If not Obamacare, then what?

alienreality

Mamatus
[snip] ...I will NEVER buy Obamacare, rather pay the fine.

I won't even pay any fines.. screw them all, the entire thing is illegal anyways.. The entire thing is incredibly a pathetic joke that it boggles the mind into mental oblivion... [snip]

I'm with you and Mamatus. Unless the individual mandate is delayed, I will probably end up paying the fine the first year, but I'll make sure we won't have any refund coming the following years, and I will not pay it. In our case, my husband receives insurance thru his employer, but his employer no longer covers spouses and we can't afford the now $1200/month premium for me. (That's more than our mortgage payment -- including taxes and insurance!) Though his income is just under the subsidy limits, I couldn't get insurance on the exchanges even if I wanted it, because he does get insurance and they don't count spouses. Since I'm unemployed, technically, it would be my husband paying the fines. But that's not going to happen as long as there's a way around it. I refuse to be part of this debacle.

TheAnarchist

And why does Obamacare need a private security (read:police) force?

Good question... the only reason I can think of is to make sure we take our medicine -- whatever they decide that will be. What else would they possibly need to FORCE people to do? The overwhelming majority of people want to get better when sick. No force necessary. So what exactly are they expecting to have to force us to do? It's one of the biggest reasons that I fear a government run single-payer health care system. Too much room for abuse of power (and they have too much already!).

TheAnarchist

And why does Obamacare need a private security (read:police) force?

Good question... the only reason I can think of is to make sure we take our medicine -- whatever they decide that will be. What else would they possibly need to FORCE people to do? The overwhelming majority of people want to get better when sick. No force necessary. So what exactly are they expecting to have to force us to do? It's one of the biggest reasons that I fear a government run single-payer health care system. Too much room for abuse of power (and they have too much already!).

maddog99
I personally believe Obamacare is an unintentional blessing in disguise. Here's what I hope will happen and it just might...... [snip]

I too am hoping that Obamacare is a blessing in disguise, for all the reasons you cited, and a couple more. 1 -- I think people are starting to see thru the superficial propaganda and rhetoric, seeing the deeper causes of the problems, and therefore better understanding how to solve the root causes. But I also hope/expect that the fundamental law of supply and demand will make itself felt as more and more people are shut out of the conventional health care system and must find other options. They will look at alternate medicine and realize they have more options than they were previously aware. Both conventional and alternate medicine have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's far past time we integrated the two, rather than letting the allopathic field strangle its competition (for want of a better word). It's just one of many ways returning health care to a free-market would benefit us all.

kdyam
I like your ideas.

If you meant that for me, then I thank you... If not, then I'll just slink away and remove my foot from my mouth.

I also strongly agree with the fears about government run health care; especially with this narcissistic and sociopathic crew running things. On BOTH sides of the aisle!

OrphanApology
reply to post by maddog99

 

I don't know if it is unintentional though. I have gone into coma like deep thought trying to figure out how a politician would even undo the mess that Nixon started with his health insurance scam in 1973.

Thank you again! You got me intrigued and I did a little searching.

"Paul Starr suggests in his analysis of the American health care system (i.e., The Social Transformation of American Medicine) that Richard Nixon was the first mainstream political leader to take deliberate steps to change American health care from its longstanding not-for-profit business principles into a for-profit model that would be driven by the insurance industry. In 1973, Congress passed the Health Maintenance Organization Act, which encouraged rapid growth of HMOs, the first form of managed care."

Source: Yahoo

For those interested, I think she's talking about Nixon's "Health Maintenance Organization and Resources Development Act of 1973." I confess: I had never heard of it before. I need to read more before I comment on it. But it's not looking good...

Health Maintenance Organization (HMO)

KyoZero
It's been a long time since I posted here but I wanted to chime in again and join the fray

It's never been a secret that I am a Socialist. I would love to see honest-to-goodness free healthcare. I would be willing to pay more taxes to have it free for all.

[SNIP]

I love this country...I just wish we weren't so obsessed with our current failing system to allow socialized and free healthcare

I'm glad you did join us and I thank you for your service.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you about socialized single-payer healthcare. To me, ensuring that everyone has access to healthcare is a no-brainer for many reasons. But we have to live in the real world, and for me and so many people, we've seen how the congress critters taint, corrupt, and ultimately destroy virtually everything they get their dirty paws into, and the thought of letting them control our health care is even scarier than being left to fend for ourselves!

Vortiki
I don't know anyone, personally, that minded going to the doctor when they got sick, then paying the bill when you got it.

The doctors have always worked well with me on financing, now with this obama-snare crap, I'm being forced to pay for a private product I may not even need to use.

I say go back to how it was, you get sick, see the doctor, get your bill.

Yes, those were the days when Mom was our first and primary physician/nurse, and if we needed to go, we went and were happy to pay the bill (but of course it didn't break the bank then either.) Remember the days when mom didn't take you to the doctor unless you were bleeding AND unconscious? By the time I had kids, people looked at me like I had three eyes if I didn't take them in for every sniffle and bruise. Just look where it's gotten us: We now have MRSAs and whatnot because antibiotics were mis-prescribed and over-prescribed, medical malpractice and pharmaceuticals are leading causes of death, and our health is now "managed" but not healed.

reply to post by Boadicea

One word Canada

TheWrightWing
If not Obamacare, then what?

There is a reason vehicle insurance is dirt cheap: Interstate Competition.

Ins. co's across the whole country are competing for your business.

Democrats say the GOP resists Healthcare Reform and Has No Plan! An article of faith, unsupported by fact of course.

Conservatives have long called for Tort reform and real market competition in healthcare, resisted at every turn by, guess who? Democrats.

I have yet to hear a good reason why they resist it, in their own words.

The real reason is obvious: Trail lawyers are massive Dem donors, as thanks for vaguely worded, bad laws that keep lawyers wealthy, and interstate commerce has the disadvantage of not needing armies of tax fattened government bureaucracies who vote to expand government ever more.

Unless, some one knows of a better reason I am not aware of?

In my experience, it is very difficult to find a lawyer who will take a medical malpractice case unless you've been grossly maimed or killed, so I tend to think the tort reform is based on a relatively few wildly exorbitant settlements, as opposed to high numbers of lawsuits. But I'm not sure. Anyone know?

However, I wish I could give the Republicans as much credit as you do. Yes, they've been giving it lip service, but I have yet to see any real effort to pass tort reform, neither at the state nor federal level. I would love to see them prove me wrong, but I suspect this is one more example of how each "side" takes their public stand on an issue for political expediency but with no real intention of taking action.

Mamatus
The USA has had a system in place for YEARS that works. It's called Medicare/Medicade. All that was needed was to issue each person a number (and reasonable bill) for a system that already exists.

However this plan had one fatal flaw. It would put all health insurance (for profit) companies out of business. Since lobbyists work for them so does Government. So this, despite being the easiest and simplest way to move to National Health care, is NEVER going to happen.

Freaking Insurance companies need to make PROFIT. Personally? Screw them and screw any plan that is not equal for all across the board. I will NEVER buy Obamacare, rather pay the fine.

Medicaid sucks, but since you've never had to use it, of course that's your opinion. That crap don't work and absolutely is a nightmare to find a damn doctor that's going to take it and impossible to find a dentist. If you ever had to use it you'd know what a POS scam it is.

Yes indeed.... Repeal the ACA .aka: Øbama -Care



put a referendum to the people...



where they have just 2 choices;

1: free market Health Policy system as it was before the "Øbama Intervention"...but with a few refinements

2: Single-Payer system, where everyone is covered in a universal 'Medicare-Medicaid' type of govt. health system

then sink-or-swim with the results....


seeing as how the present ACA Law is expressly Designed as a "Transfer-of-Wealth" program
and has very little to do with preventive or catostrophic health situations...

the Only reason that lots of doctors or dentists don't participate in Medicare is because the potential patients don't generally take care of themselves & why make 20cents on the dollar charged that the medicaid program pays out.... i think that the Doctors and other health professionals look at the bottom line instead of even coming half-way to doing their Hippocratic Oath....


Health-Treatment is a Prescription Drug Culture not a health centered industry


'affordable' care will need to be pro-rated to the new employment norm of $7 hr and 25 hours per week.
the insurers are giving the 'mandated' people policies for a 60 hour @ $29 per hour wage as the standard
~if a roof over your head is ~50% of your income, then a 'mandated' medical policy should not suck up the other 50% of your paycheck Mr Øbama ... get real you fake Ivy League educated bozo

1) Make Health Care Providers tax exempt. The reason you are charged $200.00 for an  office visit is so that the Provider can write off the $120.00 that insurance/Medicare/TRICARE does not pay.
2) Apply the Balanced Billing Act to all Medical Charges. (Look it up). All allowable charges will be base on Medicare amounts.
3) Re institute the local "Health Department" for uninsured bene's. staffed by Physicians Assistants and supervised by Residents and M.D. via technology.
4) Allow the uninsured (4) Office Visits at 100% per year then apply an income based fee for additional, non-well, visits.
5) The uninsured will forfeit any IRS refund.
6) Lawsuit settlement levels will be defined. Liability Insurance rates will be based upon number of Patients bill. This liability Insurance premium  will cap at a determined level and reduce on a scale determined by Patients seen in excess. The premium at this point will be supplemented by tax dollars. 
Workers get coverage, the uninsured are insured and Providers are reimbursed.

reply to post by Boadicea


Well if you're curious...first start with this clip which was by Michael Moore, a man so stupid he couldn't even figure out that supporting the AHA was supporting the same mess in this video...but I digress:

www.youtube.com...

To go into further explanation the Health Maintenance Act of 1973 it was the beginning of a shift of health insurance as being the primary finance vehicle for healthcare. It also was the beginning of employer tied insurance that completely removed consumers from shopping(best price fixer on the planet). Between the health maintenance organization acts, insurance companies, employers...not only could people not shop for the best policies, they had no idea about the prices. They had no idea about the doctors. And they had no power to fire doctors, to shop around, or to put their foot down.

Take a guess what happened to both quality of care and the prices of procedures and medicines.

Traditionally, health insurance works like any other types of insurance in that people pay for policies that have fairly low premiums and that cover catastrophic and rare events. Much like car insurance, the traditional health insurance worked in the same way.

The current system does not work without government laws. First, if actuaries use mathematics to determine a premium based on the risk in a group, the only model that works while keeping premiums low is the high severity/low frequency model. This is true of ALL insurance.

Insurance is great at doing what it does best but paying for everything is not one of them. Insurance companies are great at handling high severity events that are rare. They have lawyers, customer service agents, middle men, doctors, and a plethora of other people and systems at their disposal. Those same systems also drive up the costs of routine procedures if insurance is the finance vehicle for those procedures. Imagine what would happen if your car insurance company paid for oil changes.

There is also another issue that has completely removed the consumer from the process and essentially made many slaves to certain jobs at large corporations. That is the tax incentive of employer tied insurance. One which needs to be eliminated immediately. There should be no such thing as employer tied health insurance, unless it is a company paid policy for catastrophic care...much like life insurance through employers. For routine care, all tax benefits should removed and shifted toward the consumers. Also, the requirement of employers to provide insurance should be removed as well. Immediately.

You can barely find minimum wage full time jobs anymore because of this mess. It's completely insane.

OrphanApology
reply to post by Boadicea

 

To go into further explanation the Health Maintenance Act of 1973 it was the beginning of a shift of health insurance as being the primary finance vehicle for healthcare. It also was the beginning of employer tied insurance that completely removed consumers from shopping(best price fixer on the planet). Between the health maintenance organization acts, insurance companies, employers...not only could people not shop for the best policies, they had no idea about the prices. They had no idea about the doctors. And they had no power to fire doctors, to shop around, or to put their foot down.

Take a guess what happened to both quality of care and the prices of procedures and medicines.

[snip]

Insurance is great at doing what it does best but paying for everything is not one of them. Insurance companies are great at handling high severity events that are rare.

edit on 20-11-2013 by OrphanApology because: d

I remember when "they" started pushing the virtues of HMOs... I think that may have been when the vilification of doctors began. So many accusations of doing unnecessary tests and procedures to pad the bill. We were told that the on-site bloodwork and labs was costing us so much extra and should be done by an independent lab. But in my experience, HMOs have been a disaster. I lost two excellent doctors in the 90s because they just couldn't deal with the insurance companies dictating what tests and procedures could be performed, which medications could be prescribed, and on and on. The lifelong family doc was gone, as we had to use doctors in their plan, which was (as you noted) increasingly determined by your employer. I even told him I'd find a way to pay out-of-pocket to stay with him, but he was done. Having had and known and loved our family doctors over my life, and benefiting from the trust and continuity of care by one person familiar with with our medical history, I find this current shuffling of patients with no real chance to build a relationship very disturbing. Our healthcare is too important to just pass us around like a doobee.

As others have wisely noted, there are more and more middle-men jacking up the price (enabled and empowered by government) and providing little in increased value for the consumers.

redoubt
reply to post by Boadicea

 

If not Obamacare, then what?

The biggest thing is something that is rarely addressed; the middle man that stands firmly between the patient and the healthcare provider.

I can attest to this. In my current profession, 'distributers' make bank off providing someone else's tools/ supplies. And they whine when they make less than 50% profit. Maybe I'm just jealous.

reply to post by Boadicea


Here's a stunning idea...
If YOU need healthcare, YOU pay for your healthcare. Free market policies should present themselves in the form of competition among insurance companies. Unfortunately, health care hasn't been free market in decades, basically since LBJ first presented Medicare and Medicaid into the mix. The complete lack of responsibility shown by lawmakers in capping frivolous malpractice lawsuits is another major reason costs rose as they did (at least prior to Obama's new law which escalated the cost increases dramatically).

If we returned to the old days when it was possible for a small town doctor to hang his shingle and practice medicine without having to fear over multi million dollar lawsuits over bullcrap, THAT would be a wonderful start to reclaiming medical freedom in the US.

What really pisses me off with the whole thing is essentially this analogy: Some people would rather pay for two bottles of milk, keep one and pour the other on the ground than for someone who can't afford the other bottle get to use it.

In our previous system we paid 3x the average European national healthcare costs (per person), and had MUCH lower standard of care. Now it's even worse..... you gotta be kidding right?


We should be charged the costs plus a percentage of course which is necessary to buy new equipment, sustain the system etc. obviously. UK doctors make a very good living yet they work in a system that is not profit-based.

Profit and healthcare are just not compatible because having a gun to your head (threat of dying from disease) is not a FREE market. I am a capitalist but I am not so stupid that I can't see the obvious conflict.

burdman30ott6
reply to post by Boadicea

 

Here's a stunning idea...
If YOU need healthcare, YOU pay for your healthcare. Free market policies should present themselves in the form of competition among insurance companies. Unfortunately, health care hasn't been free market in decades, basically since LBJ first presented Medicare and Medicaid into the mix. The complete lack of responsibility shown by lawmakers in capping frivolous malpractice lawsuits is another major reason costs rose as they did (at least prior to Obama's new law which escalated the cost increases dramatically).

If we returned to the old days when it was possible for a small town doctor to hang his shingle and practice medicine without having to fear over multi million dollar lawsuits over bullcrap, THAT would be a wonderful start to reclaiming medical freedom in the US.

Problem is we don't live in the 40's anymore. Walmart and healthcare operating on the same principle will (and did) end with the same result.

You're missing one very crucial thing here: Healthcare CAN NOT operate as a free market any more than slavery was a free market employment scheme! If you can't afford it you're free to die???

Look, I'm about the furthest thing from a communist, but when it comes to healthcare we as a nation need to treat it as any decent family would and work to help one another. Believe it or not, a healthier population is a happier population and health+happiness make for a much more PRODUCTIVE nation.

I am a firm believer in free market principles for anything elective in your life, however I don't consider staying ALIVE to be elective. Also proper regular healthcare avoids people acquiring futile last minute emergency care which ends up saving ME, YOU and everyone BILLIONS!!

When you analyze the reality of how it affects the nation, your opinion amounts to: "F@ck everyone else, I don't care about living in a happy productive USA, as long as some jerk doesn't get something free EVER, I'm happy!!"

I know you don't mean it like that, but it works out like that. Would you ever pull out $5 at a traffic light wave it toward a bum, and then ball it up and throw down the storm drain in front of him?

All of us who pay for the corrupt insurance/healthcare racket in this country are buying billionaires private jets while rubbing the uninsured's noses in it. It's pathetic.