Thousand-year old crusader rises from the earth

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posted on Nov, 15 2013 @ 06:44 PM
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Mods If this is in wrong forum please move..

In Finland we had a story of archeological found in Janakkala, which is same time a rare and peculiar find. Two Archaeology hobbyists were using metal detectors and got lucky, after some small finds they found a spear tip and their detectors kept they digging more, so they found ax blade and soon after that small part of the sword when they decided to call Finland's National Board of Antiquities which came and took care of digging the grave open professionally.



In this grave they found cadaver in very well preserved ( not yet digged out ) and two swords.

Peculiar is that the one sword is crusader sword from 12th century and the other one is a viking sword couple centuries earlier, both swords were buried with him.

The Viking sword had been burnt like it was a custom in Viking burials and they believe its inherited. The body is about 5 feet and 11 inches tall.
Grave Find ( in English)


Rare Crusade-era grave site

Upon further investigation the find turned out to be both rare and valuable. Researchers found a grave dating back to the Crusade-era 12th century. The cadaver had been extremely well preserved allowing researchers to use new techniques to harvest information that would not have been previously possible. On top of all this, the find was a rare two-sword grave, in other words this traveller had two swords to accompany him on his journey into the afterlife. As a bonus puzzler, the swords originated from different historical periods. “There were two swords, one on top of the other, the smaller of which was a Viking-era artifact. There is now speculation that it may have been in a fire. In other words, it may have been an heirloom that was in a cremation fire. So that’s a rare combination. It’s one of the longest swords in Finland, from the crusade or medieval era roughly,” said the NBA’s researcher Simo Vanhatalo, who led the dig last week. In addition to the swords, an array of tools had been provided for the dead traveller, including a spearhead and an axe blade. The remains indicate that the dead adventurer was a strapping 180 cm tall man who also carried his own 120-cm sword dating back to the period of the Vikings or Crusades.


Im looking forward what else they can tell about this find when they have studied it more, maybe it explains some folk stories of Northern crusades.




posted on Nov, 15 2013 @ 07:07 PM
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Hey thanks. Pun/no pun. Thanks for digging this up.



posted on Nov, 15 2013 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by dollukka
 


Did he win the chess game or not?

That's what this reminded me of, that movie. Did he beat Death? Apparently not, he lost that last game.

That sure was some find by those hobbyists. Seems hobbyists really are important when it counts...



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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I do some metal detecting every now and then myself, and sometimes I envy those who live in countries that are shrouded in history. The United States, where I live, only has a widespread history going back two or three centuries, and therefore there is not as much to be found in the earth as there is in places overseas.

This is an amazing find. Just think of all the treasures and wonders lying below the earth around the world, just waiting patiently for someone to come along and find them. The monetary value of such treasures alone is probably staggering, not to mention the sheer historical value.



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by JiggyPotamus
 


I would disagree with you on this one....just because our history books say so? Look up Pyramids in the deep south, Georgia, etc...or the Southwest ancient writings and legends.




posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by dollukka
 


Holy mother of god that is awesome.



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by dollukka
 


What a great find!

I wonder if the area surrounding the dig site will yield any other interesting finds.

~Tenth



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


They believe there are other graves so we will find out. Can´t remember which news i read when they speculated about at least two other graves ( maybe more ) close this one. What i forgot to mention is that crusader sword has some writing in it and it will be x-rayed so hopefully writing will be seen then.
edit on 16-11-2013 by dollukka because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by dollukka
 



What i forgot to mention is that crusader sword has some writing in it and it will be x-rayed so hopefully writing will seen then.


It would be amazing to see the story of this person and why they were buried with a viking sword along side their own crusader one.

Or perhaps it's a viking who took a crusader's sword as a trophy? A big old claymore like that is certainly something worth having on teh battle field. Although as short as the body is claimed to be, it doesn't seem like it would be very functional.

~Tenth



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


oops i believe i have feet and inches wrong its 5.9 .. this can happen at the late hours. 180 cm is an average male height in my country these days. but i believe people were shorter in average back then. ( im 5.11 lol )
edit on 16-11-2013 by dollukka because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by dollukka
 


To think we actually have a chance to look at a Viking sword purposely burnt at the burial. Thanks for this interesting discovery, grave robbery, and alerting us to this historical find. Eric the Red, he would be proud of ye, aye.
edit on 16-11-2013 by Aleister because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2013 @ 08:01 PM
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as long as no one goes digging around in lapland burial mounds during christmas, bad things can happen.
as seen in this instructional video:


edit on 16-11-2013 by demongoat because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 03:41 AM
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I love these kinds of finds.


JiggyPotamus
The United States, where I live, only has a widespread history going back two or three centuries, and therefore there is not as much to be found in the earth as there is in places overseas.


This is because indigenous societies in North America did not use metal smelting or alloying. Their metal use was limited to basically copper that could be found easily and that they cold hammered. Therefore, the metals you find with your detector will be primarily from the time of European colonization.



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 04:05 AM
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reply to post by dollukka
 


That was very interesting.

I suppose I had never thought of Finland as being part of the crusades, but I suppose it was. I guess we all learn something new everyday! Thank you for sharing this. Cool Viking sword!



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 04:15 AM
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JiggyPotamus
I do some metal detecting every now and then myself, and sometimes I envy those who live in countries that are shrouded in history. The United States, where I live, only has a widespread history going back two or three centuries, and therefore there is not as much to be found in the earth as there is in places overseas.

This is an amazing find. Just think of all the treasures and wonders lying below the earth around the world, just waiting patiently for someone to come along and find them. The monetary value of such treasures alone is probably staggering, not to mention the sheer historical value.

Also one of my hobbies, and I did find a nice Crusader ring, belonged to a knight of the holy grave



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 04:01 PM
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tothetenthpower

It would be amazing to see the story of this person and why they were buried with a viking sword along side their own crusader one.


It ought to be stressed a bit more that the greatsword was not necessarily a crusader sword, just from that era. I believe the jury is still out as to whether or not this individual participated in the Crusades. From what I read in the article, a few things strike me as interesting which have not been mentioned. First is that grave goods are an exceedingly rare find in Christian burials, much less an entire panoply of weaponry. For example, most Vikings were not Christian, and so were buried with grave goods, but I know of no case even among the vikings that the full panoply of sword-spear-axe were found in a single grave, as was the case in this one.

My own speculation is that this individual was probably not a Christian per se - or at the very least not a "strong" one - since at that time the Church frowned upon grave goods as a pagan practice, and paganism was still a open sore to the church, a fresh "danger", to be stamped out. I can almost see a village priest having a coronary over some cat thinking he'll need a sword in the Christian heaven, much less two swords, a spear, and an axe!

It looks to me more like the grave of a professional soldier - i.e.a "mercenary", which most armies were composed of at the time. The era of "citizen soldiers" had not yet come, and most fighting men were itinerant professionals, marching towards the sounds of the drums and the clash of steel to ply their avocation. Now, he may have participated in the crusades, but I'm not sure who would have paid him to do so. That does not, however, preclude the possibility of his participation. Going on the evidence of the grave goods, I think it unlikely that he participated out of any sense of Christian "duty", however - mercenaries fight for money. it's how they eat and keep a roof over their heads.

The presence of the viking sword is interesting. If, as seems likely, it was an heirloom rather than a functional item at that point, having been burnt, it may indicate descent from a viking. It appears that the fighting trade may have run in this man's family.



Or perhaps it's a viking who took a crusader's sword as a trophy?


Unlikely, as the Viking Era ended a century or so before the Crusades began, and was a mere shadow of it's former self even then.



A big old claymore like that is certainly something worth having on teh battle field. Although as short as the body is claimed to be, it doesn't seem like it would be very functional.

~Tenth


180 cm, which the article gives as the man's height, works out to just a hair under 5' 11" (5' 10.867"). 120 cm, given as the length of the greatsword, works out to about 3/4" short of 4 feet. Now, I am 6' 2" tall, just 3" or so taller than this man, and have a claymore that is a bit over 4 feet long which I can sling around fairly handily - i.e., I've yet to get tangled up in it or lop off any of my own body parts with it. It's a matter of knowing how to work it, which back in that day they had formal schools in the subject, complete with text books which have in some cases come down to us to this day. From the ground, you work a greatsword somewhat differently than you do a regular broadsword. The blades are generally dulled for a part of their length to "choke up" on them and use them in a two handed manner, rather than single handed, and all parts of it are used, rather than just the blade. The handle and pommel, for example, are used to strike as a cudgel, and the cross guard can be used to hook and pull an opponent off balance for easier dispatch.

With that said, however, greatswords were originally developed for use from horseback. War horses in those days were great big brutes. What are now called "draft horses", along the lines of Clydesdales and Percherons were originally bred big to bear the weight of a fully armored knight, not to pull a plow as they are now used for. The greater sword length gave greater reach from up there, and so was not quite the disadvantage one would at first assume for smaller folks - they actually gave a greater advantage, and let the wielder reach out, reach out and touch someone!


edit on 2013/11/17 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Christianization started in Skandinavia somewhere between 8th and 12th century. To Finland christianity came from both sides, east ( Russia ) and west ( Sweden ). There have been graves from 8th century which have crucifixes. The difference in northern land and christianization is that when christianity arrived the ecclesiastical laws were not introduced. Graves without any goods started later. In Finland earliest graves without goods are dated to 11th century.


When christianized Kings started to turn people to christianity it was " Follow the Christ or Die". The message was adopted later.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 06:42 PM
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nenothtu

It ought to be stressed a bit more that the greatsword was not necessarily a crusader sword, just from that era. I believe the jury is still out as to whether or not this individual participated in the Crusades. From what I read in the article, a few things strike me as interesting which have not been mentioned. First is that grave goods are an exceedingly rare find in Christian burials, much less an entire panoply of weaponry. For example, most Vikings were not Christian, and so were buried with grave goods, but I know of no case even among the vikings that the full panoply of sword-spear-axe were found in a single grave, as was the case in this one.

sorry but read the article again, it doesn't say anything about the person being a crusader, it says the sword was a style of sword manufactured in the crusader-era, ie:10 century to 12th century. along with a "viking-era" sword, from about 8th-10th century. i think you need to read it again, you might have overlooked the use of the term viking and crusades was purely used to place the era via the weapons.

it took finland up to the 13th century when sweden invaded them to become fully christian, the only crusade was the swedes killing the "pagan" finns. also the conversion from christianity wouldn't be that hard when it came to burial they did burial and cremation, all that changed was where the person went when they died and whether the living would get haunted by the dead.


My own speculation is that this individual was probably not a Christian per se - or at the very least not a "strong" one - since at that time the Church frowned upon grave goods as a pagan practice, and paganism was still a open sore to the church, a fresh "danger", to be stamped out. I can almost see a village priest having a coronary over some cat thinking he'll need a sword in the Christian heaven, much less two swords, a spear, and an axe!

not in finland, maybe in other places, the finns had no problem with christianity since they already buried their dead too, and the church really didn't see much of a difference between burying them with or without weapons.



It looks to me more like the grave of a professional soldier - i.e.a "mercenary", which most armies were composed of at the time. The era of "citizen soldiers" had not yet come, and most fighting men were itinerant professionals, marching towards the sounds of the drums and the clash of steel to ply their avocation. Now, he may have participated in the crusades, but I'm not sure who would have paid him to do so. That does not, however, preclude the possibility of his participation. Going on the evidence of the grave goods, I think it unlikely that he participated out of any sense of Christian "duty", however - mercenaries fight for money. it's how they eat and keep a roof over their heads.

no where does it talk about him being a crusader. i doubt he was a mercenary, most likely he was a high ranking elite, that is why you see the weapons, in in finnish culture two edged weapons indicated prestige, since both fire relates to both metal working and death. so the guy might have been very important to the community.



The presence of the viking sword is interesting. If, as seems likely, it was an heirloom rather than a functional item at that point, having been burnt, it may indicate descent from a viking. It appears that the fighting trade may have run in this man's family.

he was most likely a leader of the community. weapons were a sign of power to the people in the area, it's not a viking sword it was a sword made in the 8th-10th century or the "viking-era". more than likely it was locally made.
if he lived up to around 1250 he did fight against crusaders, namely the swedish second crusade.



Unlikely, as the Viking Era ended a century or so before the Crusades began, and was a mere shadow of it's former self even then.

the first one was in 1096, 30 years after the end of the viking era, so not really, by the time the crusade begin it was just starting to wind down.


With that said, however, greatswords were originally developed for use from horseback. War horses in those days were great big brutes. What are now called "draft horses", along the lines of Clydesdales and Percherons were originally bred big to bear the weight of a fully armored knight, not to pull a plow as they are now used for. The greater sword length gave greater reach from up there, and so was not quite the disadvantage one would at first assume for smaller folks - they actually gave a greater advantage, and let the wielder reach out, reach out and touch someone!

well given this isn't a crusader and more than likely an enemy of one, i'd say he learned from his brothers or father, and the sword weighed 2.5 pounds it was not as heavy as people think. of course this may well be a burial sword, it's were the myth that swords that size were heavy, because when they found the graves, it was thought people used those honking heavy things. they weighed like 25 pounds, who could swing a 25 pound sword for hours? the heaviest sword was at most 7-8 pounds. oh and no, these swords were used on foot, they needed the reach to kill men on horse back, why in the world would people on horseback need a 4 foot two hand sword? a long sword is a heck of a lot more useful and you can use a shield. no, the huge swords were used by people on foot for reach.
by the way, they were not using full plate in the 12th century, and it's again a misunderstanding that armor weighted a lot. they would not need huge horses back then, they used ring mail or chainmail. plate didn't become used till the 16th century and only the jousting armor weighed enough to justify huge horses, most of the war armor was 30-40 pounds at most.

it's hard to find info on iron age finland, until they were conquered by the swedes they didn't even write stuff down.
there also needs to be more info on medieval armor and weapons, all i find is crap about replicas.
edit on 20-11-2013 by demongoat because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 06:54 PM
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dollukka
reply to post by nenothtu
 


Christianization started in Skandinavia somewhere between 8th and 12th century. To Finland christianity came from both sides, east ( Russia ) and west ( Sweden ). There have been graves from 8th century which have crucifixes. The difference in northern land and christianization is that when christianity arrived the ecclesiastical laws were not introduced. Graves without any goods started later. In Finland earliest graves without goods are dated to 11th century.


When christianized Kings started to turn people to christianity it was " Follow the Christ or Die". The message was adopted later.

the fins had no problem with some of christianity, they basically did what the irish did: they turned their gods into saints and still worshiped them.
mostly fins became christianized by sweden, mostly by missionaries i bet, then in 1240 the second swedish crusade happened in finland.
i think it depended highly on the person whether they had grave goods, the fins seem to have a mixture of ways of doing things, many cemeteries have both cremation and burial. both mass groupings and singular graves. singular graves indicate important personages, like elite leaders, equal to nobles, though they really didn't have a class system like that. weapons indicate a leader since like a lot of other groups in the area; weapons signify power.

i don't think the church fought as hard as in other countries because some of the pagan beliefs were compatible with christian beliefs.


here is a nice paper on funerals, beliefs about communal beliefs on death and some of the effects of christianity on pagan finnish beliefs: www.kirj.ee...
edit on 20-11-2013 by demongoat because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 08:07 PM
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demongoat

not in finland, maybe in other places, the finns had no problem with christianity since they already buried their dead too, and the church really didn't see much of a difference between burying them with or without weapons.

The were several burial ways in Finland, finns did not bury all in the ground. The beginning of the Bronze Age, about 1300 BC, from the Finnish coastal areas spread in the Scandinavian direction of the new burial method, the so-called röykkiöhautaus Coastal Bronze Age burial cairns, or Barrows are high cliffs, usually for good views of the sites built on heaps. The cairns are round or oval, with a diameter of typically ten meters to more than 30 meters in length. These are typically the height of the meter range. The deceased is buried under heaps either unburned or burned. Even in later Iron age this burial method was in use. 600-700 AD most common burial method were cremation. Burials into ground as you meant was made as early as the Bronze Age, and Iron Age through. Burying into ground was common in Finland over a wider area at the end of the Iron Age, the Viking Age and the end of the Crusade period, around the years 1000-1300 AD. There has also been found 30 "graveyards" in Finland where body´s were buried with the ships.

Items in the grave was a custom. They have found in graves jewellery, weapons like swords and spearheads even tools for making weapons and even pottery. If there have been a grave without goods doesn´t mean there have not been as organic goods eventually vanishes in the grave.




he was most likely a leader of the community. weapons were a sign of power to the people in the area, it's not a viking sword it was a sword made in the 8th-10th century or the "viking-era". more than likely it was locally made.
if he lived up to around 1250 he did fight against crusaders, namely the swedish second crusade.

I wonder if you have seen what ulfberht sword looks like ? Also what comes to Vikings they travelled trough russian rivers to acquire metals for sword making. Ulfberth swords has also been found in Russia. About Sword making you can see the older sword of the picture which is Viking style is much better preserved than the crusader one.


the first one was in 1096, 30 years after the end of the viking era, so not really, by the time the crusade begin it was just starting to wind down.

Swedish crusader missions to Finland is something which our scientist in Finland pretty much doubt. Most of our researcher are in belief that those were merely only a war campaigns and are only romanticized to be a crusades. We don´t say that some mission of spreading christianity didn´t happen but it never was the main issue only a disguise of war campaign.


it's hard to find info on iron age finland, until they were conquered by the swedes they didn't even write stuff down.
there also needs to be more info on medieval armor and weapons, all i find is crap about replicas.
edit on 20-11-2013 by demongoat because: (no reason given)

LMAO there is a lot ironage graveyards and a lot of information of the era in Finland.
Runic writings in Finland



Problem why you don´t find info is that you are not finnish and you are propably searching swedish sites





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