. This means they are not really "miracles" but unusual phenomena that have been replicable and now the awareness of Quantum Physics/Mechanics has gained enough ground that even lay-people are able to understand it (with difficulty, in my case). And those things like the wave/particle collapse, the double-slit experiment, SHOW that what was once considered ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE

now seems to be possible indeed. Is it not prudent then, to apply MODERN quantum mechanics to the events depicted in the Bible and attempt to figure out how they may have occurred?

IF QM shows how the 'dead' can 'revive' after a period of time up to days, AND this is happening across the world, in all nations, THEN we must revisit the "miracles" as not sleight-of-hand, but mastery of manipulation that is not acquired by everyone.

We just don't know.
Having said that, the Noah, Jonah, Adam/Eve things still don't add up. But I'm not so sure anymore that the resurrection did not happen. If it did, I think it was something that occurs NOT OFTEN, but DOES OCCUR, and it is part of a natural process/possibility that we are just now coming to grips with.

reply to post by WarminIndy

You're funny, too, Indy.
Here ya go:History of Astronomy — The Romans

The Romans. The first Roman calendar was said to have been created by Romulus at the founding of Rome in 753 B.C.E. The original Roman calendar was based on the lunar month, and the year was thought to contain ten lunar months. Later, Numa Pompilius added the months January and February (Januarius and Februarius). Tarquinius Priscus (616-579 B.C.E.), an Etruscan king, made further refinements. His calendar was 355 days long, with an extra month after February every two years. This extra month was at first called Mercedinus, "payment for work," and was a time when land leases were paid. Later, this extra month was known as Intercalans. The Pontifex Maximus would determine the length of Intercalans, to bring the calndar in line with the Solar Year.

Julius Caesar According to Pliny the Elder, there were three calendars in the Roman Empire at the time of Julius Caesar (shown at left): the Chaldean, Egyptian, and Greek calendars. All of these calendars could trace their origins to the Babylonian calendar. Pliny the Elder also tells us that Julius Caesar adopted a strictly solar calendar on the advice of the Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria. Sosigenes calculated the Solar Year to have 365.25 days (365 days and 6 hours).

To accomodate this quarter-day discrepancy, Julius Caesar adopted a calendar of 365 days like the Egyptians, but made every fourth year a leap year on the advice of Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria. This new calendar was strictly based on the Solar Year, with no attempt to reconcile it with the Lunar Month.

and Wiki History of Astronomy

Astronomy is the oldest of the natural sciences, dating back to antiquity, with its origins in the religious, mythological, and astrological practices of pre-history: vestiges of these are still found in astrology, a discipline long interwoven with public and governmental astronomy, and not completely disentangled from it until a few centuries ago in the Western World (see astrology and astronomy). In some cultures astronomical data was used for astrological prognostication.

Ancient astronomers were able to differentiate between stars and planets, as stars remain relatively fixed over the centuries while planets will move an appreciable amount during a comparatively short time.

Ergo, they would have known when eclipses were.

And as such, they could easily have linked the two events.

reply to post by wildtimes


Wildtimes

This happened to me the other night, I went to visit a neighbor and as I was sitting on her couch, I could feel some type of energy coming from behind her couch, and hitting me in the back. It wasn't threatening, but enough to cause me to notice it. After a few hours of talking, I then asked her "Do you have a scry mirror?" She laughed and said no, but she does have a mirror behind me, that had fallen off the wall. But then she said "My mirror is special though, I can see strange things in it". Then she played like she didn't know what a scry mirror was.

I know people who use them and showed them to me how they work. Well, when she told me that her mirror was special, and then playing like she didn't know what a scry mirror was and I told her that if she is using her mirror to see things, then it's a scry mirror. She then told me "scry mirrors aren't made of...." I told her that I could feel the energy from said mirror, and had felt it all that evening, without knowing she had been using it as a scry mirror or that it was even there.

I had called her out on the use of the mirror because I could feel it. This woman claims to be some kind of psychic, she does "vibes" and "Candle readings". But I didn't know about the mirror. That was one thing she had never told me about. Then, after I had identified it, she then asked me if I wanted her to do a reading on me. I said no, because if I had just gone there to talk, and felt the energy from the mirror but not her, then which one of us actually knows more?

I don't think that classifies as a miracle and I wasn't manipulating any Quantum Mechanics. She had been trying, but wasn't succeeding, I suppose. People call me psychic and yet I don't do anything to cause it to happen. Could it be that I am so sensitive that I know the difference in good and evil, and what is just a tool for some people? Nostradamus used gazing water. So I believe there is something real, that even in the Bible, one has to believe in the possibility before they can accept anything in it. They pass miracles off as tricks like Chriss Angel does.