Point 103

Alright. This will end now. Any further off topic and/or personal jabs will be met with post bans.

That's one. Any more?

reply to post by Kantzveldt


The state of Israel is not Semitic, it is a Western culture transplanted, en masse, into a Semitic one, hence the dischord and suppression of the native populace. The appropriation of Hebrew as the national language as a means of homogenising numerous cultures who happen to share the same faith, but different ethnicities, and ancestral languages is following a previously proven pattern.

The Nazi Party based their approach to ethnic cleansing and social unity on something similar to the Israeli state; that ‘sameness’ promotes unity. The Party leadership drew heavily on Artur de Gobineau’s pseudo-scientific ideas of racial stereotypes, much of Eastern Europe was deemed, in his eyes, and that of the Nazi leadership, to be peopled by the ‘degenerate races’. As is often the case with Philo-semites, Gobineau, much like Adolf Eichmann, differentiated between cultured or Westernised Jews, and those Jews that lived simply as peasant farmers and craftsmen. It was the latter that were identified immediately for death by the killing squads because they were ‘untermensch’, and the former who were, ideally, supposed to be relocated to Palestine, or Madagascar or anywhere else that would take them. While there were no qualms at killing those deemed to be sub-human and degenerate, there was much debate, vascilliation and even regret about killing the white, Westernised Jews of the Greater Reich. Unlike the mass murder of the Eastern European Jews and Ethnic Poles etc, there was never any intention of murdering the Jews of Central and Northern Europe, that became, in the eyes of the Nazis, an economic necessity.

Similarly, in the upheaval of the Russian Revolution, the same differentiation occurs, the Bolsheviks were not peopled by the Jews that had been contained and ghettoised within the Pale of Settlement, who were the victims of the German killing squads, but by the sons and daughters of merchants and others of the professional classes who were assimilated to Russian culture. When the ‘reprisals’ were enacted against the Jews of the Pale, encompassing the Ukraine, it was not because those people had been commissars, it was because they were there, because they had nowhere to go, and the area, due to the stringency of the Pale’s borders, was incredibly overcrowded, impoverished and there was a chance to gain lebensraum while proving loyalty to the new over-lords . It was the proverbial Behavioural Sink, just waiting for King Rat to arrive and tell them who they needed to hate, just as it had happened in reverse with the Soviets a generation before. It was facilitated by conditioning, not natural inclination. On both parts.

The Ukrainians were not incited to violence because they believed that these people were in league with the Bolsheviks, but because they wanted to ally themselves with the Nazis , claiming a cultural affinity with the ‘white Russians’, such as that espoused by Alfred Rosenberg and much of VOMI. It was easy under such circumstances for the Nazis to incite violence, these people had been cultured in division under Imperial Russia, and frequently incited to pogroms against the Jews. Those pogroms inevitably led to the development of militancy in those Jews as a means of defence. So thus we see a constant backward and forwards of neighbours being turned against neighbours, not because it is a natural inclination to hate difference but as a result of social conditioning.


The Jews, as we have already covered, are not a ‘race’, they are a disparate group of ethnicities, that happen to practice the same religion, and as such are no less likely to be victims of their own religious group, as they are from any other group when the prevailing social order demands it. Professor Karl Haushofer, Hitler’s advisor on geopolitical matters, who devised the Drach nost Osten philosophy of the Nazis, decided that to be effective, Germany’s territorial expansion should be based on ethnicity, however, the economic needs of expansionism led to the devising of the Nuremberg Laws and that old European stand by of socially isolating the Jews and seizing their property when the coffers run dry. Haushofer’s own wife was Jewish demonstrating the selectivity of the Nazis’ so-called fanatic ‘anti-semitism’.

So if we apply this to the ancient world, the Jews of the Old Testament, the Kings of Judea, the Herodian dynasty, we see that there too is a differentiation between those Jews who we can perhaps call Hellenised Jews for the sake of argument, and those that are ethnically, and linguistically Semitic, as opposed to just retaining the old language ritually, but syncretically adhering to the over-lord’s gods and belief systems as a means of control over the peasants, slaves and artisans. Which is why, in all conquered cultures, from the very first civilisation at Sumer, we see a rapid, often traumatic, anthropomorphism of the deities depicted through natural artistic expression and craftsmanship when it is turned into economic productionism for the benefit of state. This in turn, creates a middle, or merchant-class that are elevated, creating social stratification, with administration over those with whom they were once equals.

Of course, with oppression comes sedition. It is a constantly repeating pattern that has resulted in a manipulation and anticipation of that pattern, and more than a little pre-empting, with such uprisings being used as an opportunity to intercede, remove those that may have natural leadership qualities, thus leaving a void that can be filled by those easily bought and controlled by the corporations wishing to gain control of the local resources. Now, if we compare that patterning with a country like Switzerland, we can see quite clearly how social stability is maintained, and what the Nazis aspired to. All difference is suppressed and contained, unwanted elements excluded and weeded out, with eugenics actively utilised to remove any perceived genetic deficiencies, the Swiss are known to have practiced forced sterilisations right up until the mid-80s, and probably still do, they are just very discreet about it due to it’s infringement of Human Rights laws and regulations. They are also, of course, a militant culture with involuntary conscription for all males.

On which note, in regard to the points that Eidolon originally raised about the regimentation and rigidity of what is perceived as feminine and womanly, it is worthy of mention that the Japanese held similar, though cultural distinct, ideas. They considered themselves as ‘racially’ and culturally superior to the other Asiatic peoples and held a strictly regimented martial culture, the Samurai, that embraced pederasty as part of it’s code.

What could be manlier than man-boy love? The widely practiced and frequently violent Way of samurai pederasty was celebrated as an ideal by Hosokawa Yūsai, revered poet and first generation daimyō featured in this exhibit.

As the "flower of the samurai spirit," man-boy love formed the basis of the samurai aesthetic, in a discipline called shudō (the way of loving boys).

"The list of shoguns, hegemons, and principal daimyō thought to have been sexually involved with boys reads like a Who's Who of military and political history," according to historian Gary Leupp. Samurai connoisseurship of pretty boys led to vendettas and rebellion at the highest levels, and possibly even war.

The misogyny implied by the homosociality of this age-structured form of domination was profound, with those exclusively devoted to shudō referred to literally as onna-girai or "woman-haters."

www.asiansart.org...

As is often the case, just as the boy grows up to becomes a pederast himself, doing unto others as was done unto him, the women also help enforce the rigid roles and defined ideals of femininity that were imposed on them through strict discipline and corporal punishment. The mother binds her daughter’s feet or holds her down while she is circumcised. Such adherence to gender stereotyping, and the enforcement of conformity to those rules, is usually within the gender, passed from parent to child, in defiance of natural inclinations, and based on social aspiration and it is often the feminine complicity, using sex and progeny to improve their own status, that has led to the greatest social upheaval, and the eventual exclusion of the female from the public sphere of influence and confinement to the domestic realm under a system of patriarchal control.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

The state of Israel is not Semitic, it is a Western culture transplanted, en masse, into a Semitic one, hence the dischord and suppression of the native populace. The appropriation of Hebrew as the national language as a means of homogenising numerous cultures who happen to share the same faith, but different ethnicities, and ancestral languages is following a previously proven pattern.

The entire concept of Israel was never intended as being entirely Semitic, it begins at the Northernmost extremities of Semitic expansion in the vicinity of Ebla, and the taking of Syriac wives by those of Akkadian descent, as in the Genesis narrative of Jacob, thus Semitic paternal lineage but the basis of Jewish Mit Dna traces back to four women of European type, though of course they weren't European as such.

The transmission at some point of this genetic basis is important to those of the different ethnic groups which claim Jewish descent.

The Nazi Party based their approach to ethnic cleansing and social unity on something similar to the Israeli state; that ‘sameness’ promotes unity. The Party leadership drew heavily on Artur de Gobineau’s pseudo-scientific ideas of racial stereotypes, much of Eastern Europe was deemed, in his eyes, and that of the Nazi leadership, to be peopled by the ‘degenerate races’. As is often the case with Philo-semites, Gobineau, much like Adolf Eichmann, differentiated between cultured or Westernised Jews, and those Jews that lived simply as peasant farmers and craftsmen. It was the latter that were identified immediately for death by the killing squads because they were ‘untermensch’, and the former who were, ideally, supposed to be relocated to Palestine, or Madagascar or anywhere else that would take them. While there were no qualms at killing those deemed to be sub-human and degenerate, there was much debate, vascilliation and even regret about killing the white, Westernised Jews of the Greater Reich. Unlike the mass murder of the Eastern European Jews and Ethnic Poles etc, there was never any intention of murdering the Jews of Central and Northern Europe, that became, in the eyes of the Nazis, an economic necessity.

All societies try to create unity through promotion of shared common values and systems of belief, if there are those that will not conform to such that always presents a problem. It's unknown if Hitler had any immediate plans to begin killing the Jews of the Eastern territories, the evidence suggests opportunism in that the killings were spontaneous by the local populations and that initial orders were only not to intervene, before the formation of the Einsatzgruppen militia, it also presented Hitler the opportunity of minimal involvement of German units, that the problem could take care of itself with in effect.

Hitlers approach to the Western Jews was entirely different, i don't think he ever moved against those of Berlin, and the establishment of the work camp system was again in a sense letting things take care of themselves, in that with the containment of the Jews and seperation of the sexes that was effectively problem solved over time, and given high attrition rates due to harsh conditions and epidemic that time wouldn't be so long.

The Einsatzgruppen were only peripheral to this system in their involvement in Operation Reinhard in disposing of those Polish Jews that would perform no useful function in the work camps, and again operating from Auschwitz III Monowitz upon the arrival of the Hungarians in the same role, and only in the same manner they had performed their function from the onset.

Similarly, in the upheaval of the Russian Revolution, the same differentiation occurs, the Bolsheviks were not peopled by the Jews that had been contained and ghettoised within the Pale of Settlement, who were the victims of the German killing squads, but by the sons and daughters of merchants and others of the professional classes who were assimilated to Russian culture. When the ‘reprisals’ were enacted against the Jews of the Pale, encompassing the Ukraine, it was not because those people had been commissars, it was because they were there, because they had nowhere to go, and the area, due to the stringency of the Pale’s borders, was incredibly overcrowded, impoverished and there was a chance to gain lebensraum while proving loyalty to the new over-lords . It was the proverbial Behavioural Sink, just waiting for King Rat to arrive and tell them who they needed to hate, just as it had happened in reverse with the Soviets a generation before. It was facilitated by conditioning, not natural inclination. On both parts.

At the upper end of Bolshevik hierarchy certainly they were of such classes with international connections, but the system did extend down through to the local levels and commissars, and such would have been those with some literacy from those humble communities, there was a Jewish bias throughout the entire Soviet system during the Holdomor period and the persecution of the Orthodox church, the Ukranians perception of this and resentment towards it cannot be dismissed as conditioning, it created men that were happy enough to shoot Jews from dawn till dusk without regret.

The Ukrainians were not incited to violence because they believed that these people were in league with the Bolsheviks, but because they wanted to ally themselves with the Nazis , claiming a cultural affinity with the ‘white Russians’, such as that espoused by Alfred Rosenberg and much of VOMI. It was easy under such circumstances for the Nazis to incite violence, these people had been cultured in division under Imperial Russia, and frequently incited to pogroms against the Jews. Those pogroms inevitably led to the development of militancy in those Jews as a means of defence. So thus we see a constant backward and forwards of neighbours being turned against neighbours, not because it is a natural inclination to hate difference but as a result of social conditioning.

And there's the reason for the Holdomor, why they initially looked upon the Germans as liberators from their oppression, and of course this all dates back to the conquest of the Ukraine by the Judaic Khazars in the first place, which wasn't due to social conditioning...

The Jews, as we have already covered, are not a ‘race’, they are a disparate group of ethnicities, that happen to practice the same religion, and as such are no less likely to be victims of their own religious group, as they are from any other group when the prevailing social order demands it. Professor Karl Haushofer, Hitler’s advisor on geopolitical matters, who devised the Drach nost Osten philosophy of the Nazis, decided that to be effective, Germany’s territorial expansion should be based on ethnicity, however, the economic needs of expansionism led to the devising of the Nuremberg Laws and that old European stand by of socially isolating the Jews and seizing their property when the coffers run dry. Haushofer’s own wife was Jewish demonstrating the selectivity of the Nazis’ so-called fanatic ‘anti-semitism’.

That is an age old trick, that the rulers would invite the Jews into the realm in order to increase commerce and mercantile activity and benefit from the tax revenue, and then when the Church and people clamoured for their removal appease them and take all the Jewish assets, and there you see why they might wish to manipulate at the social and political level to prevent such and consolidate their own position.

So if we apply this to the ancient world, the Jews of the Old Testament, the Kings of Judea, the Herodian dynasty, we see that there too is a differentiation between those Jews who we can perhaps call Hellenised Jews for the sake of argument, and those that are ethnically, and linguistically Semitic, as opposed to just retaining the old language ritually, but syncretically adhering to the over-lord’s gods and belief systems as a means of control over the peasants, slaves and artisans. Which is why, in all conquered cultures, from the very first civilisation at Sumer, we see a rapid, often traumatic, anthropomorphism of the deities depicted through natural artistic expression and craftsmanship when it is turned into economic productionism for the benefit of state. This in turn, creates a middle, or merchant-class that are elevated, creating social stratification, with administration over those with whom they were once equals.

As a general principle literacy develops from mercantile activity, thus Nabu the God of the Temple scribe also that of commerce, any ruler including Herod the Edomite requiring the support of both.

Of course, with oppression comes sedition. It is a constantly repeating pattern that has resulted in a manipulation and anticipation of that pattern, and more than a little pre-empting, with such uprisings being used as an opportunity to intercede, remove those that may have natural leadership qualities, thus leaving a void that can be filled by those easily bought and controlled by the corporations wishing to gain control of the local resources. Now, if we compare that patterning with a country like Switzerland, we can see quite clearly how social stability is maintained, and what the Nazis aspired to. All difference is suppressed and contained, unwanted elements excluded and weeded out, with eugenics actively utilised to remove any perceived genetic deficiencies, the Swiss are known to have practiced forced sterilisations right up until the mid-80s, and probably still do, they are just very discreet about it due to it’s infringement of Human Rights laws and regulations. They are also, of course, a militant culture with involuntary conscription for all male

Hitler despised the Swiss though, he considered them the lowest of the Germanic peoples, their insular nature not corresponding to his own visions of Imperialistic grandeur and instincts toward expansion, unlike the British.

On which note, in regard to the points that Eidolon originally raised about the regimentation and rigidity of what is perceived as feminine and womanly, it is worthy of mention that the Japanese held similar, though cultural distinct, ideas. They considered themselves as ‘racially’ and culturally superior to the other Asiatic peoples and held a strictly regimented martial culture, the Samurai, that embraced pederasty as part of it’s code.

Again perhaps for the reasons you mention the Japanese had a long held desire to be an insular people, until forced by American gunboat diplomacy to join in with the rest of the world, i collect the prints of Taiso Yoshi-toshi from that Meiji period because that was effectively the end of traditional Japanese culture and this intrigues me, he was highly disturbed producing many scenes of graphic violence, according to the tastes of the common people also at the time, but also capable of great beauty in his representations of courtesans and ghosts, his art has not since been matched in Japan, with absolute conformity comes the loss of the singularly diverse...so now just ghosts, illusions to be deconstructed...?



Yoshi-Toshi

Kantzveldt
The entire concept of Israel was never intended as being entirely Semitic, it begins at the Northernmost extremities of Semitic expansion in the vicinity of Ebla, and the taking of Syriac wives by those of Akkadian descent, as in the Genesis narrative of Jacob, thus Semitic paternal lineage but the basis of Jewish Mit Dna traces back to four women of European type, though of course they weren't European as such.

The transmission at some point of this genetic basis is important to those of the different ethnic groups which claim Jewish descent.

That is somewhat debateable and only applies to the Ashkenazi Jewish lines. Other Jewish ethnic groups suggest varying degrees of genetic relationships to the populations that they live amongst, and only with comparison with the general population, those that identify as Jewish and those that do not, can any definitive conclusions be made. And of course, the Y lines tell an entirely different story. Besides, those ‘four women’ only represent the successful lines, extant in the modern population, there will have been many branches that have died out.

Kantzveldt
All societies try to create unity through promotion of shared common values and systems of belief, if there are those that will not conform to such that always presents a problem. It's unknown if Hitler had any immediate plans to begin killing the Jews of the Eastern territories, the evidence suggests opportunism in that the killings were spontaneous by the local populations and that initial orders were only not to intervene, before the formation of the Einsatzgruppen militia, it also presented Hitler the opportunity of minimal involvement of German units, that the problem could take care of itself with in effect.

Hitlers approach to the Western Jews was entirely different, i don't think he ever moved against those of Berlin, and the establishment of the work camp system was again in a sense letting things take care of themselves, in that with the containment of the Jews and seperation of the sexes that was effectively problem solved over time, and given high attrition rates due to harsh conditions and epidemic that time wouldn't be so long.

The Einsatzgruppen were only peripheral to this system in their involvement in Operation Reinhard in disposing of those Polish Jews that would perform no useful function in the work camps, and again operating from Auschwitz III Monowitz upon the arrival of the Hungarians in the same role, and only in the same manner they had performed their function from the onset.

The activities of the Einsatzgruppen were chiefly related to the ‘Slavic Question’ and though later integrated into Aktion Reinhard, the motivations of the two programmes was entirely different and consistent with the ideology of race as outlined by Mein Kampf and the works of Alfred Rosenberg. Only those deemed of Germanic descent in the occupied territories were selected for work programmes in the Reich, while those sent to the Eastern block concentration camps, were selected based on skill, but again, very few who were deemed as ‘untermensch’, possessing those characteristics deemed ‘semitic’ were selected for immediate killing.

In countries such as Hungary, which was not occupied aggressively, but by tactical alliance through the support of local Far-Right, or Fascist factions, the Jews were ghettoised, then transported East. By the adoption of the Nuremberg Laws, the Jews were unable to own property or in most cases earn any kind of living, and even if they had resources, they could not purchase food and other supplies from non-Jews. This led to the Jews having to survive through the black market, which led to a destabilisation of the fragile Reich economy which led to even greater restrictions. Eventually, with no source of food, limited access to water, increased over crowding etc, the Jews health began to suffer and they were slowly starving. At this point we see an increase in correspondence of local Nazi leaders complaining about this state of affairs, and many, like Hans Frank, suggesting that it is inhumane to allow them to starve to death, as well as expressing concerns as to the effect that might have on morale. Meanwhile, despite Goebbels repeatedly requesting that Hitler impose conditions of Total War in the Reich, Hitler resists such measures, worried that this will undermine the German peoples’ vigour for territorial expansion. This leads to Reinhard Heydrich basically being told to sort out the problem ‘now’ and he convenes the Wannsee conference. The Germans cannot afford to feed the Jews that have been ghettoised, they can barely afford to feed the non-Jews, and therefore a solution to the ‘Jewish Problem’ must be found.

Kantzveldt
At the upper end of Bolshevik hierarchy certainly they were of such classes with international connections, but the system did extend down through to the local levels and commissars, and such would have been those with some literacy from those humble communities, there was a Jewish bias throughout the entire Soviet system during the Holdomor period and the persecution of the Orthodox church, the Ukranians perception of this and resentment towards it cannot be dismissed as conditioning, it created men that were happy enough to shoot Jews from dawn till dusk without regret.

Beyond the Bolshevik leadership, the demographics were reflective of the general population and they made up a very small minority overall. Only in leadership was there disproportion.

During the famine it is likely that the tradition of mutual support amongst the Jews of the Ukraine, fostered during the Pale of Settlement era, caused resentments and the perception that the Jews were being favoured, rather than an understanding that the Jews were more able to withstand adverse conditions due to a more sustained experience of oppression. That the commissars may have been Jewish would have exacerbated that belief, even though it was likely that those commissars were in no way filial with the local Jews that they had been brought in to oversee.

Kantzveldt
And there's the reason for the Holdomor, why they initially looked upon the Germans as liberators from their oppression, and of course this all dates back to the conquest of the Ukraine by the Judaic Khazars in the first place, which wasn't due to social conditioning...

It is a bit of a stretch to say that the conquest of the Khazars was influencial, that was a very, very long time ago, and the Khazars were not Jewish when they conquered the region, they converted to Judaism later, most likely due to inter-marriage with the local women.

Kantzveldt
That is an age old trick, that the rulers would invite the Jews into the realm in order to increase commerce and mercantile activity and benefit from the tax revenue, and then when the Church and people clamoured for their removal appease them and take all the Jewish assets, and there you see why they might wish to manipulate at the social and political level to prevent such and consolidate their own position.

Absolutely, however, while it is the church and the people that get the blame, it is more often the State that is behind the persecution, as we see in the case of the events that led to the major Inquisitions and we can compare that to the action of Philip of France against the Cathars and Templars, and heresy in general. The Church more often has it’s had forced by the prevailing land power.

But, certainly, in terms of the points that you raised earlier about reaction, we can see why the events in the centuries preceding the World Wars, or in terms of Russia and Germany, The Great Patriotic War, we can understand the process that led to the emergence of Zionism, as well as that of Self-determination, in those people and regions which were the meat in that particular sandwich.

Kantzveldt
As a general principle literacy develops from mercantile activity, thus Nabu the God of the Temple scribe also that of commerce, any ruler including Herod the Edomite requiring the support of both.

Agreed.

Kantzveldt
Hitler despised the Swiss though, he considered them the lowest of the Germanic peoples, their insular nature not corresponding to his own visions of Imperialistic grandeur and instincts toward expansion, unlike the British.

He despised them on paper, and diplomatically, but the German state, certainly initially, was dependent upon them, and later, those that had invested heavily in the German war machine relied on the Swiss, as well as Sweden, as a means of funnelling out their profits and dividends from their various industrial concerns, such as IG Farben. Operation Sunrise, was all about ensuring that Germany would not retreat into Switzerland, thus prolonging the war indefinitely. This was less to do with beating the ‘bad guys’ and liberating those still under the yoke of Nazism, as it was about beginning the rebuilding of Germany as the central economic power of Europe. War had to end there and then, or the risk was that France and Russia would become the dominant economic powers in Europe.

But yes, Hitler, again on paper, as outlined in Mein Kampf, saw a natural affinity between the British and German imperial ambitions. And many in Britain shared that view, especially faced with the propaganda that the Red Peril would communalise their assets. However, Britain, on the Churchillian front saw German domination of the World Island as the greater threat. Despite Hitler’s assertion that Britain could rule the seas, while Germany ruled the land mass, Churchill understood that control of the Geographical Pivot would severly impede upon Britain’s self sufficiency and more importantly, it’s position in the flow and control of international trade.

Kantzveldt
Again perhaps for the reasons you mention the Japanese had a long held desire to be an insular people, until forced by American gunboat diplomacy to join in with the rest of the world, i collect the prints of Taiso Yoshi-toshi from that Meiji period because that was effectively the end of traditional Japanese culture and this intrigues me, he was highly disturbed producing many scenes of graphic violence, according to the tastes of the common people also at the time, but also capable of great beauty in his representations of courtesans and ghosts, his art has not since been matched in Japan, with absolute conformity comes the loss of the singularly diverse...so now just ghosts, illusions to be deconstructed...?

Yes much like that of the British in China...except without the Opium.

Very unusual and interesting work. Thanks for sharing that.

And many thanks for an interesting discussion.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout



You're welcome and thanks also for the interesting discussion, these are difficult issues and i don't really like to dwell on them, but now i can get back to my usual prejudices...

Kantzveldt
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

You're welcome and thanks also for the interesting discussion, these are difficult issues and i don't really like to dwell on them, but now i can get back to my usual prejudices...

Most people don't like to dwell on the negative realities of being human, it is far easier to attribute such events to the work of evil; spirits and demons that possess us, than to accept that we all have the capacity to do harm. Close examination of these events, leads to the realisation that there is often little intent or even malice involved, just a lack of understanding and intolerance of others and their right to be.

Predjudice is just another word for preference, funny how we accept one, react to the other.

Kantzveldt

Gorgeous picture...I could definately live with that on my wall.

All the best

Kantzveldt

I find it interesting that groups would promote the opposite of what they hope toward, the double cross, in the quest for power at the spiritual level, but that is seemingly the case here, that the creation of illusion and the promotion of mystery and romance is only intended as the destruction of such, in the interest of a presumed Higher state of being, that they would eradicate the spirit of the Earth, if not the Earth itself towards this end.

Tremendously intriguing thread! This paragraph really stands out to me because I think it grasps at the crux of being human and humanity. The difference between mind and body, logic/ration/reason/ideal and chaos, the difference between animal and man. The primal essence of a living being whether it knows it or not or likes it or not is selfishness, it must first maintain its own existence before it is able to do or consider anything else. Why humans at once thrive in existence and why humanity at once thrives in existence is humans naturally realizing that by cooperation and suspending ultimate selfishness (in the form of lust and greed to get anything one wants whenever one wants it i.e. murder, rape, robbery) a form of progression can take place that benefits multiple people not just one, so there is still a system of every man for them self, as there must be, but because we live in a civil society, it is every man for them self which in turn benefits every other man...in theory at least, (services and goods and all that).

So the presumed higher state of being is always towards selflessness, or so it seems; suspending complete greed and concentration on ones ultimate and unlimited desire for ideals beyond ones self and ones immediate existence, such as establishing objectively and honestly fair laws, civil and social and economic and cultural. So I may not be on the right track in regards to what you meant by that paragraph and I must admit I hurriedly read through the OP and following post as I am short for time, but this response is the first thing I thought, and I tend to think in generalities so perhaps something of what I said applies. As far as promotion of illusion and mystery and romance in the name of ideals and spiritual heights, and then what you say about the nature of the earth, this is what I interpret is being gotten at. The nature of earth and life may be tautologically straight forward, and all myths and stories and ideas and ideals may be nothing but the creation and fiction of the creators of said ideals, and then to have a million natural born humans follow these, under the guise or belief of spiritual maturity, is actually natural and free born beings on an earth, obeying information not chosen by them to obey...or something like this.

Forgot to mention this directly is related to capitalism vs. communism/socialism and nationalism and religion or trying to make the ideal of 'family' extend beyond blood. But the thing is ideals are always constructed out of immaterial, built on the foundation of order ever seeking order within ever chaotic order, that is to say it is easier, much easier for things to go from perfect to not perfect, then for perfection to be maintained when for example dealing with hundreds or thousands or billions of humans that need to eat and satisfy their individuality and desires daily.

Sweet dark lord, how've I missed this thread?! Excellent. Right up my alley.