Man lets himself die while having faith that God will heal him

FlyersFan
Well.... the poor man gets 'the Darwin Award' for this week.
I can't mock him. Anyone of us could easily have mental health issues
or get indoctrinated into cult like beliefs that are wonky.

And if he had mental health issues, he could have been treated for that as well.

But alas, so many mentally ill people do not seek treatment. It's available, if you can afford it.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Why is genocide wrong for religious people, but OK for science? How many inhumane experiments should continue until science gets it right? All we have learned in anatomy was from gravediggers not only selling bodies, but killing people in order to sell them. But science reconciles that with understanding today anatomy. But should a person have been killed, just so science can learn?

If you really knew the inhumanity of Nazi science experiments, then I would think you would be opposed to that ever happening again. I am opposed to it, and I will say so. Don't ask me, as a human being, to turn away from inhumane treatment of people. My religion dictates that I am my brother's keeper, he's not my science experiment. And the Act of God, then you don't really know what my God has said.

Did you know Hitler was a Christian? Explains a lot about what the Nazis did with science, doesn't it? Should I quote the numerous references he made to following God's divine plan?

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited." - Munich speech

"In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day."

"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."

Here's an excerpt from his program:

We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.

It would appear that science, which has no mind of its own, was guided by a system that did have a mind of its own. Science is only an arrow. We are the archer. And because you insist on pushing the Nazi button, I've just revealed to you the secret of science's worst creation. A self-professed Christian is responsible for the research that gave birth to the atomic bomb, the systematic destruction of almost an entire people, the psychological mutilation of a country and the perversion of everything we recognize as human.

I don't care if you recognize him as a true Christian or not. In each Christian's eyes, they are a true Christian. And that's all that matters. As long as the conviction exists, they will spread their gospel. That's why 4,000 variant versions of the same singularly absolute truth exist. And just because you don't recognize his work as gospel, doesn't mean others don't.

Science didn't create Nazism. Can you guess what did?

reply to post by WarminIndy

why don't you go out and pay someone's medical bill so they can be treated effectively. Then we won't have any reason to feel bad anymore.

I believe this is what the ACA is all about.....and the conservatives don't like it one teeny weeny bit.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Eventually, they will meld and transform into something that isn't quite science or religion.

^^THIS^^

AfterInfinity
Science didn't create Nazism. Can you guess what did?

Brilliant insanity coupled with the people being angry over WWI and the Treaty of Versailles; propaganda blaming the Jews for all the problems; the people felt better with a scape goat and someone to beat up; finances and international financial dealings; failure of the Weimar government of Germany to fix problems so people looked elsewhere, and Hitlers rhetoric made them feel good so they bought it; ....

reply to post by WarminIndy

But alas, so many mentally ill people do not seek treatment. It's available, if you can afford it.

Sorry, Indy, but INCORRECT. It IS available. Community Mental Health Centers operate as 501c3 organizations. They have trained, educated therapists available to EVERYONE, regardless of ability to pay.

Same with this man's initial injury - EVERY state/county has a general hospital that is free and available for those in need who 'can't pay.' They ALL have qualified doctors (many are teaching university hospitals), and also interns and residents. They have State of the Art tech and knowledge.

THEY ARE OPEN to the public, indigent or not.

This guy's wife enabled his suicide.
That's all there is to it.

reply to post by wildtimes


Uh...he never said it wasn't available. I'm surprised at you, Wild. You're usually so sharp on these things.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Exactly. But Indy wants to blame it on science. Whatever.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I don't care if you recognize him as a true Christian or not. In each Christian's eyes, they are a true Christian. And that's all that matters. As long as the conviction exists, they will spread their gospel. That's why 4,000 variant versions of the same singularly absolute truth exist. And just because you don't recognize his work as gospel, doesn't mean others don't.

Science didn't create Nazism. Can you guess what did?

edit on 16-11-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I am going to point out this...if you haven't read the book Hitler's Table Talks then you know he said that only in a ploy to get the Christians on his side. He was not a Christian. That is something you need to understand.

What does "Heil Hitler" really mean? Can you tell me?

And the same thing is said today "Heil Obama, the savior of America". Same thing. Even when George Stephanopolous caught him in that. And yes, Obama said on air on ABC. Do I need to replay that video as well?

In the eyes of Christians, no, we do not accept someone who is not really a Christian. We do not accept people posing as Christians. Do you understand that? No, you fail to grasp that.

And self-professing does not make a Christian. Christianity did not create Nazism either, and I think you really should read that book. But Nazis used science for their advantage.

Here is the link for the free book, so you don't have to buy it...Hitler's Table Talks 1941-1944

Here you go, what Adolph Hitler, the man himself said about Christianity

The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegtitmate child, both created by the Jew.

The man was not Christian, just because he says in a speech to gain support does not make him one. Now, would you like to know his views of science? All there, in his words, that you need to read.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Whatever. Again, science did not create Nazism. Science was used by Nazism, just as it is used by virtually every group intent on leaving its mark, whether that mark be benevolent or malevolent. As far as I'm concerned, your argument is weak and narrow. The axe being used to behead innocents does not make the axe evil. It makes the person who wielded it evil. Similarly, just because one axeman goes on a murder spree does not mean every person carrying an axe is a killer waiting to happen.

Believe what you want to. I can't stop you. But I'm done trying to convince you. See you around.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

[s]he didn't? Are you sure?
Here's what I said in response to Indy's post:

It's available, if you can afford it.

What I'm saying is that it IS AVAILABLE, whether or not you can afford it.

wildtimes
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

But alas, so many mentally ill people do not seek treatment. It's available, if you can afford it.

Sorry, Indy, but INCORRECT. It IS available. Community Mental Health Centers operate as 501c3 organizations. They have trained, educated therapists available to EVERYONE, regardless of ability to pay.

Same with this man's initial injury - EVERY state/county has a general hospital that is free and available for those in need who 'can't pay.' They ALL have qualified doctors (many are teaching university hospitals), and also interns and residents. They have State of the Art tech and knowledge.

THEY ARE OPEN to the public, indigent or not.

This guy's wife enabled his suicide.
That's all there is to it.

I know and I agree. I live two blocks away from the mental health clinic in my town, and many people in my building use it. So I know about mental health services, but on the other hand, the people that I see needing won't avail themselves of it, and use finances as their main excuse.

I found the $300 charge ridiculous as well and I mentioned that he could go to a clinic. But the initial excuse was, that they could not pay the $300, so that's the first issue, the fact they used it as an excuse instead of going to a clinic, which I am sure is available in South Carolina.

But the $300 may have been for a specialist, which he would have been referred to. And good luck getting into see a specialist that quickly. I have to see neurologists and can't miss a single appointment, otherwise I can't see them anymore, I have to find a new one.

I know the ins and outs of specialty medicine and how much it costs. Do you know this, that neurologists charge $275 office visit, for 15 minutes of their time. The actual cost of the visit is only $80, and that's easy to pay, but they add more charges. Yes, Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance are being gouged by this. I have been on both sides of the coin, I know what is going.

No matter how much the government says it is fixable, it is not. I am what is referred to as a "patient for life". So it's in their best interest to keep people like me in our condition. That's what they do. Not one neurologist has even offered to me the same medical treatments that MS patients have in Sweden. Can I afford to go to Sweden? No, but the same treatments are not available to me here. So I understand this person's financial situation. They probably couldn't afford the gas anyway. They sounded very impoverished to me.

That's part of the problem, it is one thing to be able to get to treatment, it's another when you can't afford get there in the first place. So my suggestion was one of practicality. We want people to be treated, but how to get them there?

Fortunately for me, I have resources available. But not everyone does. And that's what we have to look at. It's not enough just for the ACA insure people, but consider their financial situation.

There are so many aspects not considered in these cases. I am sure when you make a doctor's appointment, you are able to get there yourself. So imagine that you have no car and only $20 for an entire week. But this man and I don't have the same mentality, I go to the doctor. And a new thing is happening in health care, doctors are starting to set up clinics within public housing buildings because they have seen the under treatment. And yes, that is a huge problem, but they are trying to work with it.


I agree with you that the wife was at fault. There is no doubt. But if they needed medical help, why didn't their neighbors help either? As wonderful as the ACA sounded to people, it is not going to do a blessed bit of good if people won't get themselves up and use the medical help available. You are going on the presumption that people actually use medical services. Just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. And just because mental health clinics are there, does not mean the mentally ill avail themselves of therapy.

If you totally remove the financial excuses, which I was pointing out that people use, then how will we achieve a whole and healthy society?

wildtimes
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

[s]he didn't? Are you sure?
Here's what I said in response to Indy's post:

It's available, if you can afford it.

What I'm saying is that it IS AVAILABLE, whether or not you can afford it.

edit on 11/16/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

He is a she, just to clarify.

I think we should look at this man's death as a tragedy. Whatever was going on their minds we really don't know. We can only look back on it and give our opinions.

Indy is not opposed to going to doctors, I think we have established that much. And I think AfterInfinity thinks I have something against science, absolutely not. The issue I have is not with science, as it has done wonderful things, but I think as rational humans, with intelligence, if we don't address those who have used it for bad means, but then lay the charges against another group is disingenuous. And that's what I am trying to say. Science does carry with it morality, every scientist needs to realize that their work can be used for wrong purposes. But to absolve all scientists, for the sake of advancement of science, we have to count the human cost in this.

And that's not what I have seen. As much as Indy believes that religions have evil people in them and have done evil things in the name of religion, Indy is not absolving them. Not even the Christian ones. But if it is broken down to the basic fundamental source, it is a human problem.

I have been told that I am not Christian because I refuse to absolve evil people within Christianity, but why in this teeter totter, is Christianity bearing the weight of total humanity's problems, even those scientists? Maybe I am a new type of Christian, or maybe I am looking at the original Christianity.

I have been told that I am not a real Christian, by non-believers, because I don't hold to doctrines created by a man. I do not believe that one man holds spiritual authority over another. And I don't believe that the name of anything held by man can ultimately save mankind, when mankind has been conditioned to believe that at the height of mankind's existence, they have total authority over everything wielding that authority with an iron fist or with the bright shining science that has been used for genocide.

It's a matter of the heart of the person, going against truth and having no love for their neighbors. It doesn't matter if the person is religious or secular, holding doctrines of religion or science, if their hearts are not right, then they should be made accountable. That's the point about religion and science, humans control both.

reply to post by WarminIndy

And if he had mental health issues, he could have been treated for that as well.

But alas, so many mentally ill people do not seek treatment. It's available, if you can afford it.

One of the most common symptoms of a mental disorder is denial. This man didn't think he had a mental disorder, thus all the bible reading and "faith" that God would heal his physical illness, when really, he was sick in the head, and so was/is his wife.

If anyone would have given 2 bits about this guy, he would still be alive.

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

And if he had mental health issues, he could have been treated for that as well.

But alas, so many mentally ill people do not seek treatment. It's available, if you can afford it.

One of the most common symptoms of a mental disorder is denial. This man didn't think he had a mental disorder, thus all the bible reading and "faith" that God would heal his physical illness, when really, he was sick in the head, and so was/is his wife.

If anyone would have given 2 bits about this guy, he would still be alive.

edit on 16-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

And that's my point. Did any of his neighbors think to drive him to the hospital? Did they ask their neighbors for help? What about family members?

This is the world we live in. People have become so cocooned in their little world, they can't see what is happening just next door. Perhaps the man had to have some faith in God because he knew people didn't care about him.

We also don't know this man's life prior to this, what if he had been a real jerk that used to beat his wife? We don't know so don't assume that, but how would we feel about him then? That would change our perspective of him.

Ariel Castro was a nice man to everyone in the neighborhood, had barbeques with them, drove the school bus and was well-liked....but he had three girls chained up in his house for 11 years. When he died, not one single person mourned for him, not even the former neighbors who thought he was a nice guy. But suppose the girls had not been rescued and the nice guy died of a heart attack.

We change our perspectives according to what we think a person is like, not like they really are. We are outraged because a man "prayed" and "had faith", so that means he was mentally ill? No, the mentally ill part was in the giving up.

Many people pray and have faith every day, while their children are in the hospital. We can't say they are mentally ill, because they pray and have faith. See, it's our perspective. But I have to ask, what about people who pray and have faith in other forces and energies and do things to cause an effect? What if the man had been trusting the great energy out there to heal him and interpreted Tarot cards to say he would be healed and trusted that? Would that make him less mentally ill?

reply to post by WarminIndy

What if the man had been trusting the great energy out there to heal him and interpreted Tarot cards to say he would be healed and trusted that? Would that make him less mentally ill?

LOL! Nope!

It's not the man's faith that I criticize. It's his and his wife's mental health. Faith had nothing to do with his condition. Rain falls on both righteous and sinner, right?

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

What if the man had been trusting the great energy out there to heal him and interpreted Tarot cards to say he would be healed and trusted that? Would that make him less mentally ill?

LOL! Nope!

It's not the man's faith that I criticize. It's his and his wife's mental health. Faith had nothing to do with his condition. Rain falls on both righteous and sinner, right?

I question his mental health as well.

However, I'm not the one on here who is equating Christianity with mental illness. And who is, when they make comments about "praying" and "having faith in God"?

Would our conversation be the same if the man believed in Tarot? Would you defend his use of Tarot? But if I mocked him for Tarot, equating that with mental illness, wouldn't you be up in arms against my charge?

If it is about mental illness, then perhaps the step back would be to not insert the idea that it was because he was a Christian, instead one should say "The man had mental health issues not related to his religion". But that wasn't said. So the charge has been made repeatedly that it is a Christian problem.

If the man were Pagan, then no Christian would be allowed to say he was mentally ill. If the man were Wiccan, same thing. But because he read a Bible, claimed to have faith in God and prayed, then he's mentally ill according to the charge. Right?

But the issue of religion was placed by the OP because the OP wanted to criticize Christianity. But if I post an article about a Pagan doing a harmful thing, then what would you do to defend the Pagan, or would you dismiss the person's affiliation with Paganism and say it has no bearing on the accusation?

And all along, the jabs have been about Christianity, of which we don't even know if this man were a lifelong follower of, and we don't know the denominational affiliation he was even in, or even if he had ever gone to church.

Fair is fair, wouldn't you think?

But I haven't heard anyone say..."Christians also built hospitals", "Christians also use science to heal" "Christians also run food banks and homeless shelters". Nooo, that can never fit in with "Christians are ignorant, barbaric monsters who do evil things". But the accusation then gets down to "he was mentally ill because he had faith and prayed to God".

I say his mental illness was in giving up. And no Christian ever is taught to give up. Fight the good fight of faith, that means never give up on what is good and what is hoped for. That doesn't mean to take up arms against our neighbors, it means to hold on in hope. This man gave up, because he didn't have wisdom to go to where help was at. And his wife, gave up as well. But let's just blame it on Christianity, when this man obviously had limited understand and knowledge of scripture.

Faith is the substance of all things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. He didn't have faith, he only had the idea, and that's a huge difference.

reply to post by WarminIndy

However, I'm not the one on here who is equating Christianity with mental illness. And who is, when they make comments about "praying" and "having faith in God"?

I'm not equating Christianity with mental illness. Mental illness isn't prejudice, denial comes in all flavors.

Consider this parable:

God Will Save Me

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”
epistle.us...

reply to post by windword


In answer to your parable...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


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