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Electric Comet ISON - Revealed

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posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by Tallone
 


Nah my post was much simpler in nature than that.

I didn't post anything as nefarious as you imagine. I pointed out that it is likely NASA retracted the video based on new information, something later confirmed in their statements.

The fact that they still showed ISON on ISWA even after ISON was proclaimed as dead is further indication of their uncertainty imo.

I also simply said that people are likely associating the information you posted based on the youtube video sources as opposed to the information as that is the nature of most people and that those posters are directly associated with BPE by youtube algorithms and by the posts in the comments sections themselves.

Such a break down of my post was unnecessary imo.




posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by vind21

Im am still looking where it expressly says that comets will effect the sun from an EU perspective. I only see information that says that the sun will effect the comet. Claims to the contrary in my opinion are based on youtube videos and conjecture. In fact if you look on thunderbolts it clearly says that the idea that comets have a visible effect on the sun or cause the sun to emit CME's as unconfirmed.

Let me help you out here.

You seem to be suggesting because of the size difference the Sun cannot be affected by a comet. But this is not the case under the EC/EU model. You are quite wrong and unfortunately for you your comment reveals the very shallow level of understanding you have about the EC / EU model.

You totally ignore the electrical POV of how forces in space operate. Think about the Sun this way. When a CME takes place there is a breach to the Sun's double layer, so called by plasma theorists because the process of magnetic reconnection creates a double layer particle flow speeding up the rate of energy release.This process results in a violent interaction between the insulated plasma cell that is the Sun and space plasma surrounding it.

The charged plasma of the comet penetrates the Sun's plasma sheath and short circuits the electrical field and the result is a discharge - explosive INTERACTION between Sun and comet.

This is the standard EU model as I understand it to be unless it has changed and I didn't notice.

I recommend you turn off Suspicious Ob / disinfo man and spending some time studying from from the area properly… But I don't think you can do that, right?



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by vind21
 


It is what it is. The problem begins with the pretence.



posted on Dec, 5 2013 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by Tallone
 





The charged plasma of the comet penetrates the Sun's plasma sheath and short circuits the electrical field and the result is a discharge - explosive INTERACTION between Sun and comet.


While I would agree with the technicalities of what you said, you over estimate the subtle nature of the connection.

We don't have to wonder if this is the case, comets have been around for a long time and until an object with sufficient mass with sufficient charge is brought to bear on the sun we will see not such blatent EXPLOSIVE interaction. Any such EXPLOSION would likely result in the destruction of the comet anyway so how would you demonstrate the method of destruction as different than the DST?

We don't have to wonder because MANY comets have have dove into the sun and around it, there have only been 1 or 2 cases where you can point at the data and images and see a direct response from the sun in the form of a CME discharge due to a sun diving comet.

The reason we saw such an impressive explosion from Deep impact is that we had a COPPER highly conductive metal object that was carrying a vastly differing charge blasted at high speed over a comparatively short distance towards an object much much larger but by no means a comparative ratio of mass and size of ISON vs The Sun. That is expressly why I feel comfortable disagreeing with the overestimated size of ISON proposed by some.

An interaction does not have to be directed at the comet its self, I suppose, to be considered a discharge but due to the complex nature of the system you will have a hell of a time proving anything. If you go look at the videos (and I will try to find you something specific, I think the most recent was one of the lovejoy's) you will see that it is only a few of the "larger than ISON" comets that have dove into the sun causing CME's both in the direction of the comet and on the opposite side.

These are events you can point to as evidence of this interaction, so far I believe we have had 2 such events vs many many non-events of other comets in the last 40 years. That does not make much of a solid argument data wise and that is a primary complaint from the EU and one I wholly support.




I recommend you turn off Suspicious Ob / disinfo man and spending some time studying from from the area properly… But I don't think you can do that, right?


You can see from this previous thread I authored: Electric Universe Strikes Again! Comets Destroy the Standard Model That I have previous experience with this topic and correspondence with the Thunderbolts Group.

Also I am the only one who has directly referenced actual papers by Don Scott, and I demonstrated my ability to infer meaning from a topic I a was unfamiliar with (Zeeman) by reading the actual mathematical explanation of such and posting my reference. If you want to know what the response from thunderbolts would be about the effects on the sun vs an object the size of ISON I can tell you what the reply will be.

Wall Thronhill - "So far there has been no indication that any instrument based near or on Earth had the temporal or spatial resolution to decide this issue."



As far as a NASA conspiracy for ISON I made a prediction, that NASA had pulled their video due to information that gave them cause to doubt complete disintegration of ISON's core, this was later confirmed by NASA. I also have previously stated I am well aware of the doctoring of data released by NASA and also gave a probable cause for that as well, being misinterpretation by average people, as a primary cause but by no means the only one.

I don't wish to spend tons of post rehashing arguments previously made in this thread about those kinds of topics, as far as I am concerned the debate is at a stand still until we get more information and images from NASA and others.

I don't think you can call into question my objectivity on the situation here.





EDIT: Here is one such event shown in DRAMATIC(musical) fashion (You may want to turn your sound down prior to viewing
)



This un-named comet approached a very quiet sun, dove into it, and "undeniably caused a CME", you don't have that kind of cut and dry demonstration with ISON. The video from Lovejoy is highly edited and unreliable and can be seen on space.com but I don't think it's even worth posting. We have only had these viewing capabilities for a handful of years, so maybe my previous comment on CME events vs non-events in the last 40 years is a little unfair, but it is in line with current comparisons and not unjustified.


edit on 5-12-2013 by vind21 because: Added video of specific event referenced

edit on 6-12-2013 by vind21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 12:14 AM
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Tallone
results in a violent interaction

The charged plasma of the comet penetrates the Sun's plasma sheath and short circuits the electrical field and the result is a discharge - explosive INTERACTION between Sun and comet.


Violent explosive interactions?

As you may recall, the total number of M and X class flares for the 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th(perihelion), 29th, 30th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th, is...
ZERO

It has been 16 days since the last X class flare.

So if you're not talking about big flares like you used to do (and repeatedly), then exactly what "violent interactions" are you talking about now?

--

Edit - just looking through the data once more, its actually surprising how quiet the sun has been recently.
A scientist could actually put forward the proposition that comet ISON has the effect of *quietening* the sun and calming it down.

edit on 6-12-2013 by alfa1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 05:59 AM
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Live information - ISON's current distance & speed



edit on 6-12-2013 by Tallone because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by vind21
 

So far as I am concerned you totally blew your credibility with that post of yours and and totally deserved a point by point break down of it. And still you don't bother to read my post before banging off your reply. So are you interested which interested in debating or is just about getting a bit of disinfo out there.

The violent interaction I was referring to in my sketchy overview involves the surface of the Sun. I am not specifically talking about a comet exploding. And when you do talk about a comet exploding I guess you mean behaving like an overcharged capacitor, right? But why are you mixing all that up? Is it a genuine lack of knowledge about EU on your part or are you intentionally seeking to mess the water a bit for others who might be following the thread?

Why do you shove relative size into your example of the satellite and Tempel 1. You then say it (relative size) isn't relevant... Why bother mentioning it? Either relative size is relevant to the discharge observed between both objects or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. From an electrical POV relative size has nothing to do with it if the smaller object approaching is strongly charged. And really this is a fundamental within the EU / EC model.

A rhetorical question for you. Have you even bothered to check out the EC or EU model yet?

Here's what you had to say about EC back on page 5.


Either way EU is steadily gaining support, enough to be taken seriously and given proper examination. We have got a lot of time to argue about this stuff ahead of us.

So you recognise EU has credibility amongst I guess the scientific community, or by 'steadily gaining support' were you really meaning amongst luddites (yeah and I mean luddites in the Pynchon sense)?

From a different post of yours on page 5.

I don't understand this bickering and back and forth its pretty obvious to me that alot of things that go unexplained by DST can be explained by EU and vise versa.

Yes I took you right back to this, because it is important. What are the things you find that are 'unexplained by DST that can be explained by EU and vice versa''?

It seems to me you advocate the DST theory. if so then why not just come right out and say that. At least Alfa1 and Wildespace make their case clear and attempt to come to grips with EU, even if only to blindly flail around hoping to hit something.

So anyways, yes do "go and find something specific". I look forward to that.


edit on 6-12-2013 by Tallone because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:06 AM
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alfa1
Edit - just looking through the data once more, its actually surprising how quiet the sun has been recently.
A scientist could actually put forward the proposition that comet ISON has the effect of *quietening* the sun and calming it down.


Further evidence to suppose my "totally opposite to EU theory" theory of a dampening effect of comet ISON on solar activity is a chart I just put together now.

Flares are classed, like earthquakes, in a logarithmic scale where a M is 10 times that of a C, and X is 10 times that of a M... so now going through the last two months and putting that "solar energy output" into graphical form produces this:


As well as the blue bars showing energy output in the form of C,M and X class flares, I've also noted :
*the closest approach to the planet Mars (where it was said to be "plasma interactions"),
*the closest approach to Mercury (where there was predicted to be HUGE plasma interactions),
*the closest approach to the Sun (where there was predicted to be Carrington-event scale solar flares)

Didnt happen.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:10 AM
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reply to post by alfa1
 

So you keep saying. A pity for your case that others caught interaction happening.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by Tallone
 



So you keep saying. A pity for your case that others caught interaction happening.


Actually, you are the one on this thread who keeps making unsubstantiated claims! You have also taken to bickering with someone who seems to understand EU theory and has been trying to explain what it actually says. You are your own worst enemy at this point.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:25 AM
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So anyways, yes do "go and find something specific". I look forward to that.


Ok, whatever you say man. "Something specific" was the reason I put the edit in, based on your time stamp reply there was nothing to look forward to as it was already contained in the post. A specific event that showed a CME as a result of comet impact. That should be pretty straight forward.

Perhaps you do not recognize the names on the references and quotes I am making as being from the 2 primary sources of EU theory these days; or failed to realize I often bring observations and videos that support EU predictions to these boards.

Perhaps you fail to realize that many of the people on this forumwho you are dealing with in this thread have had this exact discussion MANY TIMES over at least 5 or 6 threads on these boards directly related to the Electric Comet Model.



edit on 6-12-2013 by vind21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 07:39 AM
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Tallone
 
So you keep saying. A pity for your case that others caught interaction happening.


Given that B and C class flares happen pretty much every day, how does one distingush an "interaction", from "background noise"?

For other readers, a sense of scale is warranted here.
Earlier on in the thread, predictions were made of X class flares (that did not eventuate), and now EU proponents point instead to C class flares as supporting evidence.

As I mentioned earlier in the other posting, flares classes are a factor of 10 in scale, meaning that a C class flare is 100 times less than a X class flare.

Or to use analogies:
* a claim is made that a road is blocked by a 1 meter high barrier. On investigation, it is found to be a 1mm high ant.
* a prediction is made of storms with 100 mile per hour winds. On the fateful day, only weak 1 mph winds are observed.
* somebody claims to be a millionaire!! A check of their finances shows them to actually have only 10,000 dollars.
* An aircraft manufacturer claims to have a plane that can break the sound barrier. Testing shows it only flies at a paltry 7 miles per hour.
* somebody predicts X class solar flares. On the day, only C class flares are observed.

Oh wait, that last one actually happened.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 08:01 AM
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reply to post by Tallone
 




So far as I am concerned you totally blew your credibility with that post of yours


And haven't you done the same with your numerous failed predictions and unsubstantiated claims?

It seems that you only want to have this discussion with people that agree with you, because if someone doesn't agree... they are trolling, derailing, losing credibility, blindly flailing hoping to hit something, or otherwise attempting to "muddy the waters" of discussion.

I'm still waiting for a proper response to my counter argument to your claim of "enormous ISON fragments hitting the earth" and for a source (or any reason to believe) that "ISON is much larger than reported my official sources".

And, please don't say those are off topic, you are the one that originally brought both subjects to the table.


edit on 12/6/2013 by daryllyn because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 11:17 AM
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I've been reading this thread from the beginning and not a day has passed when I have not been utterly gobsmacked at what I am reading. I was tempted to throw my weight into the argument against EU, however DJW001, Alfa1, Daryllyn et all, you guys have been doing a superb job and I don't think there is much more I could add.

Tallone, you need to pay attention to what is being presented to you and challenge it, if necessary, with VALID and provable counter arguments. I have lost count of the times you simply either ignore it, change your mind on what you meant or simply change the rules. I can categorically say that there is nothing wrong with you supporting an alternative theory but for others to get on board you have to abide by the rules. Show us predictions made for ISON that have come true. Show us repeatable and testable predictions for other comets. Show us hard data that supports your claims. Show us this without using a video from YouTube or a web link from another EU supporter. If you honestly took your theory seriously, then you would welcome criticism and counter evidence. This would allow you to go back and retest your theory. Your grasp of this is staggeringly ignorant.

Your behave like a typical, paranoid conspiracist. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be a 'disinfo' spreader. If the evidence isn't there to support one of your claims, the TPTB must have hidden it or covered it up. You ignore pertinent questions, tell us our evidence is 'wrong' (why, because you say so?) and have the audacity to claim we are ignorant. We are not closed minded, YOU are. You really don't seem to understand that the people opposing you in this thread would happily welcome a new theory or revelation about the Universe, however they will not accept it if is simply not true.

I will also say this to Alfa1 and the gang - leave it. You know as well as I do that you will never change Tallone's mind. As admirable and thorough as you efforts are you are never going to convince him otherwise. Arguing with an EU supporter is akin to arguing with a Creationist and your commendable work is going to fall on deaf ears. However, I do wish you good luck if you do carry on! You have my support.

I now look forward to the inevitable ignorant, overly defensive and 'I have given you proof' rebuttal from Tallone *sigh*
edit on 6-12-2013 by Flaunt because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 11:40 AM
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Here are more video's of circumstantial evidence of sun grazers, CME relation, and planet transits for those interested.

The Best of SOHO sungrazers

As to the post above I would ask you amend *MOST* into your quote here.




Arguing with [MOST] EU supporter[s] is akin to arguing with a Creationist and your commendable work is going to fall on deaf ears.


This is in jest of course as being a supportter of thunderbolts I found that sentiment to be true the farther down the educational bracket you travel.
edit on 6-12-2013 by vind21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by vind21
 





Here are more video's of circumstantial evidence of sun grazers, CME relation, and planet transits for those interested.


Curious as to why "planet transits" is mentioned here.



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by DenyObfuscation
 


Because I misread this: "CME's and planet transit - LASCO C2 (Mar. 20 - Apr. 10, 1999)"

Beyond that I would assume it is mentioned so people are clued into the other very bright objects in frame. I'm not sure if you were thinking I was suddenly implying that planets transiting the sun on SOHO are causing solar flares, I assure you I am not.

My mistake
edit on 6-12-2013 by vind21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by vind21
 





I'm not sure if you were thinking I was suddenly implying that planets transiting the sun on SOHO are causing solar flares, I assure you I am not.


It did catch my attention. Not thinking flares necessarily but perhaps implying some kind of electric something. Anyway, I just asked to be sure of what was meant.

About the CMEs and solar flares, what's the connection to comets?



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by DenyObfuscation
 





About the CMEs and solar flares, what's the connection to comets?


The Electric Universe bases most of its predictions on established plasma physics. I'll ask you to bear with me a bit as if I were to just say, "it's electric" I'd be wasting everyone's time. Also please keep in mind that while I do have a physics background I am not a plasma physicist and some of this stuff is difficult to for me to interpolate.

A Debye Shield is a concept in plasma physics describing certain types of interactions between charged particles. I found a paper here that describes these interactions and relates to my previous points about how you can get electrical interactions in plasma that is electrically neutral.

Collective Plasma Phenom

I'd focus on the first few pages.

Next Electric universe says that stars and solar systems are part of an electromagnetic field carried on Birkeland Curents. These currents may be luminous where the plasma is sufficiently dense. As DJ pointed out when we look up into space we can see the magnetic properties of hydrogen plasma based on the Zeeman effect. In order to help explain why we don't see the electrical field I posted Don Scott's paper a few pages back. Here it is again:

Magnetic Fields of Birklend Currents


Being that all matter is composed of electrically charged particles, these two concepts allow for an interaction between all types of materials, they don't have to be metals. This is imporant to comets for a few reasons i will focus on the 2 most basic ones.

1. A comet is assumed to be from "Deep Space" this is shown by simply looking at it's orbit and using standard Newtonian physics to extrapolate its origin. The farther you get from the sun the less dense this plasma field becomes and the particles start moving faster. This has been confirmed by voyager and IBEX. This reduces the chances of interaction but allows for outburst in deep space when objects encounter pockets of denser plasma.

2. As a comet travels towards the sun it increasingly encounters more particles, this has two effects. First is that the object heats up the second is that on a microscopic level the plasma field that the comet is traveling through and the surface of a comet begin to interact. Please note that this effect is not limited to only comets. We see in on Venus, Satun's Moons, and more recently in the asteriod recently reclassified as a comet. This interaction while based on known physics which is shown by the helical nature of cometary plasma tails is above my pay grade to explain right now, I will simply have to take a line from WildSpace and "Wave my hands" to get past it.




There are current opinions that:

"There is simply no conventional way to explain the shockwave seen in the solar wind when Ison's debye shield popped."

(I will source this from ISWA as Im sure certain people's eyebrows just jumped half way up their foreheads, but I am running short on time right now. It's going to be weak because you can't exactly get real data from a "model" that does not directly look for it, that ole RAW data back to bite us.)

It’s usually termed gravity driven “out gassing” via “tidal forces” or it simply exploded. These processes would not effect the solar wind.

Stardust brought home much larger (some as big as a penny) chunks of rock and material from a comets tail than expected among the super fine dust, the Electric Universe takes this as evidence of electrical machining. But as they show in thier documentary there is photographic evidence as well.

The only time the significance of powerful electrodynamic forces unleashed by way of comets interacting with the Sun is mentioned is in official doomsday scenarios such as the Solar Kill Shot. The safety of astronauts and satellites are the only times cosmic electrodynamics is taken seriously.

This is why I stated that there simply isn't enough mass with most comets to get these grandiose displays everyone in the EU keeps hoping for. This sentiment is echo'd by the researches themselves in the quote I gave from Thronhill which is his standard reply and a fair one.


So for now it rests there, we have possible evidence of an actual interaction in the solar winds and ISON, but it will be sometime before that can be confirmed. When scale is applied this would lead one to conclude that an outburst from then sun in the form of a CME could in fact be possible when a comet approaches the sun with a big enough charge variance to cause matter to leap to it. Generally the effect subtle.

We currently don't have the tools to look for this interaction properly as Thronhill states. And Thus remains officially unconfirmed but is a hot topic every time a near sun comet comes around.

I may edit this post several times over the next few hours.

edit on 6-12-2013 by vind21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2013 @ 08:57 PM
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Bruce Gary is back on ISON's trail.



Dec 06, 23.1 UT: Added image showing my attempt to "recover" the comet after perihelion passage. It shows that any nucleus or coma must be fainter than V-mag 16.0, provided it was within my FOV.


That is following his announcement on November 30:



There will be no more updates on this web page for what I will always remember as the "Dud of the Decade.

SOURCE
Welcome back Bruce.

Welcome back ISON, or at least an excellent monitor of data from ISON.




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