Should Christians judge God?

ChuckNasty
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Only after Christians acknowledge when the God in Genesis kept referring to Him as being a group of beings.

Also: The only thing, according to the same book, is our lack of taking of fruit from the tree of life that separates Him from Us?

We just need to do the right thing and love one another. Judgment will happen on its own with given Human interactions.

Our lack of taking of fruit from the tree of life was forced on us by God and was his way of murdering A & E through neglect.

Not a good way for a parent, let alone a God, to raise it's children is it?

Then again, Christians do not judge that as murder. Just a consequence to a small bit of the use of their free will.
It caused God to murder.

Regards
DL

OccamsRazor04

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

It's manslaughter in our society because we have a different system.

Their world was very different.

Indeed. Quite different. Which was my point. Our 'system' is different. Its evolved. Our sense of compassion has grown. We have come far with our understanding of morality over the centuries. Thanks to great thinkers, and people willing to look beyond a book claiming to have authority on these matters.

I completely disagree. Our morality is not superior. We have options that were not available to them. In many ways their morality was superior. Which do you think is "better", a system that lets a rapist go free multiple times for them to rape women over and over, or one that prevents them from ever destroying another person's life? Is the system that says a man who rapes a girl MULTIPLE times from the age of 14 walks free with PROBATION moral?

Who will care for the woman? What about if there is a child? There's no federal government welfare and food stamps. What would be your solution? Which solution provides for the longterm needs of the woman?

Surely a being of infinite wisdom and infinite love could provide that so I don't need to!! Surely that being could have devised a strategy more ideal than killing the victim!! Surely that could have been included in that holy text then, during that time! Surely.

The victim is not killed. The man who raped her was forced to care for her as a wife, and divorce was denied. I think you are confused. The only time the woman was killed was when she was married and had consentual sex.

Allowing it to continue is possibly the worst crime a person can commit.

How does that make said god immune from moral scrutiny? Sure lets pretend god is real and god has a message and we need to follow it or we will be punished and or not rewarded. Not killing that 'false prophet' and so not following god's will could be the worst crime under that beings law. Why is that law immune from scrutiny? It seems the implication is morality is the sole domain of religion. That in of itself is morally reprehensible to me.

I never said we should not examine God or His law's. I simply said IF we assume God is real, then the worst crime possible is someone leading another person away from Him. In that light killing a false prophet to prevent him from trying to do exactly that is not a bad thing.

Yet you say we have the better morals?

We so obviously do. Perfect no. Of course not. Better now? Obsoletely. To deny that is intellectual dishonesty on your part. Or cognitive dissonance created as a defense mechanism to justify your religious belief.

edit on 21-11-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

No. Letting rapists walk free is better? Letting murderers back on the street to murder again is better? Letting someone who rapes a child free to rape more children is better?

You are trying to view laws to deal with the world that existed thousands of years ago through the eyes of our current society. The technology we have today did not exist. The world was different. The laws reflected the time in which God gave them in. You still have not answered me, if you were in charge, how do you handle the crime of rape against an unmarried woman and how does the woman benefit under your law?

edit on 21-11-2013 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)

On women.

Christianity is supposed to be all about love.

You seem to think it moral to force a woman to have to live without a loving partner for all of her life as the wife of a rapist. Is this correct?

You also say that it may be good to kill false or lying prophets. Who caused them to lie?

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

It would seem that in killing a false prophet that you are killing the wrong party and it is your God you should be trying to punish instead of an innocent prophet.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Should Christians judge God?

Christians should discern.

dis·cern verb
perceive or recognize (something).
"I can discern no difference between the two policies"

No one can judge God because no one really knows Him.
(and no ... I highly doubt that the 'god' of the Old Testament is actually God )
you can't come to a conclusion about someone when you don't really know them.

judge verb
form an opinion or conclusion about.
"scientists were judged according to competence"
synonyms: form the opinion, conclude, decide

We can judge when we die and learn the facts .... IMHO

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
Should Christians judge God?

Christians should discern.

dis·cern verb
perceive or recognize (something).
"I can discern no difference between the two policies"

No one can judge God because no one really knows Him.
(and no ... I highly doubt that the 'god' of the Old Testament is actually God )
you can't come to a conclusion about someone when you don't really know them.

judge verb
form an opinion or conclusion about.
"scientists were judged according to competence"
synonyms: form the opinion, conclude, decide

We can judge when we die and learn the facts .... IMHO

True that the bible God is a myth and that we cannot judge him.

We can judge what is said of him in scriptures just as we can judge the morality of the giant in Jack and the beanstalk.

To believers, we are talking about reality, to no-believers we are talking about a myth. Either way, we can still judge.

Regards
DL

OccamsRazor04

The general rule for God's justice is thought by some to be close to an eye for an eye.

Do you see that as a Good beginning to a just legal system?

We use that bench mark to a certain extent in secular law where we try to balance or match a penalties with the crime. A harsh crime gets a harsh penalty and a lesser crime a lesser penalty.

You and your God seem to just want to kill all the time. What's up with that?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
We can judge what is said of him in scriptures just as we can judge the morality of the giant in Jack and the beanstalk.

When you judge the 'god' of the Old Testament ... you aren't really judging God.
You are judging the idea of God that the people of that time put forward.
So it's more like you are judging the people of that time rather than God Himself.
It's impossible to judge 'God' based upon the Old Testament stories.

So no. No one can or should judge God based on the Old Testament. IMHO.

OUT

Greatest I am
You and your God seem to just want to kill all the time. What's up with that?

What do you base that on? Old Testament stories? That's not God. So you can't judge God as 'wanting to kill all the time' if you are using the Old Testament stories. What you can do is judge that the PEOPLE of that time wanted to kill all the time, and use God as an excuse.

If you are basing 'God just wants to kill all the time' on the fact that he's an absentee Father .. that he doesn't put a stop to the wars or the killings or the mega-disasters like Tsunamis ... then you'd have a possible case against Him ....

But again, we don't know the big picture.
When we die we'll know it all and then we'll be able to really judge.
IMHO

reply to post by Greatest I am


There is no higher authority in the entire universe than God. If you think you can judge God then He will crush you like powder unless you repent.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Should Christians judge God?

Many have read the scriptures and come away at the end with a poor impression of God’s morals. This judgement stands apart of their belief or non-belief in God and the bible God is rejected purely on moral grounds.

Many Christians on the other hand seem give God a pass and exonerate their God’s more outrageous and immoral actions. I myself have noticed that Christians have a double set of morals. One for God and another for man. They praise and adore God for the same actions that they condemn man for. I see this as Christians judging God incorrectly.

This is pretty much textbook of logical, reasonable, educated, Illuminated, Enlightened men.

Be very very careful what one thinks is higher knowledge or higher education ..even from todays Enlightened and Illuminated secular reasoning men.


Try this out for morals..and education...for thinking as I just posted on this topic on another thread here on this forum.


Democide

en.wikipedia.org...


Down about three quarters of the way down this article on Democide R. J. Rummel makes this very interesting and telling quote..

His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the actions of people working for governments than have died in battle.

Notice something carefully here. The last 100 years quoted by R. J. Rummel is the time of secular, educated, enlightened, illuminated men not bound by religious dogmas as in centuries past. Men have been free in the last 100 years to be their natural goodness selves.

But what do we find..according to R. J. Rummel...?? More people have been killed and at a faster rate than in centuries past ..in the last 100 years and also killed by their own governments...not in war but by their own governments....and not bound by traditional religous dogmas.

This begs the question of what kind of morals are going on here in times of enlightment, illumination, education, sophistication et al..etc etc. In times of men of Morals??

I think that exactly the opposite has been going on to what is advertised about the product that modern man is supposed to be.

But the tendency of modern men is to avoid and ignore concepts like Democide and instead substitute..privily ...the concept of Judging God. I dont think this enlightened, nor intelligent, nor illuminated, nor modern, nor educated.

I call it blinders.

I knew for years that there was something very much missing from the history as well as the numbers and thinking for which so many tend to gravitate in articles and boards like this topic. But I had never seen until I read democide ..anyone doing and publishing research on it.

The history of secular educated, illuminated, logical, reasonable men tells a very different picture in the last 100 years from the product advertised. It is very much like politics today..also not the product advertised.

But the sad truth about it is that even many Christians are so ignorant they too are not aware of Demodice and what it tells about the upward reach of mankind...about logic, reason, education, illumination, and enlightenment. It should not be this way and I believe their own ministers work diligently keep them this ignorant and uneducated/uninformed.

Thanks,
Orangetom

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
We can judge what is said of him in scriptures just as we can judge the morality of the giant in Jack and the beanstalk.

When you judge the 'god' of the Old Testament ... you aren't really judging God.
You are judging the idea of God that the people of that time put forward.
So it's more like you are judging the people of that time rather than God Himself.
It's impossible to judge 'God' based upon the Old Testament stories.

So no. No one can or should judge God based on the Old Testament. IMHO.

OUT

So no one can judge him good or evil yet Christianity has done what you say cannot be done.
The same logic would apply to the N T so then the bible is useless to know anything about God.

I agree. The bible is a useless book that does not teach anything about God.

Regards
DL

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
You and your God seem to just want to kill all the time. What's up with that?

What do you base that on? Old Testament stories? That's not God. So you can't judge God as 'wanting to kill all the time' if you are using the Old Testament stories. What you can do is judge that the PEOPLE of that time wanted to kill all the time, and use God as an excuse.

If you are basing 'God just wants to kill all the time' on the fact that he's an absentee Father .. that he doesn't put a stop to the wars or the killings or the mega-disasters like Tsunamis ... then you'd have a possible case against Him ....

But again, we don't know the big picture.
When we die we'll know it all and then we'll be able to really judge.
IMHO

So in the meantime, you follow a God who is more evil than Satan as indicated by what is known or thought to be known of him.

Satan will be pleased.

Regards
DL

RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

There is no higher authority in the entire universe than God. If you think you can judge God then He will crush you like powder unless you repent.

But to form your opinion, you had to judge God yourself.

Why would you deny me what you do?

Is reciprocity not fair play in your theology?

Regards
DL

orangetom1999
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Should Christians judge God?

Many have read the scriptures and come away at the end with a poor impression of God’s morals. This judgement stands apart of their belief or non-belief in God and the bible God is rejected purely on moral grounds.

Many Christians on the other hand seem give God a pass and exonerate their God’s more outrageous and immoral actions. I myself have noticed that Christians have a double set of morals. One for God and another for man. They praise and adore God for the same actions that they condemn man for. I see this as Christians judging God incorrectly.

This is pretty much textbook of logical, reasonable, educated, Illuminated, Enlightened men.

Be very very careful what one thinks is higher knowledge or higher education ..even from todays Enlightened and Illuminated secular reasoning men.


Try this out for morals..and education...for thinking as I just posted on this topic on another thread here on this forum.


Democide

en.wikipedia.org...


Down about three quarters of the way down this article on Democide R. J. Rummel makes this very interesting and telling quote..

His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the actions of people working for governments than have died in battle.

Notice something carefully here. The last 100 years quoted by R. J. Rummel is the time of secular, educated, enlightened, illuminated men not bound by religious dogmas as in centuries past. Men have been free in the last 100 years to be their natural goodness selves.

But what do we find..according to R. J. Rummel...?? More people have been killed and at a faster rate than in centuries past ..in the last 100 years and also killed by their own governments...not in war but by their own governments....and not bound by traditional religous dogmas.

This begs the question of what kind of morals are going on here in times of enlightment, illumination, education, sophistication et al..etc etc. In times of men of Morals??

I think that exactly the opposite has been going on to what is advertised about the product that modern man is supposed to be.

But the tendency of modern men is to avoid and ignore concepts like Democide and instead substitute..privily ...the concept of Judging God. I dont think this enlightened, nor intelligent, nor illuminated, nor modern, nor educated.

I call it blinders.

I knew for years that there was something very much missing from the history as well as the numbers and thinking for which so many tend to gravitate in articles and boards like this topic. But I had never seen until I read democide ..anyone doing and publishing research on it.

The history of secular educated, illuminated, logical, reasonable men tells a very different picture in the last 100 years from the product advertised. It is very much like politics today..also not the product advertised.

But the sad truth about it is that even many Christians are so ignorant they too are not aware of Demodice and what it tells about the upward reach of mankind...about logic, reason, education, illumination, and enlightenment. It should not be this way and I believe their own ministers work diligently keep them this ignorant and uneducated/uninformed.

Thanks,
Orangetom

edit on 21-11-2013 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)

Let's have a look at Christian morals and more atheistic morals.
Seems that atheist fare better.

www.youtube.com...

As to the general theme you bring up on man against man violence, it happens that the markers for violent death are the best they have ever been as are the markers for poverty and slavery.

www.ted.com...

I would say that there is not much to your argument.

Regards
DL

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

You think. Sorry, "because I think so" is not sufficient. You claim absolute truth in which morality is better, "think" isn't going to cut it.

Yes. I think! It's something I believe in. One might say with religious fervor

I am more than willing to acknowledge my knowledge is not perfect and prone to fault. I am fallible and I only have fallible sources to draw from. That's great. Always growing and learning.

The religious however are guilty of what you just accused me of. Claiming absolute authority of knowledge. That's precisely what the Bible represents. The alleged wishes, thought, commandments, etc, of the creator of everything. People who believe the Bible is the infallible word of god are by proximal reasoning making the claim of absolute truth. Without proof to back it up that "isn't going to cut it".

No, apparently you won't type it once. I rechecked, you NEVER answered.

This is getting tedious. I did answer. Twice in fact. My response was cohesive to what you asked. You don't deem it a proper reply because I didn't limit myself to the strict parameters you set for me. That's not my problem.

You want me to pretend I am god. Why? Why must this answer fall on me. That's absurd. You're redirecting. It matters not if I can or cannot come up with a perfect moral solution for all these historical contexts. You're missing the point.

If we accept the traditional religious predicates, god is omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. Infinitely good, all-knowing, all-capable, everywhere. Additionally, outside of time.

So a being with a perfect moral understanding, with full knowledge of the times past present and future, doesn't provide a better moral solution even though he is fully capable to do so? It falls on me? A random web developer with a limited fallible monkey brain?

Or perhaps your are, as it seems you are, alluding to the idea all those verses I have shared ARE examples of a perfect moral solution. Well…. I think that's rather atrocious. As such, no way in hell do I believe a being like that had a hand in it.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

There is no higher authority in the entire universe than God. If you think you can judge God then He will crush you like powder unless you repent.

What a jolly good fellow.

I bet he's really fun at parties.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


To clarify what I said, I was speaking about a personal relation with the almighty not the dogmatic following of any book. You got me in a wrong context, I don't condone any of the things you listed.

The good books of all the religions in my view are ment for pointing the way not enabling debachery.

Again it all comes down to perspective.

Cheers.

Double post...sigh ever time it seems since the change over.

Greatest I am
Indeed. It did not fit as close as I would have liked but hopefully it makes theists think.

Regards
DL

actually it does help them think... it shows the theist where the atheistic mind and train of thought is flawed.

it'll be a great learning tool indeed...

reply to post by Treespeaker

To clarify what I said, I was speaking about a personal relation with the almighty not the dogmatic following of any book.

The good books of all the religions in my view are ment for pointing the way not enabling debachery.

Fair enough but the problem with taking a pluralist approach to religion is that they are often in direct conflict with each other on fundamental points. If they are all guides, then the guide is more of a labyrinth.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I guess a pluralist and fundamental approach can't be the the direct truth then.

The problem with fundamentalist's is that they often fail to look at the commonalities.

If there really is one truth then it should by nature be very obvious, failure to Agree on semantics seems to be a human nature of sorts to weigh and balance.

I am of a mind that there is no argument, that god is god. Everything past that is argument, if more churched/synagogued people understood this we would have less division.

If we all saw that the unnamed force in our lives were one and the same we might have something, it's never been about rules but that same thing we all have in common. None of us seem to describe it the same but isn't it really?

It's a wired existence but hey the ride is fun lol.

Cheers to you!