Rape: "Ladies, it's your fault."

reply to post by cosmicexplorer




This is one of those "What Would You do?" vids. It features an apparently intoxicated young woman being coerced and dragged out of the bar by a stranger. Most of the onlookers stepped in and helped the woman. The only two who didn't? And verbally encouraged the would-be rapist?

One of them was an off-duty cop.

They're mostly a great bunch of apples, but the few rotten ones really stand out.

reply to post by Eidolon23


No I agree with that article...there is a difference between that and what im talking about.

Ill give an example...i was interviewing a female "victim" once who stated it was one guy...then when her story didnt add up with how one guy could carry her 4 blocks in 2 minutes she stated it was 3 guys then. Im sorry but that is a detail you dont forget.

Another one....claimed rape...i subpeonaed the text messages...after the alleged rape they were discussing when to hook up again. I inquired as to why she would send such a text to the man after being raped by him? She smiled and said I dont know.

Its not just not remembering parts....everyone forgets things in a high stress environment. Its called audiotory exclusion and tunnel vision. That is not what im talking about at all. It is when the "victim" gives facts that are completely impossible and when called on it the truth comes out.

I had another where the girtl was in a fight with her boyfirend....so she left the bar saying "fine ill walk home, maybe ill get raped". I didn't know this at the time but she staged a scene that I would have bet my life on that a rape occured. She damaged her clothing...shoes were lost...it wasn't until I interviewed her friends when I realized she kept saying all night that she would get raped if she walked home alone. Now I was pissed so I started really digging. Pulling camera footage from atms, etc. Found out she took a completely different route and even called her mom during the time she claimed she was raped. In the end I had enough to arrest for a false charge but no one would prosecute it and she later apologized.

I dont want to come off as an asshole in this. I do believe its an awful crime and when I recieved a sexual assault case I took it very seriously...to this day I can name the first and last name of every real rape victim I ever had a case with. I have even remained friends with some and some of their family.

But when someone cries rape I say lets see the evidence before I believe a thing.....and I was like that with most crimes.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


Thanks for the clarification.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


I agree with cosmic that false accusations of rape (and child molestation for that matter) can and do happen. I've known of several cases personally where it has happened. In all of them, the girl either felt regret for consensual sex afterwards or just blatantly lied. With the two cases of consensual sex, it was like the girls felt that crying "rape" afterwards absolved them of the personal responsibility of their consensual act. They didn't have to be accountable because "they were forced." In both cases, these girls had boyfriends....just as cosmic said.

In the case where the "victim" lied, it really made me angry because the accuser had no personal thought to how her accusation was going to ruin an innocent person's life....even when the accusation was later recanted. It's these kinds of "cry wolf" situations that do a hugh disservice to REAL rape victims....

Also....a poster previously said that "rape is the worst crime that can ever happen to a woman." I'd have to personally disagree. Yes, rape is awful....but there are worse things that can happen to you than rape. Ask any victim of domestic abuse or torture....especially those who stay in a prolonged situation.

CIAGypsy
Also....a poster previously said that "rape is the worst crime that can ever happen to a woman." I'd have to personally disagree. Yes, rape is awful....but there are worse things that can happen to you than rape. Ask any victim of domestic abuse or torture....especially those who stay in a prolonged situation.

The co-morbidity, so to speak, of the two makes it a difficult thing to call. Looking at trauma research, domestic abuse and sexual abuse sort of get balled together.

Personally, the rape was the catalyst for getting out of a physically/verbally abusive relationship. And I'm sad to say that I didn't report it, but I'd make a different decision now that I'm older. Although the rape itself had a component of battery, I'd still rank it as, well, worse.

False reporting mostly occurs among young women, is the impression I'm getting from the anecdotes offered up here, and it seems to happen when a young girl feels ashamed of her sexual behavior? It's also worth noting that several survivors I've spoken with, who were raped by a partner, say that they were accused of infidelity, that being the pretext for the rape.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


Hmmm, I've been a victim of both prolonged domestic abuse and rape. Domestic abuse is incredibly damaging. Absolutely agree but there is something very unique to rape that makes it just a touch more damaging on the psyche because it is such an intimate violation. Getting beaten doesn't leave you feeling eternally dirtied. People who get beaten don't practically scald themselves in hot showers trying to basically burn off that unclean feeling. It's a battery in and of itself but with an extraordinarily painful twist. Why do you think they did what they did at Abu Ghraib? They were sexually abusing the prisoners of war there.

I attempted suicide after my rape. I did not attempt suicide to get out of a domestic abuse situation. I just got out of it. PTSD isn't so much correlated to victims of domestic abuse (unless it is extraordinarily severe where fear of loss of life occurs); however, it is strong correlated to sexual assault. In fact, studies have shown that domestic abuse can predispose a person to PTSD but that's only a predisposition.

reply to post by Eidolon23

Rape: "Ladies, it's your fault."

The life of a human male - dealing with a mechanized drive to mate, is incredibly expensive because it diverts one from more important paths in life.
The female is just as driven but on a slightly different path. The guy is coming... the gal knows it. He can be lassoed and guided... because he is blind with his own drive. She knows if she finds the right guy, she can lead him in.

The result creates a balance between a basic brutal male sex animal and the feminine counterpart that can give the sequence a chance to benefit both. This leads... or can lead to, long-term relationships that can be very rewarding for both.

True love is indeed rare.

Unfortunately... some of my brethren are sometimes too overwhelmed with their physical programming and behave badly.

There is no excuse for rape. None whatsoever.

Take a deep breath, boys.

Eidolon23
Most of the efforts to bring awareness to the issue are initiated by Western women who've never experienced the full ramifications of the term.

I find this highly offensive. Western women don't get raped? They don't know? This is as bad as a statement as that it is the victim's fault.


Shame on you. You disgust me.

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).1

RAINN


I am one of them. Twice.

Now tell me again how I am a "western woman" who doesn't understand the term.

Eidolon23
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

I think that's a function of how women view themselves.

We get into a very blurry region in the West when it comes to intoxication and consent, and that's where the conversation gets redirected, despite the fact that there's plenty of cases of non-consensual intercourse to focus on.

When you live in India, and you are subject to all kinds of out and out RAPE, things are a more black and white.

OH! I am sorry! I guess you get to define what rape is, and determine if it legit to a victim or not. You get to decide what rape is.

Can't you see the hypocritical BS that you are spewing here?? You want to help victims by teaching women that it is not their fault, and then you set that conditions that if they were drinking, it was their fault??

Please, do women a favor and keep your pie hole shut. You are not helping anybody with your garbage.

1981. I was 17, she was 17. We went to the drug store to buy condoms. She talked her older sister's friend into letting us rent the motel room. Everything was great, until her Father found out. I was accused of raping his "little girl" and the Police were called. The only thing that saved me was that the cop checked out the information that I gave him and two of her girl friends came forward and told them that she had told them what had happened. It never made the news and there was never a report filed. I got lucky.

By the way, why is it assumed that all rape victims are women?

reply to post by JIMC5499


This somewhat relevant item is trending hard today.



Now to add something productive to the thread... here are some statistics

The "she was asking for it" analogy definitely goes with this. When the allied forces american, british, russian, french n polish soldiers during the ww2 fall of berlin raped more than 2 million german females (70% of them under 18).

It even applies to war. Hitler's Germany "she was asking for it".

Even Christopher Columbus used the "she was askin for it" analogy. When he and his gang discovered the new world in 1492. The innocent Arawak indians shared n parted everything they had, in an effort of love n friendship. Christopher Columbus wrote in her log "they do not bear arms n do not know them for i showed them a sword... cut themselves out of ignorance. They would make fine servants... christopher columbus n his gang went from island to island looking for gold and free sex (mostly very young native indian girls). BARTOLOME DE LAS CASES wrote of the mass rape of young native indian girls by christopher columbus group of explorers.

The cause "The native indians were peaceful, THEY WERE ASKING FOR IT". Christopher Columbus was described as a symbol of imperialism due to her slaughter/rape/conquest of the new world.

In Helen Ellerbe's book columbus described how he himself took pleasure with a native woman after whipping her 'soundly' with a piece of rope.

UnifiedSerenity
You know this is a good parody, the title is inflammatory and meant to get people to get into this debate again for the billionth time. I think there is a difference in cultures on display here. When I lived in the middle east the only women I saw who dressed provocatively for that culture were the French women working in kingdom.

I don't think it's ever the victim's fault, but then I also have to question some who claim to be a victim. There are many cases of women in America who engage in sex willingly then deny it after or who claim rape when it did not happen ie. Duke Lacrosse Team. Then there are the one's who get drunk at a party crawl all over a guy, grope him, excite him, get naked, and in the middle of the act realize what's going on and scream rape. In other words, they start it for whatever reason and claim they had nothing to do with it. I think the moment one says to stop you stop, but too many seem to think that all guys are guilty and all women are innocent and that my friends is not true.

And hence, the rape culture in the west continues and is supported by people like you. Yes, you.

Because you are able to name one whole person, which made the media, out of the 250,000 rapes that occur in the US each year, 60% of them unreported.

So since this one person made the news, because of the celebrity of the people she was engaged with, all women are lying.

So please name all these party girls who get it on and suddenly name rape. I will wait for your response.

CIAGypsy

Eidolon23
Okay, so I've been raped, and I've fended off rape by way off my self-defense skillz.

It wouldn't hurt to give girls the option of self-defense courses, but there's always going to be a size differential.

And besides. If this can be addressed on the perp end, why put the burden on the victim?

size doesn't need to be an issue...it's a matter of knowledge. I'm pretty average in size (5'7" and 120 lbs). I can drop a 250 lb gorilla, but I train regularly to do so.... Even against groups of attackers.

This past spring, I made my daughter take a rape defense class. This was her first year of college and I thought it was prudent. My daughter is very small & petite - about 5'2" and 90 lbs. The "attacker" was decked out in full, padded gear. He is one of my instructors and easily stands 6'2" and around 210 lbs. Using the skills she was taught, my daughter was able to fend him off of her and get away. Five months later, my daughter had to use those skills when she was physically attacked by a guy in her dorm. She wasn't raped....just knocked around a little, but those skills she learned became very critical in helping her defend herself.

Women can be taught and should be taught. The problem is lack of education. Even in the US, few women actually get trained to defend themselves against rape. That percentage is even lower or non-existant in places where "rape culture" is prevalent.

.

But oh! According to the thread creator, your daughter was never actually attacked, because she is a western woman, and western women don't know what it is.

cosmicexplorer
reply to post by calstorm

 

Well I can tell you as a prior cop...about 75% of all rape reports are complete bull#...sadly I think the ones that really do happen go unreported. And we always responded to every call and took it seriously. If you know a cop ask them...how many rape cases they handled..then ask them how many they felt really happened.

Rape is probably the 2nd worst crime I can think of and it has become a tool for women to get attention or out of trouble. I bet the majority of the cases I handled involved a woman who cheated on her bf...bf found out..she cries rape. Guy is investigated/arrested sometimes even...only to go to jury trial after years more of investigation to find out it was all made up. Then they do nothing to the "victim" because well we cant arrest someone like that for filing a false police report because it may prevent other victims from coming forward. Its pretty easy to tell the real ones from the fake ones. And the fake ones ruin lives.

*edit I speak only for the American system

edit on 17-11-2013 by cosmicexplorer because: (no reason given)

I am so glad you brought this up and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for helping perpetuate the rape myth and hurt millions of American women because it is police attitudes towards rape victims that so many are afraid to come forward. That was sarcasm in case you didn't get it. I am glad you are no longer not serving and protecting, and I hope somebody with more integrity, replaced you.

But considering that police officers rape THREE TIMES that of civilians, and considering the tribal mentality of police, I am sure that you are just protecting your own.

I could give you hundreds of articles of police rape on the job, but you can google them yourself.

And for the people who starred you in support, they should be ashamed of themselves for supporting the rape myths.

First off, 60% of rapes go unreported. A whopping 96% of rapists never see jail time. False accusations of rape are a whopping 8%. So they are not a problem.

There have even been police presincts that had a "assume they are lying" mentality.

Norfol Va, Assume they are lying

Congratulations, your are a typical officer:

One dominant and destructive characteristic underpinning police participation in rape investigations arises from exaggerated beliefs in the prevalence of false rape allegations. Concern has been expressed internationally regarding the high proportions of sexual assault complaints that are believed to be false. An early study conducted in the United States of America, for instance, revealed that the police officers who participated in the research believed approximately three out of every five rape complaints to be either false or mistaken (Feldman-Summers and Palmer, 1980). Likewise, in Chambers and Millar’s (1983) Scottish study, many detectives estimated false complaints to be very common, with one saying he believed only 1:20 were ‘real rapes’ (Chambers and Millar, 1983: 85 footnote). [...]

Police, rape, and women's credibility

The article argues that many rape complainants must still
battle to gain credibility in the eyes of some police investigative
officers, and that stereotypically based judgements continue to
impact negatively on police perceptions and decision making. The
overall aim of the article is to prompt critical, constructive
evaluation of police culture and practice in order to enhance the
quality of police responses to victims of sexual violence and abuse

Police, rape, and women's credibility

For law enforcement to assume that rape victims are usually lying is a gross misunderstanding of the number of false rape accusations. Only two to eight percent of reported rapes are false reports, and even fewer ever include a specific false accusation. In fact, the real problem is that most rapes go unreported.

Blaming rape victims in teh USA

So you can making assumptions all you want about rape victims, you are only helping the rapists. You know how the saying goes when you assume things.

I wonder how many of these false accussers was because of complete incompetency of the police. Or the refusal to even acknowledge the victim as a victim. I wonder how many rapists have gone free with support of the police?


I could list a dozen harrowing stories about police who didn't do their jobs. Like Warren vs DC when 3 women were raped for 14 hours because the police couldn't be bothered to get out of their cars when a burglary was reported.

This story is enough to make you run screaming:

Two male detectives arrived at my house. I stammered out a request for a female detective; it was denied. (I learned later that they violated procedure by not accommodating the request.) They made me go through what happened. I was in excruciating pain and dripping blood but they didn’t want to take me to the hospital just then, and said the hospital “wasn’t ready” anyway. So I described the rape. Then they asked if I was taking any drugs. Well, just my medication. I thought it was strange that they literally spent more time asking about my mental health history and the types of medication I took, instead of the rape, but at the time, again, I was in shock, and not thinking much.

I am a false rape allegation

Whether the police even believe the rape victim’s story or seek to report the incident are another matter, and one in which many rape victims report difficulties and inconsistencies. Feminists and anti-rape activists often highlight systemic problems with the way police handle interviewing and questioning victims. “Victims report being leered at, humiliated, and harassed by the policemen they called for help. To many women, the police often seem more interested in explicit sexual details than in catching the rapist.” [50] In Gager and Schurr’s study, they argue that some (though definitely not all) police show “rape victims the same inhumanity shown by the rapists themselves.” [50] A rape crisis center worker reported that the police often turn a blind eye to rape if it is committed by a boyfriend or fiancée, often seeing such instances as a “lover’s quarrel” and preferring not to get involved.[50] Another problem is that rape can be more difficult to prove when the victim is not physically assaulted, and this problem is compounded by what many Rape Crisis Center’s see as the police’s disinclination to believe women who were not outwardly harmed. This can present unique problems for women, especially if the experience was traumatic and she has trouble recalling specific details, which some police misinterpret as dishonesty rather than genuine trauma.

anti-rape movement

same

nixie_nox

But oh! According to the thread creator, your daughter was never actually attacked, because she is a western woman, and western women don't know what it is.

I deeply apologize, I can certainly understand how I came across that way. But I hope you'll agree that there's an attitude gradient, and that rape culture is a lot less subtle in other areas of the globe.

nixie_nox

Eidolon23
Most of the efforts to bring awareness to the issue are initiated by Western women who've never experienced the full ramifications of the term.

I find this highly offensive. Western women don't get raped? They don't know? This is as bad as a statement as that it is the victim's fault.


Shame on you. You disgust me.

Of course Western women get raped, I wasn't referring to the term "rape", I was referring to the term "rape culture". It's definitely operative here, but it's so subtle, that it becomes impossible to discuss without getting accused of misandry.I thought that examining an area of the world where it is more pronounced could help bring clarity to the conversation.

Now tell me again how I am a "western woman" who doesn't understand the term.

Believe me, I understand how this conversation can trigger very strong feelings, but I invite you to re-examine the OP and consider the difference between the words "rape" and "rape culture". One pertains to an act, and one pertains to a set of cultural paradigms that condone the act. And when it comes to "rape culture", it is far less pronounced in the West, and often not very productively discussed as it gets diverted into where consent becomes blurred.

Those lines are a lot sharper elsewhere, and it was my hope that it could snap the whole picture into clearer focus.

nixie_nox

UnifiedSerenity
You know this is a good parody, the title is inflammatory and meant to get people to get into this debate again for the billionth time. I think there is a difference in cultures on display here. When I lived in the middle east the only women I saw who dressed provocatively for that culture were the French women working in kingdom.

I don't think it's ever the victim's fault, but then I also have to question some who claim to be a victim. There are many cases of women in America who engage in sex willingly then deny it after or who claim rape when it did not happen ie. Duke Lacrosse Team. Then there are the one's who get drunk at a party crawl all over a guy, grope him, excite him, get naked, and in the middle of the act realize what's going on and scream rape. In other words, they start it for whatever reason and claim they had nothing to do with it. I think the moment one says to stop you stop, but too many seem to think that all guys are guilty and all women are innocent and that my friends is not true.

And hence, the rape culture in the west continues and is supported by people like you. Yes, you.

Because you are able to name one whole person, which made the media, out of the 250,000 rapes that occur in the US each year, 60% of them unreported.

So since this one person made the news, because of the celebrity of the people she was engaged with, all women are lying.

So please name all these party girls who get it on and suddenly name rape. I will wait for your response.

This particular member shows up on every thread pertaining to this subject, and diverts the conversation into intoxication and consent. At one point, she shared that her son had been accused in a scenario such as the one she outlines, which, of course, evokes strong feelings in her. So I wanted to respond in way that wouldn't just shut her down.

The only approach I thought I might get through, I didn't even attempt. But here goes:

"Let's say you and your husband are having sex. In the middle, for whatever reason, you want to stop. Maybe it's getting painful, maybe you need to pee. Maybe you just need a break. You say, 'stop', he keeps going. Let's take the word 'rape' off the table for a second and just ask, would that be wrong?

If so, then being drunk, naked, and already having sex doesn't make it any less wrong if your partner doesn't stop when you say no."

Now I wish I had.

A scream of rape is a provisional order to go target a predator with lethal force if neccessary(MY choice of course).

Eidolon23
Those lines are a lot sharper elsewhere, and it was my hope that it could snap the whole picture into clearer focus.

Just to add a little clarity to what I know you are saying and which may be getting lost in the emotive nature of the topic, a rape culture, is one where rape is not a crime, or if it is, it is the victim that is the criminal, not the rapist. I thought that your video demonstrated that mentality, and it's abject stupidity, brilliantly but it was perhaps too subtle, but then I think that is because it was targeted at Indian women who are living in such a society. India is moving forward, thankfully, a few years ago those women would have been punished for producing such a video.

This is an article that very frankly addresses what it means to be a Rape Culture, specifically, in Nigeria...

To take it further, I will include in my definition a society that blames the woman for her partner's infidelity and deviance. With the above definition in mind, it is obvious that we do indeed have a rape culture in Nigeria. When we think it is okay for a husband to forcefully have sex with his wife, we are obliquely perpetrating a rape culture by telling the woman that she is nothing but a pleasure object for her husband. We are saying she has no right to consensual sex, her body is his to use when and how he pleases. Conversely, when he cheats and we blame the wife, we are inadvertently telling her she made her husband vulnerable by denying him sex, thus creating room for him to be tempted. By absolving the man from blame, we are telling the woman that not only must she be an object of pleasure for her husband at all time, she must also satisfy his needs.

When we look the other way when the "oga" (boss) sexually violates the maid/nanny/distant cousin from the village, we are an accomplice in the act of rape. When we blame the rape victims, we are complicit in an act of rape. When we refuse to punish the victims, blame the devil, watch Nollywood movies where a rape victim is killed/dishonored/disowned by her husband, family or society at large, we are permitting and encouraging a rape culture.

Most importantly and less nuanced in our perpetration of rape culture due to the spread of fundamentalist religions in Nigeria is when we insist that women must remain virgins till marriage. This is because in this scenario of virgin-till-marriage, a woman is seen only through the lens of procreation and pleasure object for her husband. Value is placed on the purity of the woman instead of on the woman herself. The woman is seen as an object to be collected, desired by the menfolk and only through her virginal purity is her worth validated.

It is in this policing of a woman's body and the hyper-vigilance of the female sexuality, which dictates and subordinates what the woman wants or does not want, that the problem lies. This policing and hyper-vigilance translates to the society telling the woman that there is something inherently wrong with her body. Thus she must be told what to wear (or not wear) to limit the exposure to the men and when she doesn't conform, and is assaulted or arrested, then she is responsible. In other words, if a woman's body is visible, it ought to be available for sex or punished for this visibility.

www.theguardian.com...

It seems, if you look at statistics, that almost everywhere, 1 in 5 women, at some point in their lives, have suffered from some kind of sexual offence. We are on a very slow road towards addressing that in the West. It is being addressed in ensuring that women and girls (as well as men and boys) feel able to come forward to report those crimes, and in ensuring that judicial systems are equipped and proactive in dealing with those crimes. This seemingly has, so far, had little effect on preventing rape, but it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully. It is not too long ago that in the US legislation was introduced that meant that a husband could no longer legally rape his wife, and in the UK, despite extensive training for those officers who deal with sexual offences, it still remains that very few rapes are reported and even fewer of those go to court, and even less result in conviction. At the end of the day, it still comes down to he/said, she/said. As you have stated repeatedly through out this thread, and elsewhere on the boards, what we need to do is start looking at why some men rape and in preventing that mentality from persisting.