A Heat Pump Is an Overunity Device?

reply to post by Mary Rose

For the umpteenth time, it's COP over 1, which is not overunity, because the additional heat comes from outside the heat pump. (Umpteenth means I lost count of how many times you've been told this).

Why are you obsessed with the word overunity? Isn't the COP over 1 good enough for you? We already acknowledged it's an energy "superstar" if conditions are favorable.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I don't believe Bedlam agrees with you. But I could be wrong.

Arbitrageur
reply to post by Mary Rose

 

Why are you obsessed with the word overunity? Isn't the COP over 1 good enough for you? We already acknowledged it's an energy "superstar" if conditions are favorable.

Adult: Pick up your toy.

Five Year Old: What toy?

Adult: Black toy?

Five Year Old: This toy is red. Red toy.

Adult: Black toy.

Five Year Old: No red toy.

Adult: Okay pick up your red toy.

Five Year Old: It's not a toy, this is suffed a limos.

Adult: Okay so pick up your "suffed alimos".

Five Year Old: Pick up the black toy?

Adult: I thought your toy was red?

Five Year Old: I have to go pee.

Arbitrageur
reply to post by Mary Rose

 

For the umpteenth time, it's COP over 1, which is not overunity, because the additional heat comes from outside the heat pump. (Umpteenth means I lost count of how many times you've been told this).

Why are you obsessed with the word overunity? Isn't the COP over 1 good enough for you? We already acknowledged it's an energy "superstar" if conditions are favorable.

It's obvious Mary is confused about COP. Which is why she was asking basic thermo questions half thread in and not even addressing COP discussion.

If she doesn't know, or is even unwilling to learn the basic principles of thermodynamics, she is obviously miles away from trying to understand what coefficient of performance is.

Just tell her the "over unity" kicks in when the COP goes over 1.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Arbitrageur
For the umpteenth time, it's COP over 1, which is not overunity, because the additional heat comes from outside the heat pump.

Are you saying that heat coming from the environment instead of from electricity is never, with any device, not just heat pumps in a cold climate, a reason for the device to be classified as overunity?

Arbitrageur
Why are you obsessed with the word overunity?

Because my interest is in making this a better world with free energy devices. I have to get the terms defined in a reliable way.

reply to post by Mary Rose


You'd have to have a curve showing the EFFICIENCY going over 1, not the COP. COP != efficiency, for about the third time.

Mary Rose
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

I don't believe Bedlam agrees with you. But I could be wrong.

Nope, that's what I've been telling you since the top of the thread. COP is not efficiency. COP > 1 is not overunity.

EFFICIENCY > 1 (or more than 100%, either way you want to view it), would be overunity but COP is not efficiency. Remember way back about 6 pages of posts ago when I told you that's not what COP told you and you accused me of quibbling over definitions? Well, it's not a quibble. COP is not efficiency.

Bedlam
You'd have to have a curve showing the EFFICIENCY going over 1

Is the Performance curve posted an efficiency curve, or is there another convention for showing efficiency?

reply to post by Mary Rose

Because my interest is in making this a better world with free energy devices. I have to get the terms defined in a reliable way.

Forget going to school, learning math, experimentation, so long as you got the terms down! I believe this is how the life of a free energy salesman starts. Once they get the terms down they can start selling the idea!

Mary Rose

Bedlam
You'd have to have a curve showing the EFFICIENCY going over 1

Is the Performance curve posted an efficiency curve, or is there another convention for showing efficiency?

When comparing the performance of heat pumps, it is best to avoid the word "efficiency" which has a very specific thermodynamic definition.

**

You don't calculate efficiencies for heat pumps, you calculate COP. If you calculated efficiency, technically you would have to describe the system which includes the Sun, the pump, whatever is powering the pump, etc.

If you want true efficiency for the thermodynamic system of a heat pump, it is probably something like, 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000013333 efficient.

Some special companies make "net zero" houses but the problem is they would put the utility companies out of business or hurt there earnings really bad so they don't make them main stream. It's apparently better to make homes that aren't all that effecient so the grid sees record profits.

reply to post by boncho


System: Sun

We get the astonishingly huge amount of 400 trillion trillion watts (from the sun)

Black coal (NSW & Qld) 24-30 MJ/kg

To start you out on efficiencies, here you are. Now take however much energy the heat pump is putting out, I think your first one was 4KW or something?

Now, all you have to do is calculate exactly where 4KW stands up to 400 trillion trillion watts, and then factor in something like a .3 efficiency from coal, and you are all set.

Not sure on the actual math but it should look something like incomprehensible number or expression, then you take that and figure out how much your 4KW takes out of it.

Voila.

Efficiency!

spartacus699
Some special companies make "net zero" houses but the problem is they would put the utility companies out of business or hurt there earnings really bad so they don't make them main stream. It's apparently better to make homes that aren't all that effecient so the grid sees record profits.

No it isn't. Highly efficiency houses are out there, some that actually make money selling back energy to the grid. The problem is it costs anywhere from $20-40,000 to install these systems.

And the price is not an attempt at "suppression" (before anyone mentions it) it simply costs a lot to build these systems. If they were cheap, someone would be trying to exploit that market the same.

The reason you see gas oil and coal everywhere is because 100 years ago people would find it accidentally, seeping out of the ground just waiting to be used.

So, in an extremely cold climate, using the above illustration, the 2kW coming from the environment creates an additional expense to the consumer, over and above what's already accounted for in the 1kW of electricity in. But in a more temperate climate, it doesn't.

Am I saying that right?

How is the amount of electricity needed because of the cold climate differentiated though? Simply by watching your bills go up? How is it identified scientifically?

reply to post by Mary Rose

How is the amount of electricity needed because of the cold climate differentiated though? Simply by watching your bills go up? How is it identified scientifically?

Canada.

spartacus699
Some special companies make "net zero" houses but the problem is they would put the utility companies out of business or hurt there earnings really bad so they don't make them main stream.

I've never heard that term before.

All I see by googling it is a brand name NetZero but it's not what you're talking about.

Do you have a link?

Mary Rose

spartacus699
Some special companies make "net zero" houses but the problem is they would put the utility companies out of business or hurt there earnings really bad so they don't make them main stream.

I've never heard that term before.

All I see by googling it is a brand name NetZero but it's not what you're talking about.

Do you have a link?

It is technically called Zero-Energy Building.

Zero-Energy Building

Here is a link to the Canadian Net Zero Energy Home Coalition

I would provide others, but I am not familiar with the non-Canadian NetZero community.

Mary Rose

spartacus699
Some special companies make "net zero" houses but the problem is they would put the utility companies out of business or hurt there earnings really bad so they don't make them main stream.

I've never heard that term before.

All I see by googling it is a brand name NetZero but it's not what you're talking about.

Do you have a link?

Zero Enegy Building

A zero-energy building, also known as a zero net energy (ZNE) building, net-zero energy building (NZEB), or net zero building, is a building with zero net energy consumption and zero carbon emissions annually.[1] Buildings that produce a surplus of energy over the year may be called "energy-plus buildings" and buildings that consume slightly more energy than they produce are called "near-zero energy buildings" or "ultra-low energy houses".

I am very much interested in knowing what grade of school you last completed. I know you are into the whole "Ignore Boncho" thing, which you proclaimed a half dozen threads ago because I offended your idol Bearden, but I'm dying to know the answer!

Why can't we just get along Mary, hell, I will join forces with you and we can tap the ZNE energy grid! FREEEEEEEEE EEEEEENEEERGY

peck420
Here is a link to the Canadian Net Zero Energy Home Coalition

Thank you very much.

Is the term "overunity" used?

"Efficiency curve"?

Mary Rose

So, in an extremely cold climate, using the above illustration, the 2kW coming from the environment creates an additional expense to the consumer, over and above what's already accounted for in the 1kW of electricity in. But in a more temperate climate, it doesn't.

Actually the heat pump has an aux heat mode, which in my unit was like a larger industrial version of an electric toaster or electric oven coils...if the heat pump couldn't get enough energy from outside because it was too cold outside, the heating element wires would heat up and then it's no longer an energy superstar but largely a simple electric heater, trying to squeeze out tiny bit of heat from the -20C outside temperature, while getting most of it's energy from electric heating coils. I could watch my spinning electricity meter start to spin very, very fast when that aux heat kicked in.

How is the amount of electricity needed because of the cold climate differentiated though? Simply by watching your bills go up? How is it identified scientifically?

Yes, if the aux heat runs enough your bills will reflect it, though if it just runs briefly you might not notice much in your bill. The more scientific way is to just use the specs for the aux heating coil for your calculations which probably are close, or if you want to be more precise, you can attach a special meter to your heat pump to calculate the energy inputs with and without the aux heat. In my case I wasn't quite as precise but watching the meter actually works pretty well, provided you keep all other electrical appliances constant when you make the comparison, to make sure the only change you're seeing is the aux heat.

You can even calculate your precise usage by timing how fast that dial spins. However my spinning electric meter was replaced with a digital model not too long ago and I haven't had any occasion to see if I can make the same measurements with the new meter or not. I'll have to take a closer look sometime.

ETA: I'd suggest reading the manual for your heat pump to see if it talks about the aux heat mode. Mine had a little light that came on when the aux heat was engaged. If yours has a light like mine did you can look at it when it gets cold to see if the light ever comes on or not.