Paging, Piers Morgan: Gun Violence Explodes In England

Paging, Piers Morgan: Gun Violence Explodes In England

Paging Piers Morgan... Piers Morgan to the white courtesy phone....
Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

Piers Morgan can't stop talking about how England's extreme gun control laws make his case for what we should do in America, except, uhm... you know, the facts.

Click link for remainder of article...

I came across this article and thought I would post it as I have seen a lot of back and forth on this site between US Citizens and British Citizens.

While the numbers listed are paltry when compared to the same in the US, the fact remains gun violence is on the rise in Britain - To the point of Police Officers carrying them now.

The question - To those in Britain:
* - Does gun control work?
* - Is it common practice to rely on the government for protection from criminals (gang members / armed criminals)?
* - Do the numbers in the article sway your thoughts on your gun control laws?
* - If gun crimes continue to rise, would you be ok with relaxing gun control laws?
* - Would you guys please take Piers Morgan back ().

Thoughts?

ETA - Article is from Dec 2012 - still relevant though. When comprehensive crime stats are put together, its one year behind - IE crime stats for 2013 wont be available until 2014. I state this to ciear up possible confusion.

ETA - Mail - Origional source for Gun Control numbers used

The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official Parliamentary answers, do not include air weapons.

Does anyone know if these statistics are accessible thru any Government entity? I know here in the states the FBI puts together the total numbers.

UK Office for National Statistics

Xcathdra
Paging, Piers Morgan: Gun Violence Explodes In England

Paging Piers Morgan... Piers Morgan to the white courtesy phone....
Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

Piers Morgan can't stop talking about how England's extreme gun control laws make his case for what we should do in America, except, uhm... you know, the facts.

Click link for remainder of article...

I came across this article and thought I would post it as I have seen a lot of back and forth on this site between US Citizens and British Citizens.

While the numbers listed are paltry when compared to the same in the US, the fact remains gun violence is on the rise in Britain - To the point of Police Officers carrying them now.

The question - To those in Britain:
* - Does gun control work?
* - Is it common practice to rely on the government for protection from criminals (gang members / armed criminals)?
* - Do the numbers in the article sway your thoughts on your gun control laws?
* - If gun crimes continue to rise, would you be ok with relaxing gun control laws?
* - Would you guys please take Piers Morgan back (

).

Thoughts?

ETA - Article is from Dec 2012 - still relevant though.

edit on 20-11-2013 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

That article cannot be from Dec 2012.

The Labour Party have been out of office since May 2010.

This article was for December 2012 nearly 2 years ago! How is that relevant today? Gun crime has actually fallen now so please get your facts right before saying something like this.
We don't all walk around like John Wayne or Rambo here because we don't live in fear so don't require guns, we use our fists if attacked. Or here in Scotland, we give them a Glesga kiss. Look it up
Check this article from January this year out:

Police winning battle against inner city gun crime www.independent.co.uk...

alldaylong
That article cannot be from Dec 2012.

The Labour Party have been out of office since May 2010.

The article gathered information starting in 1998. It points out that gun issues became severe when Labour was in power.

I am assuming your Labor party would be the equivelant to our Democratic party?

Forgive me as I am not that familiar with your internal politics / platforms.

scotsdavy1
This article was for December 2012 nearly 2 years ago! How is that relevant today? Gun crime has actually fallen now so please get your facts right before saying something like this.
We don't all walk around like John Wayne or Rambo here because we don't live in fear so don't require guns, we use our fists if attacked. Or here in Scotland, we give them a Glesga kiss. Look it up

Uhm yeah... Hence the ETA to the bottom of my op. Crime stats for 2013 wont be available until 2014, since they have to collect the information from the entire year before putting the numbers together.

Next time please take some time to think your post through a little bit more. 2013 stats wont come out until 2014.

Semantics aside any chance I can get your thoughts on the questions asked? I am geniuinely curious about this topic and the impact of gun control laws in Britain (since our law enforcement / legal system came from you guys.

reply to post by Xcathdra


None of the figures in that article are sited or linked. Not saying they are not true its just hard to tell exactly what they mean by gun offenses.

As owning any sort of hand gun and almost all rifles , and shotguns without a a license (which is very difficult to get) are illegal in the UK then the majority of those 'offenses' will just be for possession and not actual shootings. It means some dumb criminals are successfully getting caught with guns. It gun possession is on the rise in the gang scene but it also seems the police are doing a very good job of catching them.

How many mass shootings (where 4 or more people are shot) do we have in the UK on a daily basis? In the US there is almost one every day. One of the points people in the US always bring up about gun violence is that 'its a lot of gangs shooting at each other' so if we apply the same logic to the UK then there really isn't a problem.

On the whole gun control is working here as we don't have seemingly normal people flipping out and shooting up schools full of children or theaters full of innocent people.

Also as the source article is from 2009 its not current and shouldn't be in the current event forum.

reply to post by scotsdavy1


It has nothing to do with fear, a common European misconception.


Coming from a country that actually fought off their English oppressors with guns, guns have become ingrained culturally to Americans.

Guns in American are like tea for the English, it's just part of who we are.


As to the op, quick we should send mister Morgan back so he can help England with its violence problem...


Despite what the news says violent crime has been on a constant decline in America over the past 30 years, so same argument you use applies to America.

Xcathdra

alldaylong
That article cannot be from Dec 2012.

The Labour Party have been out of office since May 2010.

The article gathered information starting in 1998. It points out that gun issues became severe when Labour was in power.

I am assuming your Labor party would be the equivelant to our Democratic party?

Forgive me as I am not that familiar with your internal politics / platforms.

Yes Labour are the same basically as your Democrats

The article quotes Shadow Minister Chris Graying. Being a Shadow minister means your are in opposition. Graying is a Conservative minister. The Conservatives have been in power since May 2010. Therefore the article has to have been issued before that date.

Well considering that School massacres/Mall/Movie theater shooting sprees are not a monthly occurrence in Britain I think most Britons are very happy with their current gun laws

On the last point first...I'm sure he's got American citizenship from the B.Obama shop of dodgy birth certificates so he's all yours...sold as seen...no refunds allowed...sorry we don't take back old stock...think you get the idea

Guns are hard to get hold of in the UK even on the black market for the the low end gang banger and then they're normally ones that are as likely to kill you as the target so you'll pay hundreds of quid for a gun and it'll probably come with 3 rounds of ammo, plus a lot of the firearms are deactivated/reproduction ones that are just for show or used to rob smaller places where they expect no fight back

Obviously the bigger gangs have the money to grease enough palms to get hold of pretty much anything, but really none of the gangs really want to push it too far as when pc plod turns up with automatics they know generally they've messed up as the police don't mind some gang on gang warfare but they don't want it breaking out

Shotguns etc don't seem as popular these days even when sawn off as a popular tool..poor old big vern from viz must be disappointed but are very easy to get hands on the black market as theres so many in circulation a certain amount always go missing/lost etc but they normally end up used for bagging a few extra ducks/rabbits than weapon of choice for more naughty stuff

Oh and did i mention Piers is your problem...i've heard the Atlantic has been mined and theres RAF fighters on patrol with orders to stop all aircraft with him from entering British airspace

benrl
reply to post by scotsdavy1

 

It has nothing to do with fear, a common European misconception.


Coming from a country that actually fought off their English oppressors with guns, guns have become ingrained culturally to Americans.

Guns in American are like tea for the English, it's just part of who we are.


As to the op, quick we should send mister Morgan back so he can help England with its violence problem...


Despite what the news says violent crime has been on a constant decline in America over the past 30 years, so same argument you use applies to America.

edit on 20-11-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)

The English were not oppressors.
Anyone i think you meant British. British includes Scots, Welsh and Irish, not just The English.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Taking into account some user posts, I have edited the origional post to include some more information and links.

Also, from the post above this one. I meant no disrespect if I got the names / entities wrong (UK / British etc).

reply to post by PhoenixOD


In America you are far more likely to die by cop than by terrorist or random mass shooting.

Over 5000 people have been shot by cops since 9/11, far more than have died by mass shooting or terror.

I am far more afraid of my government unchecked by citizens with a 2nd amendment, than I am of any fellow citizen even the crazy ones.

Labour are NOT the equivalent to the Democrats. They are more like the Conservative party here, but not as socialistic in their outlook ironically.

This issue has been argued to death. Firearms are counted differently cross the globe. What constitutes firearms in the UK and US differ substantially so its pointless comparing until you do a little homework first.

UK VS US Definitions of firearms and violent crime

reply to post by Xcathdra


The original article is from october 2009 from Mail online.

And every article I have read including the link from the independent show different numbers.

None of these articles directly source the numbers. One says the torries got it from "government sources." another said official government statistics without naming an organization.

This leads me to believe that you can't get the numbers. Wondering why that is until someone can get the actual data.

reply to post by scotsdavy1


yeah nicely said

Just chiming in with my opinion, I'll be honest I'm not good and facts and figures.

I do believe gun control is working to a certain degree. As Phoenix says you never hear of any mass shootings like you hear what goes on in he states. We do have a lot of knife crime though but if guns were made available I believe we would see a rise in gun related crimes

However, myself and my dad in the next few weeks are joining a gun club (he has just retired and I get bored easily). There's a few reason:
1. I enjoy firearms, the workings of them and the shooting
2. Just reading this site alone you hear stories of economic collapses etc, one day I may have to protect my home from looters etc
3. Almost the same as number 2, but after mike duggin (surname may be wrong) was shot in London by police and the aftermath was the recent London riots. I live on the outskirts of London and trouble was spreading out the city. So again for protection
4. I'm planning trips they may require firearms which will be used in the VERY LAST and I can't express this enough, the VERY LAST option. In case we come across any threatening wildlife

Looking into it briefly guns are wildly available depending on your license that you may get. Apparently I can buy a full bore rifle, I can own a .22 rifle, certain shot guns and black powder weapons.

And no I don't want piers back thanks

But as a whole .. No I don't think gun crime has increased especially I a way the thread title puts it

Offences involving the use of firearms peaked later than overall violent crime with 24,094 offences being recorded by the police in 2003/04. Since then the number of such offences has fallen by 60% to 9,555 recorded offences in 2011/12. The current 16% fall between 2010/11 and 2011/12 is the eighth consecutive annual decrease in firearm offences.

UK Office for National Statistics

so by the looks of it we're doing ok

We don't need guns here to have control. Yes we have armed response police in case some nutter has a gun and is needed to be arrested or whatever.
We don't have police shooting motorists for nothing, or killing anything that moves like your police do.
And why do you always call people in the UK, English? Complete insult to the rest of us here.
You have about as much chance go getting struck by lightning here before you see anyone with a gun.
Unless, you go to our airports and you will find plenty of our police openly carrying them.

PhoenixOD
Also as the article is almost 2 years old its not current and shouldn't be in the current event forum.

Actually it is current - see op.

Unless you guys have a department of future crimes.

As for your response thank you.. Question - If gun control laws are successful as you claim, then why do criminals have them? Why are police also being armed (albeit slowly)?

I guess what I am asking is how can gun control laws be considered successful when in the course of a decade gun crimes have almost doubled.

The other question I have is the purpose of Law Enforcement in the UK.

Here in the states law enforcements role is to protect society as a whole and not the individual. Is that the same there?