A Heat Pump Is an Overunity Device?

Arbitrageur
The more scientific way is to just use the specs for the aux heating coil for your calculations which probably are close, or if you want to be more precise, you can attach a special meter to your heat pump to calculate the energy inputs with and without the aux heat.

I'm trying to figure out what consumers need to know before they even buy a heat pump.

How should manufacturers of heat pumps be required to represent their data?

Scientists know how to break this stuff down in a meaningful way, correct?

Mary Rose
Is the term "overunity" used?

I used google to search their website and "overunity" brought up nothing but "efficiency" brought up pages and pages.

Is overunity reaching higher than efficiency, or do some people use the two terms interchangeably?

Mary Rose

Arbitrageur
The more scientific way is to just use the specs for the aux heating coil for your calculations which probably are close, or if you want to be more precise, you can attach a special meter to your heat pump to calculate the energy inputs with and without the aux heat.

I'm trying to figure out what consumers need to know before they even buy a heat pump.

How should manufacturers of heat pumps be required to represent their data?

Scientists know how to break this stuff down in a meaningful way, correct?

Not at all. Scientists are great at making complicated and overcomplicated wording, presentations and papers. Marketers are good at breaking down the laymen expressions and disseminating it to the public.

That is how things work. Good to know before you try rewiring the whole system. I think your confusion is that big companies aren't out there using terms like "Sub polar over unity heat magnification pump reservoir" and making it sound like something new fangled enough to peak your interest.

It is quite obvious you are drawn to marketing jive.

This is quite possibly the most important sentence you have read on this forum… Marketing mumbo jumbo and and actual science backed information is nothing alike. You are continuously getting tricked by marketing jive.

Kind of like someone who's fresh into fitness, picks up the enthusiast magazine and sees some bodybuilder in a lab coat and he's named Dr Fred, -gasp- he's not really a doctor.

When they speak about "efficiency" and "energy efficiency" related to home heating, they are not talking about COP or Thermodynamic efficiency, they are in fact speaking in marketing lingo, where efficiency is based off a completely different equation.

This is a market statistic:

Efficient energy use, sometimes simply called energy efficiency, is the goal to reduce the amount of energy required to provide products and services.

No science there. (well, kind of there is. But it is basically a layman expression).

en.wikipedia.org...

The most important line:

Energy efficiency and renewable energy are said to be the twin pillars of sustainable energy policy[4]

policy. Policy is not science.


The following is an example of a marketing/advertising explanation:

Mary Rose

Mary Rose
Is the term "overunity" used?

I used google to search their website and "overunity" brought up nothing but "efficiency" brought up pages and pages.

Is overunity reaching higher than efficiency, or do some people use the two terms interchangeably?

Over unity is a marketing word, created by people selling perpetual motion machines. If you search a definition you will be linked back to perpetual motion. Eventually, perpetual motion fell out of favour because people know that its attachment to anything = 100% scam.

Over unity in its roots, is a hypothetical construct. It's very description says it will not work. The same as perpetual motion:

perpetual motion
n
1. Also called perpetual motion of the first kind motion of a hypothetical mechanism that continues indefinitely without any external source of energy. It is impossible in practice because of friction
2. Also called perpetual motion of the second kind motion of a hypothetical mechanism that derives its energy from a source at a lower temperature. It is impossible in practice because of the second law of thermodynamics

But anyone invested will say that it is different, over unity is blah blah blah. It is anything with a COP greater than 1. Sorry, but it isn't. Something with a COP greater than 1 is a something with a COP with a greater than 1. There is a scientific theory to back that term. Just as there is scientific theory to back terms like efficiency, etc.

Over unity on the other hand, is nothing more than a marketing term. Mumbo Jumbo. Jive.

Mary it would be helpful for you to understand the nature of professionalism and personal opinion. As in:

A lawyer can sit around having beers with the prosecutor, but once they are in the courtroom they have to act their parts. A scientist, can host a talk radio show saying how he believes personally that there were no dinosaurs (I've actually met these people) or that aliens are abducting his wife, etc… but when he gets into the lab, he has to conform to standards laid out in the scientific method for his work to mean anything, and he knows this.

In the world of advertising (been there done that) we like to play on words, take advantage of people's ignorance, use authentic looking words, terms and fictional creations like they are the same thing coming out of a courthouse or a million dollar lab, and we dumb it down just enough.

Haisch, who you have posted about in other threads is a perfect example. He promotes his little nano-Casimir contraception and he writes books and speaks at conferences, but in his scientific papers he makes no such claims. He has many cited works and even in his personal ventures he limits the amount of BS in anything that isn't totally marketing data. (I have noticed he gets a little liberal at omitting certain information but you can't blame him since he's going after funding.)

This is the respectable way of doing things. The others are either delusional or flat out frauds. And they aren't hard to find.

Lawgiver
. . . the air pumped out by heat pump is always less than 98.6 degrees f. even though a heat pump will circulate air to the median temp of 78-82 degrees as set by thermostat, the heated air from the vents will always feel cold against the skin.

78 - 82 f. sounds too high to me.

Room temperature is more like 72 - 74 f. I thought.

Arbitrageur
ETA: I'd suggest reading the manual for your heat pump to see if it talks about the aux heat mode. Mine had a little light that came on when the aux heat was engaged. If yours has a light like mine did you can look at it when it gets cold to see if the light ever comes on or not.

I live in a condominium and don't even own the heat pump; it's owned by the association. Also, we have an energy management system, which I believe is separate from the heat pump itself, and that complicates the issue.

I had not searched Wikipedia for “overunity” before today. Now I see it redirects to “Perpetual motion.”

Arbitrageur
For the umpteenth time, it's COP over 1, which is not overunity, because the additional heat comes from outside the heat pump.

Why are you obsessed with the word overunity? Isn't the COP over 1 good enough for you? We already acknowledged it's an energy "superstar" if conditions are favorable.

So, now I see that even on the Performance curve, which is meaningful instead of COP, one still cannot refer to a heat pump as overunity, even when the heat pump is a “superstar,” because mainstream science says it’s a perpetual motion machine, and they don’t exist.

That is absolute crap.

reply to post by Mary Rose


I don't even...

What's the emoticon for banging your head against the wall??

Mary Rose
I'm trying to figure out what consumers need to know before they even buy a heat pump.

How should manufacturers of heat pumps be required to represent their data?

Scientists know how to break this stuff down in a meaningful way, correct?

Boncho wrote a good answer.

I went on Trane's website and they have a link where you can find out what you need for heating and cooling based on certain inputs:

www.trane.com...

I tried zip codes in Maine, Florida, and California, and they always recommended something that will add the most to their bottom line profits, not necessarily what's best for the consumer's monthly expenses. Why am I not surprised? They sell heat pumps but in all cases they recommended a more expensive separate air conditioner and furnace unit, I'm guessing because they make more profit on the separate systems because then they sell two instead of just one.

Like Boncho, I know some insider information on marketing gimmicks.

So I don't think you can rely on manufacturers, distributors or their marketing. The best defense is to educate yourself so you can see past the shenanigans. They can't lie too blatantly, but they can sure stretch the truth a lot.

The con artists you like to follow to are pretty good marketers in many cases too, with their use of attractive buzzwords, but I think they went a little over the top with “The Flux Thruster Atom Pulsar Electrical Venturi Space Time Implosion Field Generator Coil.”

Arbitrageur
So I don't think you can rely on manufacturers, distributors or their marketing.

We should be able to rely on the government to protect the consumer, but since the government is almost totally corrupt, we're out of luck there, as well.

reply to post by Mary Rose

So, now I see that even on the Performance curve, which is meaningful instead of COP, one still cannot refer to a heat pump as overunity

Sure one can, but not in a rational or meaningful way.

even when the heat pump is a “superstar,”

Perhaps you could graph that one. Where exactly would superstar fall on the overunity scale. If you don't mind, please include the pistol shrimp for comparison.

because mainstream science says it’s a perpetual motion machine, and they don’t exist.

Link?

That is absolute crap.

Agreed. So why did you post it?

Mary Rose

Arbitrageur
So I don't think you can rely on manufacturers, distributors or their marketing.

We should be able to rely on the government to protect the consumer, but since the government is almost totally corrupt, we're out of luck there, as well.

Eventually they will shut down the bigger fraudsters.

Manufacturers say things like "We have the best product in the marketplace" even if they don't, because it's a non-specific claim in a legal practice known as "puffing".

But if they say "Our unit is 10% more efficient than any competitor's unit" they better have data to back that up because that's not a legal claim without good supporting data.

The government does try to do something for the consumer with the standardized test methods in certain appliances which allow consumers to compare energy efficiency of AC systems, or Heating efficiency of heating systems from different competitors, so they help us with that. They also award tax credits for energy systems they are trying to promote, which in some cases might include heat pumps. Maybe they could do a little bit more, but you actually don't want them meddling too much.

reply to post by DenyObfuscation


You haven't been following this thread, have you?

How about reading it?

Also, read the "The Atmos Clock: Perpetual Motion Machine" thread.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Governments are bought and paid for by corporate and financier interests and that's who they answer to.

Mary Rose
reply to post by DenyObfuscation

 

You haven't been following this thread, have you?

How about reading it?

Also, read the "The Atmos Clock: Perpetual Motion Machine" thread.

Been pulling my hair out so to speak for days now trying to think of ways to explain these things to you in a way that YOU will understand and accept. I'm not sure it can be done.

The post I just replied to is just too much.

Mary Rose
So, where does overunity kick in on that curve?

Arbitrageur
For the umpteenth time, it's COP over 1, which is not overunity, because the additional heat comes from outside the heat pump. (Umpteenth means I lost count of how many times you've been told this).

Why are you obsessed with the word overunity? Isn't the COP over 1 good enough for you? We already acknowledged it's an energy "superstar" if conditions are favorable.

Overunity kicks in because there is an energy “superstar,” but it’s not overunity.

That is very much like Orwellian doublespeak.

Mary Rose
I have to get the terms defined in a reliable way.

What is your definition of overunity?

Arbitrageur
Isn't the COP over 1 good enough for you? We already acknowledged it's an energy "superstar" if conditions are favorable.

Mary Rose
Does the heat pump put out more usable power than it took to run the thing, or not?

Bedlam
No. A COP>1 does not imply an efficiency > 100%. . . . you can't interpret COP > 1 as overunity, because that's not what it's telling you.

If you had a perfect heat pump and a perfect heat engine, you would extract exactly the amount of energy out that you put in.

So, COP over 1 should be good enough to acknowledge that there is such a thing as a "superstar," but not to indicate efficiency.

reply to post by Mary Rose

So, COP over 1 should be good enough to acknowledge that there is such a thing as a "superstar," but not to indicate efficiency.

It's a "superstar" in terms of efficiency relative to other less efficient methods. That also is highly dependent on the temperature of the air around the unit.

Think about this also. What if the heat pump unit were placed inside your condo? How "efficient" might that be? Not very efficient at all.

Again, what is your definition of overunity?