God is all-good, and there's no room for hell, in heaven.

This is what the cross teaches us - that God is all-good and that God can uphold the twin pillars of Justice, and Mercy, without making any compromise whatsoever with sin and evil.

Furthermore, there is no room in heaven for any bit of hell.

“No, there is no escape. There is no heaven with a little of hell in it - no place to retain this or that of the devil in our hearts or our pockets. Out Satan must go, every hair and feather.”

― George MacDonald

The Great Divorce - Free Download

It's a short story allegory that doesn't take a long time to read.

Only by reading it will you understand what is meant by the title and OP.

We may find it, at first, to be a disturbing and disquieting premise and there will be a revolt against it in the insistence of many that good and evil are two sides of the same coin and that God is both good and evil, it makes us feel better about ourselves. But, both sadly, and happily, it's just not workable.

If evil is permitted to contaminate the domain of God's eternal kingdom, then the opportunity to retain our humor and our joy will be lost.

This is a very difficult concept to grok but grok of it we must, lest the very best part of ourselves become contaminated by our worst part and we lose the greatest opportunity of them all, to be known and to know the one true God from whom Jesus was sent.

Heaven is for the courageous, for those willing to lose their life in order to find it again.

By your courage, may you find your way to heaven and to the smiling, loving face, of the all-good God.


Cheers,

NAM aka Bob (in all humility).
Your brother in Christ, no matter who you are or what you believe.

Of course, Laz rejects the existence of a place of torture in eternal fire, called "Hell." Even so, the story will be read.


OK, I clicked on the link, and just got a synopsis of the story. Is there a trick?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I keep hearing from some people who are older and much more knowledged and experienced in faithfulness to God that we are not perfect, and that [perfection is God only. Some say that everyone goes through the day with at least a slight negative, bad thought in their mind.

But God says that in order to enter his kingdom, one must be pure, and without a trace of evil, no matter how good and just you predominantly are.

Which one is it?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well, I don't believe in hell either, but according to the Old Testament, God's anger created hell.

Deut 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

I guess if God is capable of such anger, then there is room for hell in heaven!

bigman88
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I keep hearing from some people who are older and much more knowledged and experienced in faithfulness to God that we are not perfect, and that [perfection is God only. Some say that everyone goes through the day with at least a slight negative, bad thought in their mind.

But God says that in order to enter his kingdom, one must be pure, and without a trace of evil, no matter how good and just you predominantly are.

Which one is it?

For man, it is not possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, or even to see it from afar. However, with God, all things are possible, even to God Himself becoming All in all. God will (and is even now doing it) reconcile the entire created Cosmos to Himself.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm not sure that you read The Great Divorce, at least correctly -- it's one of my favourite books, and it fairly well describes Hell, though in a non-Dantian way.

C.S. Lewis' book explains, fairly clearly, why some people would choose Hell over Heaven, even when given the choice (something which Scripture doesn't say that we have, once we know that Christ is Lord, but for the purposes of artistic license, we may grant for Lewis.)

Hell is the rejection of God. Lewis' example is why people would reject God, even with full knowledge of what that rejection entails -- he does not preach universal salvation, in any way, which is what you seem to think he does.

Lazarus Short

OK, I clicked on the link, and just got a synopsis of the story. Is there a trick?

Yes, you have to click on the chapters to open them up one by one, it's a pretty quick and rather enjoyable if not absolutely hilarious read, but when I say hilarious I don't mean that in a flippant but only the gravest sense of word, yet it's not dark humor though either, not in the least. Outside of Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" which he dedicated to his friend J.R.R. Tolkien, it's got to be the best and funniest and most enlightening allegory I've ever read, like ever. It's scary good in the best possible way, imho.

reply to post by adjensen


Please don't assume what I got out of it. You dishonor me. Like Lewis states at the end of "The Weight of Glory" (another short, but totally AWESOME read) in order to enjoy the greatest merriment we have got to take each other seriously and give one another the benefit of the doubt. Don't assume anything whether because of my monicur or avatar or anything like that and I will pay you the same honor as a fellow Christian, no less.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


OK, thanks, I'll start the story, and post again when done.

bigman88
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I keep hearing from some people who are older and much more knowledged and experienced in faithfulness to God that we are not perfect, and that [perfection is God only]. Some say that everyone goes through the day with at least a slight negative, bad thought in their mind.

But God says that in order to enter his kingdom, one must be pure, and without a trace of evil, no matter how good and just you predominantly are.

Which one is it?

That is a great question and cuts to the heart of the matter where the resolution (radical transformative absolute forgiveness) becomes possible. That's the beauty of it you see, that it's a free gift born of love, an "unmerited grace", so it allows us to laugh with God at all our prior ignorance at the rate that we are able.. until all fear melts away in an absurdity of which we had no prior awareness. And therein resides the hand of God as the only one that is capable of wiping away the tears from our eyes IN our acceptance and reintegration in SPITE of ourselves! God knows us, intimately and sympathizes with our plight on every point and in every manner. He was one of us. But if I am right in my reading of the Gospels, the full life, the heavenly life, the resurrected life has existed in this world in the person of Jesus and invites us also to enter into it, and become like little children in a way, authentic, as we are, playful, more fully and freely self expressed. Joyful.

Therefore it's like an encouragement to be ever more courageous and fearless in beginning to enter into a better world even in spite of present or continuing surroundings or circumstances. "So be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world!" It's funny, when you really think it through all the way and process it or "grok" of it most fully. Then you might giggle and laugh again, but for all the right reasons, so both like a child and like an adult.

It's forgiven, you see. In a standard of justice and mercy as tall as heaven is long. There's nothing we can do about it, and why would we want to!

There may be no escape, on the one hand, but it's nice to know that on the other all the very best of the best that life, even from life to life in eternity has to offer, and hold in store, has been protected and preserved yet without fear of damnation and condemnation for our sins. Now THAT'S a "good one" like Big Time Huge!

It's like the best practical joke ever told in the history of time and space, as far as mankind and the devil is concerned, but at the same time due to the various machinations of "the evil one" even that which we might have adopted ourselves, to a degree - it's a very closely guarded secret, even Above Top Secret! because it's a conspiracy by God, at the devil's expense, that we are repressed from knowing, and because there is nothing that the devil cannot handle more than to be mocked and dismissed as irrelevant and absurd even ridiculous, so it's a joke that he definitely does NOT want us to "get" because to fully get it and recognize what's been done and what's been accomplished by God through Jesus Christ, is the end of evil, and the beginning of the good which never ends.

If you liked that story, and want more, here's another good one, it's absolutely genius in fact.

"The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis.

"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of
Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."—Luther

"The devill . . the prowde spirite . . cannot endure to be mocked."—Thomas More

So opens Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters (Download Here) which he dedicated to his friend and the one person he credits with his conversation from a reluctant atheism (he was mad at God for not existing), J.R.R Tolkein.

THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS

by

C. S. LEWIS

Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford

TO

J. R. R. TOLKIEN

www.truechristianity.info...

PREFACE

I HAVE no intention of explaining how the correspondence which I now offer to
the public fell into my hands.

There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the
devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to
feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally
pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same
delight. The sort of script which is used in this book can be very easily
obtained by anyone who has once learned the knack; but disposed or excitable
people who might make a bad use of it shall not learn it from me.

Readers are advised to remember that the devil is a liar. Not everything that
Screwtape says should be assumed to be true even from his own angle. I have made
no attempt to identify any of the human beings mentioned in the letters; but I
think it very unlikely that the portraits, say, of Fr. Spike or the patient's
mother, are wholly just.

There is wishful thinking in Hell as well as on Earth.

Lazarus Short

bigman88
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I keep hearing from some people who are older and much more knowledged and experienced in faithfulness to God that we are not perfect, and that [perfection is God only. Some say that everyone goes through the day with at least a slight negative, bad thought in their mind.

But God says that in order to enter his kingdom, one must be pure, and without a trace of evil, no matter how good and just you predominantly are.

Which one is it?

For man, it is not possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, or even to see it from afar. However, with God, all things are possible, even to God Himself becoming All in all. God will (and is even now doing it) reconcile the entire created Cosmos to Himself.

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.


23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “By human resources alone it is impossible but not for God because for God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Mathew 19:16-28

And as it turns out, the "camel" DID pass through "the eye of the needle".

And they were aghast and one of them exclaimed "Who then can be saved?!!!"

He gazed at them, and then said, without any hesitation "by human resources alone it is impossible, but not for God because for God all things are possible".

So it's safe then to laugh at ourselves in all our own prior ignorance and absurdity.

We must see the beauty and the wonderment, the joy and triumph in it, as something intended for us in our own resurrection, to be ok with it ie: that God is all-good and that there is no hell at all in heaven. And that too is funny. It's like the joke that just keeps on giving without ever losing it's mirth and joy.

So I can't wait to see the first person show up here in this thread to make every contention and appeal and argument and defense, to the contrary ie: "the devil's advocate". LOL!

NAM

reply to post by windword


According to Lewis, hell is locked, from the inside.

God was very kind to me in that the first serious "writing" about God I read was C.S Lewis(Jack).I'm not an intellectual and Jack was yet he wrote very common man.My fave allegories are The Chronicle of Narnia and the Space Trilogy then The Great Divorce.

Jacks perspective was definitely colored by the times although he was considered very radical and sometimes a heretic. However he very much wrote as a Church of England member and it seemed he had a very strong learning to a form of Universalism in his later writings of allegories.

In the Chronicles of Narnia book The Last Battle the character Emeth(faith) was an allegory for a Muslim who fought against the great Lion Aslan (Yahoshua) all his life and had deep faith in his God Tash. When he crossed over and came face to face with Aslan he immediately knew how wrong he had been and confessed his guilt to Aslan... .This is Emeth speaking about his meeting.

"Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be King of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me."

The doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell doesn't die so easily.Lewis hinted at this in other writings even in the Great Divorce but the real point is the doctrine of hell is not so cut and dry as man is saved and "goes to heaven"(another false doctrine) or is found guilty because of some religious act they didn't do and sentenced to the eternal punishment of hell.

Technically death is hell.Hades means the grave....the realm of the dead ..the ream of imperception... which is interpreted very poorly(through centuries of very bad teaching) into a "Dante" type hell.The punishment of hell is death.,,and everyone (including Yahoshua) dies.

These doctrines of heaven and hell have very little specific details written of them in scripture(because they can't be perceived in this realm) yet they are the most perverted of all the doctrines of men from the scriptures(especially hell.)

God dug a shallow furrow in me for a seed from the Great Divorce and a long deep one for seeds from the Last Battle and Emeth.What I got most from Lewis was ..he was just a man.A very,very good writer however I only have one source of Truth ..revelation from the father.Great art like Jacks or Mozart dug the furrows in my soil ..the seed is from God.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Imagine if we were in heaven but we held on to past negative memories, not trusting anyone, feeling the whole world is against us, where would we be [in our minds]? Hell.

Free-will, choice, not being stuck doing what you don't want, is happiness.


Happiness is the mind of true Paradise.


People belong to religions that say God doesn't like free-will and if you use it you will be tortured forever. That does not sound like the essence of love.


Either free-will is true or we are puppets enslaved by another being/force's destiny for us

bigman88
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I keep hearing from some people who are older and much more knowledged and experienced in faithfulness to God that we are not perfect, and that [perfection is God only. Some say that everyone goes through the day with at least a slight negative, bad thought in their mind.

But God says that in order to enter his kingdom, one must be pure, and without a trace of evil, no matter how good and just you predominantly are.

Which one is it?

You're correct man is not perfect because mankind was created that way.The fact is mankind is not "done" being made yet.Everything grows(even Yahoshua grew as a man) The translation meaning of perfect is "maturity" which in this case mankind is immature..imperfect..

Sin means to fall short or miss the mark of perfection (maturity).No one ever becomes "fully" mature .The standard is perfection (full maturity) of God.Salvation is the growth.That is why Yahoshua means God is salvation.Yahoshua is "the seed" sown into all humanity that is being caused to grow.Of course these are metaphors and can't understood fully because there is no exact parallel.It is the old thing done a new way.

In essence mankind is being born into the spirit realm of existence...the solid world that material (matter) is only a shadow of .That's why David called it the valley of the shadow of death.Mankind is either an egg that has not been impregnated by the seed, or has been impregnated and growing as an embryo, or growing as a fetus ,or being born as a baby.

That is the synopsis of one aspect of the parable of the soils (egg) and seed (sperm)..the many are called but few are chosen.The disciples where the few are chosen.They went through all the stages of the seed that was sown.They were the first (first fruits) to have Gods Kingdom "enter" their heavens.That is what Yahoshua meant when he said ..the Kingdom of God COMES without observation it is neither here nor there but it is IN your midst(soil).

All but the wayside soil has been sown with the seed.The different soils are the stages of growth.No one has entered the Kingdom of God (born) in the the physical realm except the apostles.They are the first fruits that all other seeds come from.This is a BILLION trillion light years from Christianity.

The doctrine that you are saying is not in the scriptures or even possible.Mankind is in the process of salvation by being formed in the womb of the earth.(the physical realm) .The beginning has not even started yet(being born)!The process of salvation is infinite.Man can never be "God".. perfection ...however God continually is growing mankind in Gods image.

In other words there's nothing to "worry" about.Everything is going fine.Mankinds "perception" of reality is very, very poor.They can see almost nothing.God knows how to make this all work just as planned.Mankind has no part in that "plan" but to receive it just as when they were conceived by their fathers spermatozoon and mothers egg and were formed in the womb.

If there is room for a place like Earth within the universe then there is room for a place like hell in heaven. In fact, I'd say the two are one in the same. We are in the proverbial hell right now, which the actions of those in power attest to, and our planet is in the proverbial heaven, which the perfection of the universe on the micro and macro scales attest to.

I think Jesus and any other prophet were pointing to where we already are when they spoke of hell. We have been mislead into believing in false gods for thousands of years by those in power and we see the affects of that today, we've turned Eden into hell on Earth.

adjensen
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Hell is the rejection of God. Lewis' example is why people would reject God, even with full knowledge of what that rejection entails -- he does not preach universal salvation, in any way, which is what you seem to think he does.

Well, come to think of it, it doesn't exclude anyone in particular by necessity except anyone who wanted to be excluded, and for all the wrong reasons of course.

Our Christian joy for heaven IS universal. Of itself and by it's very nature it excludes no one.

And after all, as an "exclusive club" or an "inner circle" were we ourselves not at one time on the "outside"?

It surpasses us then this invitation of all ages (not to say we didn't accept it), and extends its loving hand even in spite of ourselves as "Christians".

It's an inevitable and unstoppable epiphany/joke already told and circling throughout all the spheres. Best then that we learn to "get it" ourselves while it's still on the way before it comes back around full circle and bites us in the ass. That might not be funny at all when it's too late to laugh and our shame is inconsolable. What then can heaven do about that? Be held hostage by a tyranny of pity? Hardly.

And that's precisely the point of Lewis'; allegory, that fundamental point of heaven's break or "divorce" from hell.

But even if it does bite you in the ass where the last are first and the first, last, I am here to tell you and anyone who'll listen that even then in that heap of tears of sorrow and regret and bitterness or even a tantrum, that there is a loving, parental hand yet still capable of wiping away the tears from our eyes until you eventually smile and begin to laugh through those tears of shame and bitterness.

Heaven can pull people out of hell in other words and there is no a one to whom the good news was not preached.

And if anyone chose hell what is that to us?

It's rather nice actually by faith in Christ to know already that you can't even go there.

So it's not fear of hell that accomplishes anything but only the love of God.

And it's not that hell is so large that heaven has no room to contain it, no it's that there is nothing that is small enough in heaven to contain the whole of hell, it's that insignificant. Let us not therefore argue then either for it's size or how many souls it may contain. Don't wanna and don't need to go there, do we.

Just stream of consciousness to show not only that I read the book but that I really get the nature of the invitation, which is universal and all-inclusive, but that doesn't mean to say that absolute freedom does not reign, including the freedom of some, hopefully few, to actually reject God and heaven and choose hell, for all the wrong reasons.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


This universe, which is mortal, appears to be a reflection of heaven, which is immortal.

Heaven, as you'll note if you take the time to read the allegory, is what is entirely reasonable, and enjoyable, while hell is what is entirely unreasonable and in the end no fun at all.

The good has triumphed over the evil, without compromise.

We need not fear hell as a motivating driver then because it just doesn't go anywhere, and it goes there (nowhere) fast.

The problems of the world system are rooted in ignorance, at best, and an active satanic rebellion against God, for self-glorification (at the expense of others) at worst. Proof of this "conspiracy" is evident in every bit of exploitation and attempted misuse of the vital energies of the individual, and the masses.

We are all (including the "PTB") on our way, and pointing in one direction or the other, may we come to realize, every one of us, before we get there, what distinguishes the entirely reasonable, from the absurd, but you're right that as it relates to what is absurd and unreasonable, or just plain stupid, there is plenty of evidence. The data, is in on that score.

The final choice presents itself then to us all, to either work with God or against God, there is no middle ground (read the story).

The reason that there can be no hell in heaven is because there is nothing in heaven so small that it can fit into hell. It's a wonderful joke you see, so there's nothing to be afraid of if you have a faith even no bigger than the size of but a tiny mustard seed. Ha!

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


But you are right 3NL1GHT3N3D1, that the beginning of the end of hell, in it's diminishment here, represents it's end and diminishment anywhere if anywhere at all to begin with.

This is the Great Work of all Ages, and the very reason that Jesus was sent to us by God, not to condemn the world but so that, through Him, the world may be saved, at last.


There, I think my work is done here, thank God, maybe now I can set to work at making a proper living and taking better care of myself! [NAM, climbing down off the wall].