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Courts Quietly Confirm MMR Vaccine Causes Autism

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posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 10:43 AM
link   

Pardon?
Risk of asthma from vaccinations
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


That's a CDC study so we write that off by default (huge conflict of interest), they play games with the statistics. Asthma is a profitable industry, they're not going to want to kill it by pointing out the real cause of the majority of Asthma.

There are enough studies out there already for us to know that vaccines are causing the majority of Asthma. People die from Asthma every day in the USA but we don't get fearmongered about it because Pharma profit from Asthma.

Effects of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory symptoms among children and adolescents in the United States.

"The odds of having a history of asthma was twice as great among vaccinated subjects than among unvaccinated subjects The odds of having had any allergy-related respiratory symptom in the past 12 months was 63% greater among vaccinated subjects than unvaccinated subjects The associations between vaccination and subsequent allergies and symptoms were greatest among children aged 5 through 10 years."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...





edit on 3-12-2013 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 11:14 AM
link   

Rubinstein

Pardon?
Risk of asthma from vaccinations
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


That's a CDC study so we write that off by default (huge conflict of interest), they play games with the statistics. Asthma is a profitable industry, they're not going to want to kill it by pointing out the real cause of the majority of Asthma.

There are enough studies out there already for us to know that vaccines are causing the majority of Asthma. People die from Asthma every day in the USA but we don't get fearmongered about it because Pharma profit from Asthma.

Effects of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory symptoms among children and adolescents in the United States.

"The odds of having a history of asthma was twice as great among vaccinated subjects than among unvaccinated subjects The odds of having had any allergy-related respiratory symptom in the past 12 months was 63% greater among vaccinated subjects than unvaccinated subjects The associations between vaccination and subsequent allergies and symptoms were greatest among children aged 5 through 10 years."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


edit on 3-12-2013 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)


Of course, I forgot, the CDC are baddies. Silly me.


Read the conclusions of the one you cited.
(I won't comment that it was only published in a chiropractic journal either. Nope. No comment from me...)

"DTP or tetanus vaccination appears to increase the risk of allergies and related respiratory symptoms in children and adolescents. Although it is unlikely that these results are entirely because of any sources of bias, the small number of unvaccinated subjects and the study design limit our ability to make firm causal. inferences about the true magnitude of effect"

Not very conclusive is it?

This one is though. It's a meta-analysis.
pediatrics.aappublications.org...


Still waiting for your list.

Rubinstein
"Again, anaphylaxis is just one of thousands of complications which vaccines can cause.

edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 11:36 AM
link   

Pardon?

From your reply I take it you don't understand why the 7 days was used from a clinical perspective.
There's a bit of research for you to do.


I understand exactly why they used 7 days, as they know that the majority of vaccine damage takes longer than 7 days to show up. As I said it takes up to 60 days for symptoms of MS to appear, and that was admitted by the pharmaceuticals themselves.


Pardon?

How about after 3 years then?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


You didn't read this study properly did you? Why do you keep doing this or is it that you do not understand the study?

Read this carefully:-

"The results of a 3-year prospective study of children (2-35 months old) in Britain and Ireland with encephalitis and/or severe illness with convulsions and fever were linked to each child's vaccine history."

So they're saying that they used a 3-year study of children with encephalitis/convulsions as part of their vaccine study. This is not the same as following those who've been vaccinated for 3 years to look for complications.

They state the periods after vaccinations which they investigated, as you'll see below the maximum is 35 days post-vaccination. Again this would not be long enough for the symtoms of MS to show.

The risk periods investigated were 0 to 3 and 0 to 7 days post-diphtheria, tetanus, whole cell pertussis, Haemophilus influenzae type b or meningococcal C conjugate vaccine and 6 to 11 and 15 to 35 days post-measles, mumps, rubella vaccine.

There should be no cut-off point for vaccine studies, we need to know right up to a person's death if the vaccine caused a disease e.g. Alzheimer's. (which we already know is linked to the metals in the vaccines which gradually clog the brain). This is why Big Pharma refuse point-blank to study unvaccinated person; they know they will lose a lot more than benefit.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 11:48 AM
link   

Pardon?

Well with a belief like that nothing will change your mind no matter how wrong you are.
Facts and evidence won't change a belief, no matter how ludicrous.
If they did then there would be no religion etc etc etc but that's another thread entirely...



Those who've closely followed the thread will have seen that vaccines are based on belief, dogma and McScience, they don't even use real controls in the safety studies.

Anyone who follows science and has access to both sides of the story will not want vaccinations.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 12:16 PM
link   

Rubinstein

Pardon?

From your reply I take it you don't understand why the 7 days was used from a clinical perspective.
There's a bit of research for you to do.


I understand exactly why they used 7 days, as they know that the majority of vaccine damage takes longer than 7 days to show up. As I said it takes up to 60 days for symptoms of MS to appear, and that was admitted by the pharmaceuticals themselves.


Pardon?

How about after 3 years then?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


You didn't read this study properly did you? Why do you keep doing this or is it that you do not understand the study?

Read this carefully:-

"The results of a 3-year prospective study of children (2-35 months old) in Britain and Ireland with encephalitis and/or severe illness with convulsions and fever were linked to each child's vaccine history."

So they're saying that they used a 3-year study of children with encephalitis/convulsions as part of their vaccine study. This is not the same as following those who've been vaccinated for 3 years to look for complications.

They state the periods after vaccinations which they investigated, as you'll see below the maximum is 35 days post-vaccination. Again this would not be long enough for the symtoms of MS to show.

The risk periods investigated were 0 to 3 and 0 to 7 days post-diphtheria, tetanus, whole cell pertussis, Haemophilus influenzae type b or meningococcal C conjugate vaccine and 6 to 11 and 15 to 35 days post-measles, mumps, rubella vaccine.

There should be no cut-off point for vaccine studies, we need to know right up to a person's death if the vaccine caused a disease e.g. Alzheimer's. (which we already know is linked to the metals in the vaccines which gradually clog the brain). This is why Big Pharma refuse point-blank to study unvaccinated person; they know they will lose a lot more than benefit.


Fair enough on the length of the study. My bad, I'll give you that.
The study was put in to reinforce the original as your suggestion that these vaccines cause MS and Alzheimer's is wrong and ridiculous respectively.

There is no evidence to suggest any vaccines cause MS.

As for Alzheimer's what "metals in the vaccines which gradually clog the brain" are you talking about?
Do you mean metal salts as there are definitely no metals in vaccines at all and never have been?
Do you mean aluminium salts? (You can't mean mercury as only the flu vaccine has any in even though you excrete the vast majority of that in a week and pretty much all of it a few weeks later).
Do you mean that the microscopic amounts of these somehow build up and "clog the brain" on their own?
Do you realise that aluminium salts are some of the most abundant substances on Earth and you will breathe in more in a month than you will ever get from vaccines?
There's a fair bit of aluminium in breastmilk too.
And fruit.
And vegetables.
And cereal.
And beer
Etc.

Is this what you mean?

Show me studies linking the aluminium salts in vaccines to Alzheimer's.
I would suspect that these have taken into account the fact that everyone is exposed to aluminium of some form every day in their lives and this has been removed from all the data. (sarcasm)



And we're waiting with bated breath for that list.


Rubinstein
"Again, anaphylaxis is just one of thousands of complications which vaccines can cause.

edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 12:19 PM
link   

Rubinstein

Those who've closely followed the thread will have seen that vaccines are based on belief, dogma and McScience, they don't even use real controls in the safety studies.

Anyone who follows science and has access to both sides of the story will not want vaccinations.



Wrong but even if you were right it's better than the anti-vaxxer's outright lies, deception and ignorance.



And guess what, WE'RE WAITING FOR YOUR LIST.

Rubinstein
"Again, anaphylaxis is just one of thousands of complications which vaccines can cause.

edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 12:44 PM
link   
reply to post by Rubinstein
 


I have asthma, so I research it.

Asthma is caused by...

antibiotic exposure
paracetemol ( acetominophen) exposure
chlorine expose
tobacco smoke exposure
lack of magnesium in the diet
not being breastfed
and not having intestinal parasites

Yes you read the last one properly. People with a juvenille exposure to worms a significantly less likely to have a whole range of autoimmune conditions, and when they do have them they are minor. Big pharma is actively trying to suppress the use of these parasites as a therapy as autoimmune diseases are their big earner. One of the few occcassions that a conspiracy is actually true. They can't patent the parasites, so no profit.

There are a whole range of causes for asthma. I never suffered until I had a became a bleach user at home, and I'm also tremendously affected by paracetemol. As is my son, who only has symptoms after exposure to them.

Antibiotics damage internal flora and upset the immune system. Tobacco smoke has all kinds of aggravating effects, and not being breast fed means your immune system is started off properly.

There are a great many actual causes for asthma. If vaccinations have any effect at all it's pretty minor.

BTW, the sample size in that study suporting vaccinations as causing asthma is way too small.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 12:53 PM
link   

Pardon?

There is no evidence to suggest any vaccines cause MS.



If you haven't looked for evidence then you'd be better not to assume that there is no evidence, I have looked so I am well-aware of the evidence. When you make black and white statements like the above, it shows that you're following a belief system rather than asking questions and investigating.

Multiple sclerosis and hepatitis B vaccination: adding the credibility of molecular biology to an unusual level of clinical and epidemiological evidence.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

CNS demyelination and quadrivalent HPV vaccination.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

"the temporal association with demyelinating events in these cases may be explained by the potent immuno-stimulatory properties of HPV virus-like particles which comprise the vaccine"


edit on 3-12-2013 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:08 PM
link   

Antigod

There are a great many actual causes for asthma. If vaccinations have any effect at all it's pretty minor.

BTW, the sample size in that study suporting vaccinations as causing asthma is way too small.


There are other causes of Asthma too, but the main one is vaccinations

British Cohort Study

(McKeever et al.: Vaccination and Allergic Disease: A Birth Cohort Study“, June 2004, Vol 94, No. 6, American Journal of Public Health)

There were a total of over 30,000 children with DPPT (diphtheria, polio, pertussis whom were vaccinated against whooping cough, tetanus), compared with non-vaccinated children, the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella were vaccinated), which were non-vaccinated. Results: Increased risk of allergy towards vaccination A child which has been vaccinated against DPPT averages per life year, a risk of 5.04% of allergic asthma. In contrast to a child which has not been vaccinated against DPPT only has a 0.36% risk of asthma.

Salzburger Study

Results: of 1004 unvaccinated children, had

Asthma, 0% in unvaccinated (8-12% in the normal population)

A-topic dermatitis 1.2% in unvaccinated (10-20% in the normal population)

Allergies 3% in unvaccinated (25% in the normal population)

ADHD 0.79% in unvaccinated (5-10% in children)


Study in New Zealand found that Asthma occurs at 15% in vaccinated and 3% in unvaccinated.

www.vaccineinjury.info...

edit on 3-12-2013 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:12 PM
link   
reply to post by Rubinstein
 





You're speaking to someone who's been studying this for over 10 years in detail. The mortality rate you quoted for Measles is completely exaggerated. Measles is only a risk in the malnourished i.e Third World


You patronising, ignorant twit.

I DID NOT get these numbers from some governement pro vaccination site. There have been several outbreaks in completely unvaccinated 'pristine' groups in Europe. I dug out the numbers of deaths vs the number infected. Which you have obviously neglected to do. So I'd say if you've been studying this for ten years, you've spent a lot of time avoiding doing the one thing you should have done first. Digging through the numbers. Or asking people in their 80's how many relatives died from it.

PEOPLE DIE FROM MEASLES.

There were two relevant outbreaks, one in Ireland and one in the Netherlands. Look them up you ignoramus.

Nearly 3,000 infected in the Netherlands , 2 young children and one 17 year old dead. 17% were hospitalised and/or had complications. The child mortality was was significantly higher in an American outbreak more recently. A general mortality rate of 1/1,000 is the norm, higher for the weak and very young.

Children under five have the highest mortality. if you are going round spouting that only poor malnourished kids die from it you are a world class muppet who avoids facts like the plague.

Please provide evidence of a large measles outbreak that has no deaths. You know.That pesky thing called proof. I want to see more than 2,500 infected and no deaths.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:20 PM
link   

Rubinstein

Pardon?

There is no evidence to suggest any vaccines cause MS.



If you haven't looked for evidence then you'd be better not to assume that there is no evidence, I have looked so I am well-aware of the evidence. When you make black and white statements like the above, it shows that you're following a belief system rather than asking questions and investigating.

Multiple sclerosis and hepatitis B vaccination: adding the credibility of molecular biology to an unusual level of clinical and epidemiological evidence.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

CNS demyelination and quadrivalent HPV vaccination.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

the temporal association with demyelinating events in these cases may be explained by the potent immuno-stimulatory properties of HPV virus-like particles which comprise the vaccine



No, when I make black & white statements like that it means I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about and have performed the relevant research to back it up.

You've already posted the first link and I'll say the same again.
This is an hypothesis, not a study (which is why it's published in the journal Medical Hypotheses).
Not proof of anything at all. It's an idea, that's all.

The second link is an abstract of case reports and seems quite unsubstantiated.
It suggests that there should be a study conducted and it concedes that the ones who presented were in the higher risk band, vaccine or not.
You missed the first part of what you quoted from it namely
"Although the target population for vaccination, young females, has an inherently high risk for MS, the temporal association with demyelinating events in these cases may be explained by the potent immuno-stimulatory properties of HPV virus-like particles which comprise the vaccine. A prospective case-control study of patients with MS or clinically isolated demyelinating syndromes receiving the Gardasil vaccine may provide relevant safety data in this population".
Did you miss that bit out on purpose?
Again, that's neither a study nor evidence is it?


We're not going to get this list are we because you made it up?

Rubinstein
"Again, anaphylaxis is just one of thousands of complications which vaccines can cause.

edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:28 PM
link   

Pardon?

Tucket

It is estimated that there is over 300000 births each day in the world. There's always a market for death. Yes, I think they are deliberately trying to kill people.
You know my stance on the vaccine element. Its not changing.


evidence won't change a belief,


edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)


Not true.. I used to believe that vaccinations were beneficial to people.. now I know better.

I understand why you have faith in Pharma, even though their drugs and vaccines etc perpetuate death, illness, and disease. The truth is unbelievable, especially if you work in healthcare.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:37 PM
link   

Rubinstein

Antigod

There are a great many actual causes for asthma. If vaccinations have any effect at all it's pretty minor.

BTW, the sample size in that study suporting vaccinations as causing asthma is way too small.


There are other causes of Asthma too, but the main one is vaccinations

British Cohort Study

(McKeever et al.: Vaccination and Allergic Disease: A Birth Cohort Study“, June 2004, Vol 94, No. 6, American Journal of Public Health)

There were a total of over 30,000 children with DPPT (diphtheria, polio, pertussis whom were vaccinated against whooping cough, tetanus), compared with non-vaccinated children, the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella were vaccinated), which were non-vaccinated. Results: Increased risk of allergy towards vaccination A child which has been vaccinated against DPPT averages per life year, a risk of 5.04% of allergic asthma. In contrast to a child which has not been vaccinated against DPPT only has a 0.36% risk of asthma.

Salzburger Study

Results: of 1004 unvaccinated children, had

Asthma, 0% in unvaccinated (8-12% in the normal population)

A-topic dermatitis 1.2% in unvaccinated (10-20% in the normal population)

Allergies 3% in unvaccinated (25% in the normal population)

ADHD 0.79% in unvaccinated (5-10% in children)


Study in New Zealand found that Asthma occurs at 15% in vaccinated and 3% in unvaccinated.

www.vaccineinjury.info...

edit on 3-12-2013 by Rubinstein because: (no reason given)


You're getting forgetful now, you've posted the McKeever one earlier too.
Here's the results and conclusion to it.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
"Results. We found an association between vaccination and the development of allergic disease; however, this association was present only among children with the fewest physician visits and can be explained by this factor.

Conclusions. Our data suggest that currently recommended routine vaccinations are not a risk factor for asthma or eczema."

The Salzburger study wasn't a study, it was a survey circulated among subscribers to a homeopathic website (and also promoted on anti-vax sites).
Not evidence based and unbelievably biased.

The New Zealand study wasn't a study either, guess what? It was another survey performed by guess who?
The Immunization Awareness Society (IAS) and the survey was distributed to their members and families only!!!
Again, not evidence based and probably even more biased than the first.

Absolute rubbish.



Where's the list Ruby?
The one that you've fabricated and lied to the readers of this about?

Rubinstein
"Again, anaphylaxis is just one of thousands of complications which vaccines can cause.

edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:38 PM
link   
reply to post by Rubinstein
 





There's lots of propaganda around and it's all too easy for people new to the topic to absorb without critical thinking


yet again... you patronising ignorant twit.

I thought it worthy of repeating.

I don't get more info from the news papers or pro vaccination sites or cdc . I read medical papers, written by medical researchers for medical researchers. I have a science background which has educated me to a level where I'm perectly capable of understanding them. I'm used to some pretty cut throat academic arguing with phds. You're not even close to a match to one of them, and not for me. And when I research a subject I do it properly. It's a skill you haven't developed. Apparently I acheived more in 2 years than you did in ten.

So you're claiming that all the published work by the researchers, that isn't meant for public consumption and is only read by other researchers, is there as misinformaton for he public? So I can infer that you believe eveything that disagrees with you this is faked? Why are so few publishing in support of your POV then? Your belief would mean nearly all medical researchers are intentionally deceiving practising doctors... or are most doctors in on it too?

You don't even know the mortality rates. I'd say that's a perfect example of a failure of critical thinking on your part.

Let me repeat myself... please dig up statistics on outbreaks that show no deaths in when thousands are infected.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:41 PM
link   

Tucket

Pardon?

Tucket

It is estimated that there is over 300000 births each day in the world. There's always a market for death. Yes, I think they are deliberately trying to kill people.
You know my stance on the vaccine element. Its not changing.


evidence won't change a belief,


edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)


Not true.. I used to believe that vaccinations were beneficial to people.. now I know better.

I understand why you have faith in Pharma, even though their drugs and vaccines etc perpetuate death, illness, and disease. The truth is unbelievable, especially if you work in healthcare.


Now you know better?
Replace the know with believe and do me a favour and read the thread plus the links before you spout the boring mantra of "I know why you have faith in Pharma" again.
Please.
Will you do that for me?
Then maybe you just might understand that I couldn't give two hoots about pharma although I do quite like science, especially evidence based science.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:43 PM
link   

Antigod
reply to post by Rubinstein
 





There's lots of propaganda around and it's all too easy for people new to the topic to absorb without critical thinking


yet again... you patronising ignorant twit.

I thought it worthy of repeating.

I don't get more info from the news papers or pro vaccination sites or cdc . I read medical papers, written by medical researchers for medical researchers. I have a science background which has educated me to a level where I'm perectly capable of understanding them. I'm used to some pretty cut throat academic arguing with phds. You're not even close to a match to one of them, and not for me. And when I research a subject I do it properly. It's a skill you haven't developed. Apparently I acheived more in 2 years than you did in ten.

So you're claiming that all the published work by the researchers, that isn't meant for public consumption and is only read by other researchers, is there as misinformaton for he public? So I can infer that you believe eveything that disagrees with you this is faked? Why are so few publishing in support of your POV then? Your belief would mean nearly all medical researchers are intentionally deceiving practising doctors... or are most doctors in on it too?

You don't even know the mortality rates. I'd say that's a perfect example of a failure of critical thinking on your part.

Let me repeat myself... please dig up statistics on outbreaks that show no deaths in when thousands are infected.


You've forgotten the outright lies, fabrication and ignorance in his posts too.
Give him some credit....


Rubinstein
"Again, anaphylaxis is just one of thousands of complications which vaccines can cause.

edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:45 PM
link   
reply to post by Rubinstein
 





If you haven't looked for evidence then you'd be better not to assume that there is no evidence, I have looked so I am well-aware of the evidence. When you make black and white statements like the above, it shows that you're following a belief system rather than asking questions and investigating


I have MS. Vaccines as a cause are a non starter. MS existed before vaccines.

It's caused by over permeable membranes, facilitated by Zonulin. Lack of parasites seems to be the major trigger, as people treated with them go into near perfect remission.

Yet again, something you know nothing about Rube.



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 01:57 PM
link   

Pardon?

Tucket

Pardon?

Tucket

It is estimated that there is over 300000 births each day in the world. There's always a market for death. Yes, I think they are deliberately trying to kill people.
You know my stance on the vaccine element. Its not changing.


evidence won't change a belief,


edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)


Not true.. I used to believe that vaccinations were beneficial to people.. now I know better.

I understand why you have faith in Pharma, even though their drugs and vaccines etc perpetuate death, illness, and disease. The truth is unbelievable, especially if you work in healthcare.


I couldn't give two hoots about pharma


Really? You don't care about the companies that make the drugs and vaccines? You don't question their business practices and what their motives might be??

Wow.
edit on 3-12-2013 by Tucket because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 02:31 PM
link   

Pardon?


Deliberately being anti-vax is tantamount to child abuse.


Scare mongering and wild accusations is tantamount to lack of a better argument.
Deciding what is right for your children is tantamount to freedom.
Giving things to your children that you havent researched is tantamount to child abuse.
When all else fails and you start throwing accusations that are to paint people as "evil" is tantamount to losing an argument.
Not having a sense of humour, even during some of the darker subjects is tantamount to being "too damn serious".
So tell me please, how many small babies have died as a result of my "sense of humour"? Which I add is tantamount to expressing myself freely within the rules of the forum.
Dont cry mate, its only an opinion.
Have a tissue.
Take a break and come back when the emotional response can be replaced by rational argument, its tantamount to manners. Or you can just apologise and I will forget about it, but you havent apologised for anything so far, so I wont hold my breath.





posted on Dec, 3 2013 @ 02:41 PM
link   

Tucket

Pardon?

Tucket

Pardon?

Tucket

It is estimated that there is over 300000 births each day in the world. There's always a market for death. Yes, I think they are deliberately trying to kill people.
You know my stance on the vaccine element. Its not changing.


evidence won't change a belief,


edit on 3/12/13 by Pardon? because: (no reason given)


Not true.. I used to believe that vaccinations were beneficial to people.. now I know better.

I understand why you have faith in Pharma, even though their drugs and vaccines etc perpetuate death, illness, and disease. The truth is unbelievable, especially if you work in healthcare.


I couldn't give two hoots about pharma


Really? You don't care about the companies that make the drugs and vaccines? You don't question their business practices and what their motives might be??

Wow.
edit on 3-12-2013 by Tucket because: (no reason given)


Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
I'm talking in the context of this thread and in the context of your previous comment, "the faith in pharma" one.
I know very well what they get up to, some of their practices are abhorrent.
I know exactly what their motives are and that's to generate profits for their shareholders. That's about it really.
I also know a fair bit about drugs and vaccines and the clinical practices around them, which is the topic of this thread.
If your whole argument is based upon how corrupt pharma is and their master plan then I would suggest you start a new thread and convince everyone with the "truth" rather than derailing this one.
There's a good chance that I'll agree with some of it.



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