I Suddenly Understood Something About Mary

DISRAELI

colbe
Who is "they?" You won't say it, the Holy Father.

I was just answering the question as it was asked.
You asked me "What has the Roman Catholic church declared...?"
So "They" in my response was obviously "the Roman Catholic church".
I even quoted your question so that the relation between question and answer would be more obvious.
You're making something out of nothing here.

edit on 23-11-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

DISRAELI:
"Everything that the Roman Catholic Church has "defined" in modern times, acting independently from the rest of the church and therefore acting schismatically."

The faith remains the faith, today and in 33 A.D.

History shows the Orthodox broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 10th century, they are in "schism" over the authority of the Pope. Luther broke away, left the faith, the Church, October 31, 1517 to begin the terrible splits and heresies of Protestantism.

So, your "rest of the church?" Who is that, Protestantism and their thousands of splits, which one of those or is it one the Orthodox? Jesus' words were singular in Matthew 16:18. Ephesians 4:5 states there is one faith which lines up with Our Lord starting one Church, Roman Catholicism.

DISRAELI:
"Everything that the Roman Catholic Church has "defined" in modern times, acting independently from the rest of the church and therefore acting schismatically."

Tell everyone why the Pope at the time was/is wrong in proclaiming the Immaculate Conception? God
can't be where sin is put simply to help. How could Mary carry God inside her with sin on her soul?

reply to post by colbe

That is exactly the same argument which the Gnostics used against the Incarnation.
"The world is full of sin, and so the true God could not have been born into it."
The thinking behind your line of argument is essentially Gnostic.
Just living in the world means living in a place where there is sin.
The case is no different.

reply to post by colbe


colbe

What did it take for you to believe in Mary? Did it take church dogma?

See Colbe, I am not Catholic and didn't assign any worship to her, only an understanding that she should be honored. But no council, no church dogma, no catechism did it take for me to have this understanding. But Colbe, let me ask you this, since you believe in all the Marian apparitions, did you believe that without the Church telling you?

I didn't have an apparition revelation. But the Church had no influence on it, do you understand the difference in you and I?

Not one Catholic person on here said what I understand was wrong, and yet none of them gave me catechism, except you. So it makes me wonder Colbe, all these people having apparition revelations, would they have believed or seen them outside Church dogma?

You know, the Bible says "blessed is she who has seen and believed, but more blessed is she she who has not seen, and still yet believed". My revelation was not a seeing of a statue, a picture, an icon, the rosary, none of that for me, but even at that, I don't see Mary the same way that you do. It is just that I understand better.

But why Colbe, do you suppose that such a person like me who has never been to catechism class, who only went to the Catholic church for social reasons (and only three times, ever) who has not taken Catholic communion, would receive an understanding and yet not seeking to become Catholic?


Because Colbe, I am a believer in Jesus Christ first and foremost. It wasn't Mary who smiled, it was Jesus who did, and Jesus who wanted me to know He was pleased that I didn't forget His mother. She has received her rest, let her rest with her Son.

And while I am wondering, why don't you tell us about Mary of Bethany, because Jesus said that wherever the Gospel is preached, she is to come up in remembrance for her act of anointing His feet. I never hear you talk about Mary of Bethany.

The obvious problem, Protestants reject Catholicism can NOT talk of Protestantism before 1517 as part of Christianity so where do they go? They, someone in particular, starts quoting the Eastern Church when she agreed with and followed Rome until their split in the 10th century which was over the authority of the Pope who they once followed!

Plus, the Orthodox have always believed as Roman Catholics in the most important, the tops, Christ's presence in the most Holy Eucharist. Protestantism rejects the authority of the Holy Father, Protestants reject the Eucharist and to go with, they reject the New Covenant ministerial priesthood.

Believe above all in Our Lord's presence in the Eucharist.

Repeated prophecy in Daniel states the anti-Christ is going to attempt to abolish the most Holy Eucharist.

Seeeee....how important it is to believe in the Eucharist, in the faith, Roman Catholicism? If you can come
to believe in the Eucharist you will not be waylaid by Satan and his plans during the Great Tribulation which
we are entering now.

colbe

DISRAELI:
"Everything that the Roman Catholic Church has "defined" in modern times, acting independently from the rest of the church and therefore acting schismatically."

Tell everyone why the Pope at the time was/is wrong in proclaiming the Immaculate Conception? God
can't be where sin is put simply to help. How could Mary carry God inside her with sin on her soul?

Because of one little thing, forgiveness.

I did say Jesus was her sacrifice as well. And at that time, sacrifice was accepted, but Jesus was the Final Sacrifice. David, who the Son comes from, said "I was born in sin, conceived in iniquity". And yet that same man who made that comment, Jesus is called the son of.

Son of David. And why does the genealogy of Jesus have such different people in it that one would think were the worst sinners? Judah, the man who refused to honor Levirate law, then had sex with Thamar and got her pregnant and almost had her killed, but yet Jesus is called The Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

He is called the Branch, the Root, the Son of...all these people who were sinners. His ancestress was Ruth, who was Moabitess. It doesn't make Mary any less fallible than any of these other people, but God chooses to do what God chooses to do and has redeemed them, even in their sins.

And that's why Jesus was born to a fallible person, to show God's redemption and forgiveness.

WarminIndy
But Colbe, let me ask you this, since you believe in all the Marian apparitions, did you believe that without the Church telling you?

You might be interested in this thread - ATS Guide to False Seers and Apparitions Don't listen to fake apparition messages and people who claim to know what God wants because 'he appeared here or there' and said so. WarminIndy ... you are doing just fine. I'm sure you already know that.

WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe

 

colbe

What did it take for you to believe in Mary? Did it take church dogma?

See Colbe, I am not Catholic and didn't assign any worship to her, only an understanding that she should be honored. But no council, no church dogma, no catechism did it take for me to have this understanding. But Colbe, let me ask you this, since you believe in all the Marian apparitions, did you believe that without the Church telling you?

I didn't have an apparition revelation. But the Church had no influence on it, do you understand the difference in you and I?

Not one Catholic person on here said what I understand was wrong, and yet none of them gave me catechism, except you. So it makes me wonder Colbe, all these people having apparition revelations, would they have believed or seen them outside Church dogma?

You know, the Bible says "blessed is she who has seen and believed, but more blessed is she she who has not seen, and still yet believed". My revelation was not a seeing of a statue, a picture, an icon, the rosary, none of that for me, but even at that, I don't see Mary the same way that you do. It is just that I understand better.

But why Colbe, do you suppose that such a person like me who has never been to catechism class, who only went to the Catholic church for social reasons (and only three times, ever) who has not taken Catholic communion, would receive an understanding and yet not seeking to become Catholic?


Because Colbe, I am a believer in Jesus Christ first and foremost. It wasn't Mary who smiled, it was Jesus who did, and Jesus who wanted me to know He was pleased that I didn't forget His mother. She has received her rest, let her rest with her Son.

And while I am wondering, why don't you tell us about Mary of Bethany, because Jesus said that wherever the Gospel is preached, she is to come up in remembrance for her act of anointing His feet. I never hear you talk about Mary of Bethany.

Everyone, read my comments to Warminindy, they were loving and positive. I really like this thread subject and the OP and now I read an attack on me personally. It is no use to comment. It's an inquisition.

Only God can bring us together, He promises "soon."




on me and the faith.

reply to post by colbe


You do realize then, that the Jews are keeping the Eucharist?

Did you know what is said at a Passover seder meal? Did you know that they break the bread (as Jesus did) and say "The bread of life which comes down from heaven".

What do you think the Eucharist is? Only if you accept that Christ is the bread of life, which comes down from heaven. And guess what, the bread is broken at the seder meal. So yes, if you place too much emphasis on that, then the Jews are keeping it.

The only difference of you and them, you believe Jesus is the seder meal, they haven't yet. That does not mean they never will, but Jesus never abolished the seder meal, He only said "When you do this, do this in remembrance of me". Do you do it in remembrance?

Jesus took the one thing they knew, the bread and the wine, and explained Himself in it. That is all He did. But He passed that cup of wine, why?

FlyersFan

WarminIndy
But Colbe, let me ask you this, since you believe in all the Marian apparitions, did you believe that without the Church telling you?

You might be interested in this thread - ATS Guide to False Seers and Apparitions
Colbe pushes apparitions that are obviously false (like Maria Divine Mercy) and tries to use guilt to push them - 'you are working against God' .. that kind of thing. So don't listen, WarminIndy ... you are doing just fine.

You are so loving FF. Thanks. You rather scare me, I am tired of your hounding me. I love Mary, happy
you do too.

colbe

WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe

 

colbe

What did it take for you to believe in Mary? Did it take church dogma?

See Colbe, I am not Catholic and didn't assign any worship to her, only an understanding that she should be honored. But no council, no church dogma, no catechism did it take for me to have this understanding. But Colbe, let me ask you this, since you believe in all the Marian apparitions, did you believe that without the Church telling you?

I didn't have an apparition revelation. But the Church had no influence on it, do you understand the difference in you and I?

Not one Catholic person on here said what I understand was wrong, and yet none of them gave me catechism, except you. So it makes me wonder Colbe, all these people having apparition revelations, would they have believed or seen them outside Church dogma?

You know, the Bible says "blessed is she who has seen and believed, but more blessed is she she who has not seen, and still yet believed". My revelation was not a seeing of a statue, a picture, an icon, the rosary, none of that for me, but even at that, I don't see Mary the same way that you do. It is just that I understand better.

But why Colbe, do you suppose that such a person like me who has never been to catechism class, who only went to the Catholic church for social reasons (and only three times, ever) who has not taken Catholic communion, would receive an understanding and yet not seeking to become Catholic?


Because Colbe, I am a believer in Jesus Christ first and foremost. It wasn't Mary who smiled, it was Jesus who did, and Jesus who wanted me to know He was pleased that I didn't forget His mother. She has received her rest, let her rest with her Son.

And while I am wondering, why don't you tell us about Mary of Bethany, because Jesus said that wherever the Gospel is preached, she is to come up in remembrance for her act of anointing His feet. I never hear you talk about Mary of Bethany.

Everyone, read my comments to Warminindy, they were loving and positive. I really like this thread subject and the OP and now I read an attack on me personally. It is no use to comment. It's an inquisition.

Only God can bring us together, He promises "soon."




on me and the faith.

Colbe, it is because you consistently give catechism. The only attack on you, maybe is because you reap what you sow? Look at Labtech's post comment. I gave him kudos for that.

Look at FlyersFan comment to me. Look at the video comment. These are people who did not ever tell me to become Catholic, like you are trying to do. Colbe, my only concern is that you learn my position, I had a mystical experience outside of the church, and yet you try to bring me into the church. Do you have the mystical experience? That's the difference.

WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe

 

You do realize then, that the Jews are keeping the Eucharist?

Did you know what is said at a Passover seder meal? Did you know that they break the bread (as Jesus did) and say "The bread of life which comes down from heaven".

What do you think the Eucharist is? Only if you accept that Christ is the bread of life, which comes down from heaven. And guess what, the bread is broken at the seder meal. So yes, if you place too much emphasis on that, then the Jews are keeping it.

The only difference of you and them, you believe Jesus is the seder meal, they haven't yet. That does not mean they never will, but Jesus never abolished the seder meal, He only said "When you do this, do this in remembrance of me". Do you do it in remembrance?

Jesus took the one thing they knew, the bread and the wine, and explained Himself in it. That is all He did. But He passed that cup of wine, why?

Our Lord was speaking to the first priests, instructing those who would confect the Eucharist when He said do this in remembrance of Me. And they have, every day and every hour since...

Please, start a thread about the Eucharist and your disbelief. I don't wish to reply anymore. You have not said one kind thing to me. I am sad, bye.... I was so happy about the OP.

WarminIndy

colbe

WarminIndy
reply to post by colbe

 

colbe

What did it take for you to believe in Mary? Did it take church dogma?

See Colbe, I am not Catholic and didn't assign any worship to her, only an understanding that she should be honored. But no council, no church dogma, no catechism did it take for me to have this understanding. But Colbe, let me ask you this, since you believe in all the Marian apparitions, did you believe that without the Church telling you?

I didn't have an apparition revelation. But the Church had no influence on it, do you understand the difference in you and I?

Not one Catholic person on here said what I understand was wrong, and yet none of them gave me catechism, except you. So it makes me wonder Colbe, all these people having apparition revelations, would they have believed or seen them outside Church dogma?

You know, the Bible says "blessed is she who has seen and believed, but more blessed is she she who has not seen, and still yet believed". My revelation was not a seeing of a statue, a picture, an icon, the rosary, none of that for me, but even at that, I don't see Mary the same way that you do. It is just that I understand better.

But why Colbe, do you suppose that such a person like me who has never been to catechism class, who only went to the Catholic church for social reasons (and only three times, ever) who has not taken Catholic communion, would receive an understanding and yet not seeking to become Catholic?


Because Colbe, I am a believer in Jesus Christ first and foremost. It wasn't Mary who smiled, it was Jesus who did, and Jesus who wanted me to know He was pleased that I didn't forget His mother. She has received her rest, let her rest with her Son.

And while I am wondering, why don't you tell us about Mary of Bethany, because Jesus said that wherever the Gospel is preached, she is to come up in remembrance for her act of anointing His feet. I never hear you talk about Mary of Bethany.

Everyone, read my comments to Warminindy, they were loving and positive. I really like this thread subject and the OP and now I read an attack on me personally. It is no use to comment. It's an inquisition.

Only God can bring us together, He promises "soon."




on me and the faith.

Colbe, it is because you consistently give catechism. The only attack on you, maybe is because you reap what you sow? Look at Labtech's post comment. I gave him kudos for that.

Look at FlyersFan comment to me. Look at the video comment. These are people who did not ever tell me to become Catholic, like you are trying to do. Colbe, my only concern is that you learn my position, I had a mystical experience outside of the church, and yet you try to bring me into the church. Do you have the mystical experience? That's the difference.

i didn't write the Catechism, I believe it so should everyone. This is Our Lord's desire.

Leave me alone, your attack is cruel, read my initial reply, it was very kind. Oh my, you attack the
faith all the time at ATS which is worse than a personal attack on me right now. Wow!

Don't reply in my threads and I shall never in yours again.

BACK TO MARY - My favorite title that people call Mary is ' Mary, Mother of God'.
Mary Mother of God

woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

FlyersFan
BACK TO MARY - My favorite title that people call Mary is ' Mary, Mother of God'.
Mary Mother of God

Note to Colbe;
"Mother of God" is a statement endorsed by an ecumenical council.
No quarrel with that one.
This is part of what I was trying to say in my very first post, that there is a median course between the two extremes of refusing Mary any kind of honour at all, and accepting every possible claim that enthusiasm can suggest.

ON MARY ... Scripture says the Angel from Heaven said 'Hail full of Grace" ...
Mary Full Of Grace
That link has some writings by the early church fathers ... back as far as 70AD.

colbe

WarminIndy
As you all know, I am not Catholic and didn't grow up hearing about Marian traditions. So I am going to be a little undertooled in this area. So don't think I am saying anything negative about her, I would never do that. But last night I was watching a show about a priest describing several exorcisms he had seen. I know the Church has rules for these things and always investigate if it really is a possession or some other thing. They do investigate to rule out psychological or epileptic conditions that may really be the cause. But that's not what this thread is about fully, it is about what I saw in this episode that led me to what I understand.

I saw as the priest was telling the person to repeat the "Hail Mary" and it was cursing at that. Then I remembered that in the Bible, it talks about the woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and that she went into the wilderness to give birth, and the dragon was very angry with her and wanted to kill the child. After seeing this possessed person curse Mary, I wondered why.

I also wondered why Holy Water burns. I don't understand that myself either, but apparently there must be something to it. I just don't know about that one.

But when I sat back and thought "She IS the mother of our Lord" then it only makes sense that those dark forces would not be happy that she gave birth to Jesus. I can see how this would be a war and she would be targetted. But the Catholic church seems to be the only one remembering her. So I think it is a shame this has happened to her. I think the most beautiful prayer is the Magnificat. So I want my Protestant brothers and sisters to read this and tell my why, if it is in your Bible, why don't we honor her as well?

My soul magnifies the Lord And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior; Because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid; For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed; Because He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name; And His mercy is from generation to generation on those who fear Him. He has shown might with His arm, He has scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and has exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty. He has given help to Israel, his servant, mindful of His mercy Even as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity forever.

I know people will come on this thread and say she never existed, she isn't to be worshiped, you can't pray to her and all that...but even if we look at what the Bible says about her, where is the honor she is actually due? Why don't my Protestant brothers and sisters not call her blessed, even though our Bible says we should?

Let me point here to some things so important, first of all, she trusted God above all else and recognized God first. That's the humility she shows. And this verse she quotes is from Isaiah and we can see in this, how she taught Jesus. Let's not have a fight over whether she was a virgin or not, whether she had more children or not, that isn't important at this moment. What is important is whether or not we do honor her as the mother our our Lord. No, Protestants have made her a byword.

I am Protestant, so I can say this. I think it is a shame that we haven't called her blessed and don't really know much about her beyond the nativity story. Who cares her age? Does that matter in the big picture?

No, she is not salvation, but she was the means by which our salvation came into this world. I understand that now, and if I can recognize her, then maybe others will too. I would love to believe that when she died and went to heaven, her son hugged her again and said He loves her. Let's not diminish that relationship, thinking that He would be sooooo god-like that He could not hug His own mother. Let's make her human once again and see her for what she was, a good mother, chosen to bring salvation into this world. She taught Him in this earthly life to have compassion and mercy. Shouldn't she even be honored that little bit, even for that?

Oh my gosh!

I absolutely love your thread, your words above. It is especially neat you're referencing Revelation
Chapter 12. Some of the reason Satan so hates Mary is he was given knowledge of her special place
in God's redemptive plan at the time of his rebellion.

She is the New Eve. Our Lord is the New Adam.

Both Our Lord and His mother gave their fiat the the Father's plan.

You make the Blessed Mother smile Warminindy.



love,

colbe

p.s. I can share why there isn't a lot of reference to Our Lord's mother in the Gospel even though
she was at every event of Jesus' life spoken of in Scripture less two I can think of...

Mary made it known to the writers of the Gospel, the Gospel would be, should be about her Son. Her great
humility. Revelation about who Mary is would come later.

FlyersFan

colbe
i didn't write the Catechism, I believe it so should everyone. This is Our Lord's desire.

Just stop the 'God wants everyone to be Catholic and come to the Eucharist' stuff. Leave it alone. You do more harm for your 'cause' than good. This thread is about MARY. Keep the discussion to Mary and it will be fine.


ON MARY ... Scripture says the Angel from Heaven said 'Hail full of Grace" ...
Mary Full Of Grace
That link has some writings by the early church fathers ... back as far as 70AD.

Your unloving personal comments about me here were uncalled for, you repeat in thread after thread. Leave me alone, please. You attacked me personally making fun of me to others about prophecy and then
you tell me to keep to the topic.

Anti-Catholics, mockers of the faith applaud your antics, it is very sad. They make fun of the faith
and congratulate you on your personal attack on me.

I do not come to ATS much anymore because of you.

colbe
Your unloving personal comments about me here were uncalled for, you repeat in thread after thread.

Hypocritical statement. That's exactly what YOU have done to ME.

Back to Mary ... Mary had one child. Jesus.
As He died, He gave her John to take care of her.
He wouldn't have done that if she had other children.
Brethren of the Lord

The terms "brothers," "brother," and "sister" did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two "brethren" of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."

reply to post by FlyersFan


I am glad that we have gotten past heresy and being schismatics. I am sure Colbe doesn't realize that without Pope Frances, I might still be a heretic. But as a heretic and schismatic, I still understood something that Catholics hold sacred and I certainly didn't want to cause a fight. That was not my intent and I don't think much of the first paragraph was read.

All I can say is that maybe Colbe should light a candle for me. but there was no attack on the Church or the faith of the church. Colbe, you have just met the cause of so much fighting in this world and you don't seem to be equipped to handle any disagreement.

People disagree with us schismatics all the time, and I have noticed Cobe, that us schismatics defend the faith of Christianity, even yours. We are taking the hits every day, because of people like you and from people like you. FlyersFan posts Mother Angelica, and I like Mother Angelica, the lady has common sense. I don't have to agree with every tenet and doctrine, but for the practical things she says, it makes a lot of sense.

But I'm not email bombing Mother Angelica with Bible verses against her. I'm a schismatic Colbe, are you more offended over my being schismatic or what you perceive as an attack against you personally? I never once offended the faith of Catholicism, but what are you defending Colbe, yourself or the Church? I see that you are defending you. But this schismatic was able to look past everything to see something that is very beautiful. Can't you just be happy for that?

You hit me with catechism, of which I don't believe in. But I didn't go after Catholics for that, only you. But maybe Colbe, maybe you can't see Mary outside of the catechism. And that's a shame that you don't know Jesus well enough. Maybe that's why you believe in all the apparitions, because you haven't seen it yourself.

You keep telling these threads about some person who received some message from somebody, but what message do you yourself receive by the Holy Spirit? Do you need every saint, every priest, every intercessor out there instead of the one who gives revelation?

All you have ever needed was the Holy Spirit, so it's probably time for you to seek the Holy Spirit. Don't let somebody else tell you what you can know for yourself. I'm telling you Colbe, you CAN know for yourself.