Excellent Commentary on American Wealth Gap.

I could not find this video posted anywhere in ATS. Firstly I would ask anybody commenting in this thread from focusing on the author of this comment - Bill Maher, rather focus on the points he brings up, as whether you like this guy or not, his points are spot on.



When a family is worth more than 100,000,000 citizens of the same country combined or the net worth of a single man is higher than 70,000,000 citizens of the same country combined, there is something seriously wrong...

In before accusations of communism. I completely agree that wealth inequality is out of hand. All the data shows that it is getting worse (thus disproving the idea of trickle down economics). But it's tough to convince someone who has so much that they shouldn't have as much as they do, and that a better dispersion of wealth would benefit not only their fellow man but themselves as well.

I wrote a thread about wealth inequality awhile back and while most of the commentary was constructive, there were some die hards that just refuse to give up on broken economic ideologies. I would like to see some data on the income of people who support one side of the argument or the other.


PS: I can't stand bill maher

A disparity in wealth is irrelevant as long as their is a path available for everyone to earn as much as they are motivated to.

If people do not want to work for it or are not smart enough to get it than it should not be given to them. As far as I know, there are multiple paths to wealth in the US.

There is nobody out to purposefully limit any specific group other than the individuals limiting themselves.

Spookybelle
A disparity in wealth is irrelevant as long as their is a path available for everyone to earn as much as they are motivated to.

If people do not want to work for it or are not smart enough to get it than it should not be given to them. As far as I know, there are multiple paths to wealth in the US.

There is nobody out to purposefully limit any specific group other than the individuals limiting themselves.

That is the party line, and it has worked extraordinarily well for the past 100 years, that's for sure. "You're poor because you didn't work as hard as I did" or "You're poor because you spent your money on stupid things and didn't invest it like I did".

What the haves always seem to fail to recognize is that most of them started with an advantage. I had Bill Gates used as an example of someone who started with nothing and created a business empire. That individual apparently wasn't aware that Gates had an Ivy league education waiting for him (not exactly cheap), and came from a wealthy family. So while he didn't start out a billionaire by any means, he was from a family that was affluent enough to buy him an ivy league education. That is a leg up in life, no matter how you want to spin it.

Telling someone from south central L.A that has grown up in generations of poverty and substance abuse that they can be CEO's of fortune 500 companies if they only work hard enough is patently ridiculous.

DeadSeraph

Spookybelle
A disparity in wealth is irrelevant as long as their is a path available for everyone to earn as much as they are motivated to.

If people do not want to work for it or are not smart enough to get it than it should not be given to them. As far as I know, there are multiple paths to wealth in the US.

There is nobody out to purposefully limit any specific group other than the individuals limiting themselves.

That is the party line, and it has worked extraordinarily well for the past 100 years, that's for sure. "You're poor because you didn't work as hard as I did" or "You're poor because you spent your money on stupid things and didn't invest it like I did".

What the haves always seem to fail to recognize is that most of them started with an advantage. I had Bill Gates used as an example of someone who started with nothing and created a business empire. That individual apparently wasn't aware that Gates had an Ivy league education waiting for him (not exactly cheap), and came from a wealthy family. So while he didn't start out a billionaire by any means, he was from a family that was affluent enough to buy him an ivy league education. That is a leg up in life, no matter how you want to spin it.

Telling someone from south central L.A that has grown up in generations of poverty and substance abuse that they can be CEO's of fortune 500 companies if they only work hard enough is patently ridiculous.

Are you implying that nobody has broken out of poverty on their own and that the only ones that have are the lucky ones?

I find that rather hard to believe.

You could give me the story of any person in poverty and with the exception of a debilitating accident or horrible disease affecting them, I could point out the exact errors they made in judgement that not only led them to poverty, but keeps them there.

No, nobody is forced into poverty, its something they more than likely have put themselves in.

And Bill Gates dropped out of college so going to Harvard had no impact on him.

reply to post by Spookybelle


Is it lonely up there on your pedestal where you can cast your judgment on each and every 'error' someone has made?

And good lord just noticed you say "no one has been forced into poverty"... wow Ignorant or naive? Possibly a mixture of both.

corvuscorrax
reply to post by Spookybelle

 

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal where you can cast your judgment on each and every 'error' someone has made?

And good lord just noticed you say "no one has been forced into poverty"... wow Ignorant or naive? Possibly a mixture of both.

edit on 11-11-2013 by corvuscorrax because: (no reason given)

Well you've said quite a bit but haven't shown anything to actually debate, just rambling.

Do you have evidence of some conspiracy against a group whose goal is to keep them in poverty? A situation where they have removed any and all avenues for that person to escape their poor lifestyle?

Do they go out and tell colleges not to accept people of this group or tell employers not to hire them?

If you do then I will have no problem changing my point of view.

reply to post by Spookybelle


The only thing I have evidence of is you having some sort of god complex which I felt the need to call you out on.

To say you could analyze any person and pinpoint their errors smacks of egotism in the highest degree.

Spookybelle
A disparity in wealth is irrelevant as long as their is a path available for everyone to earn as much as they are motivated to.

If people do not want to work for it or are not smart enough to get it than it should not be given to them. As far as I know, there are multiple paths to wealth in the US.

There is nobody out to purposefully limit any specific group other than the individuals limiting themselves.

It's irrelevant until the ultra rich realize how
tasty they are to us poor folk...
Then it becomes imperative.

Spookybelle
A disparity in wealth is irrelevant as long as their is a path available for everyone to earn as much as they are motivated to.

If people do not want to work for it or are not smart enough to get it than it should not be given to them. As far as I know, there are multiple paths to wealth in the US.

There is nobody out to purposefully limit any specific group other than the individuals limiting themselves.

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

― John Steinbeck

Despite what most people believe, we actually live in a country with some of the worst intergenerational economic mobility in the developed world and it's significantly worse than it has been in the past.



We need to stop pretending that everyone has an equal opportunity for success and is only limited by their own determination and wit.

corvuscorrax
reply to post by Spookybelle

 

The only thing I have evidence of is you having some sort of god complex which I felt the need to call you out on.

To say you could analyze any person and pinpoint their errors smacks of egotism in the highest degree.

Errors that led them to poverty, yes indeed. Not hard, anyone versed in common sense could do this and its not a special trait.

Seeing that someone got into debt at the age of 18 or a family bought a house they couldn't afford, hanging out with friends instead of going to college to improve your skillset, buying the newest iphone every year as opposed to saving money....all these are causes which lead many people, and keep them, in poverty.

I'm not sure why you believe I have a god complex because of that.

All I am saying is that there are paths out of poverty for any that wish to take them and as long as you have the capability, then complaining about a disparity in wealth is irrelevant.

Those who cannot work or who do not have the mental capacity to see the things to do are not included in this as they are affected by means out of their control.

reply to post by theantediluvian


Lovely graph and I would have no problem believing in your theory if someone could actually ever show how people are limited from increasing their earning capacity by an outside force.

As of yet, I am still waiting.

Did some rich group tell that young teenage girl to have 2 kids before she was 19 or did she do that on her own? How exactly are people being forced into poverty?

reply to post by Spookybelle


I find it interesting that people who are so quick to point out the errors that poor people make are equally reluctant to admit the entitlements the rich often inherited and didn't actually earn. I'd be fine with you pointing out the former if you were capable of admitting the latter.

reminds me of a study that was done recently that confirms that people with wealth generally feel entitled to their lifestyles regardless of whether or not they actually earned it:

Spookybelle
Are you implying that nobody has broken out of poverty on their own and that the only ones that have are the lucky ones?

I find that rather hard to believe.

You could give me the story of any person in poverty and with the exception of a debilitating accident or horrible disease affecting them, I could point out the exact errors they made in judgement that not only led them to poverty, but keeps them there.

No, nobody is forced into poverty, its something they more than likely have put themselves in.

And Bill Gates dropped out of college so going to Harvard had no impact on him.

Nobody, no.

Although statistically social mobility is significantly lower in the US than in other advanced nations. This means basically moving between classes. If your father was poor in US, it is more likely that you will end up poor when compared to let us say Sweden.

So you are saying that childhood environment does not play any role in one´s future? Also you have to consider genetic capabilities. Worse nutrition can lead to significant development difference, just as parental involvement during first years of life. It has been shown that on average kids from wealthy family have an upper hand of around 2 years in development already when entering school. At school a lot is dependent on the overall environment. When your school is full of mid/low level teachers and the kids are interfering with the lesson constantly (it is common in worse schools), teacher has to concentrate on the weak and your development is left behind already during first years. (Do not except a 7 year old take full responsibility over his/her future... especially if parents are not doing anything to push his/her education, which is common in ghetto). Later you are already behind in an environment which does not value education - your parents are not supportive/do not have time to spend at all towards kid´s education (I have personally witnessed some idiots who forced their kid out of high school in order to work for family company or earn money), your friends do not care about education etc etc. Social pressure is somethat that has to be considered up to some point, as inherently people want to belong. In more aggressive environments, which is common in ghettos, would like to get beaten up/ignored every day for wanting to study more? Many people simply can not tolerate something like that psychologically and rather go with the flow.

Often families are large and older kids are expected to take lots of care over younger ones. This does not leave much time to study either. When instead of studying one has to worry about whether he/she gets something to eat. Starving can make people significantly less productive.

You also have to consider IQ levels of people differ, which means nothing more than some people have the potential of learning faster than others. Some people are given the skills to learn on their own, although many require good teachers to gain better understanding of something. It largely depends on talent.

After graduating high school which is rare in ghetto areas, your parents have no money to support your higher education. You have to possibly work for years till you can afford higher education or starting a company which requires significant capital. Half of the rest of his/her life he/she has to pay student debt. When doing career, unless incredibly intelligent, he she has to prove himself first, start from very low paying jobs.

At the same time. The richer kid got the education from some of the best teachers in the world from his expensive private school. After school he gets to go to the best universities without any extra debt. He can recieve the best education schools can give, has access to some of the high-tech labs. After university he/she has already guaranteed high-paying job in daddy´s firm or in daddy´s friends firm, while excepted to take the throne one day. If he/she has an idea about making a company, family can give money for start up.

When two kids have similar intelligence level, similar work ethic, the one from very high-income family is significantly more likely to do much better off at the end.

When they were both less than average intelligence, the poor kid is very likely to end up at the bottom, while the rich kids still does well.


I do not say it is impossible to rise high, although in US the more money your parents have, the better hand you have compared to others, while in other advanced nations one´s education levels and overall success in lif have far less to do with their parents. The guy from ghetto gets the same education as the son of a billionaire.

Cabin
When a family is worth more than 100,000,000 citizens of the same country combined or the net worth of a single man is higher than 70,000,000 citizens of the same country combined, there is something seriously wrong...

Let us start here then. Why do you believe there is something seriously wrong? If that "family" or that "man" has risen to such wealth, are they inherently wrong? Evil? Notorious?

Wealth inequality will always exist, as there will always be those who have something that another wants; more oxen, more land, more 'money', more...

What is the bigger issue is the environment in which we are all equally applied to; regardless of our station, in which we can strive to be more than what some Internet video likes to peg us as. There are still a multitude of stories streaming out of which people from the destitute to the mediocre, have risen to the occasion and somehow, despite what videos such as these say, drove themselves out of poverty or whatever situation they were in.

I am sure it speaking into a hallow cave though; rich people suck!

reply to post by Spookybelle

How exactly are people being forced into poverty?

Wealthy people moving jobs overseas and cutting jobs to increase profit forces people into poverty. These poor wealthy people that are already making record profits are screwing over America just for more money. Greed should be viewed as a mental illness.

Spookybelle
A disparity in wealth is irrelevant as long as their is a path available for everyone to earn as much as they are motivated to.

If people do not want to work for it or are not smart enough to get it than it should not be given to them. As far as I know, there are multiple paths to wealth in the US.

There is nobody out to purposefully limit any specific group other than the individuals limiting themselves.

Eliminating competition. Monopolies?

are you really that lost?

or just shilling for the ELITES?

reply to post by ownbestenemy


These six people did not work together more than these 100,000,000 people. They inherited it. They are growing their capital, making their income largely off some of these 100,000,000 . Do you think there is a choice in current economy, where finding a job is tough enough. When you are starving you would rather take an 8 dollars an hour job than not do anything at all. Many companies are simply using the desperation of people to pay less and their owners who did nothing at that time increase their wealth simply from having the shares, while others have to work 2 jobs and still starve.


I am talking about similar opportunities. When one person has to nearly work himself to death and other was simply born in the right family, these are not equal opportunities by any standard.

One is a slim chance if you work very hard, the other is a birthright.

I am also not talking about absolute equality, but no person deserves earning even 100 times more than the other, not even talking about 380 times. At such high spots as CEOs, it largely comes down to genetics. You need good genes, high intelligence, high stress-tolerance to stay that high. These are not trainable, but genes. Very often CEOs are chosen from among family/friends.

I would understand 20x times difference. Isn´t that enough of incentive to work hard to be able to earn 20 times more than the other?

ownbestenemy

Cabin
When a family is worth more than 100,000,000 citizens of the same country combined or the net worth of a single man is higher than 70,000,000 citizens of the same country combined, there is something seriously wrong...

Let us start here then. Why do you believe there is something seriously wrong? If that "family" or that "man" has risen to such wealth, are they inherently wrong? Evil? Notorious?

Wealth inequality will always exist, as there will always be those who have something that another wants; more oxen, more land, more 'money', more...

What is the bigger issue is the environment in which we are all equally applied to; regardless of our station, in which we can strive to be more than what some Internet video likes to peg us as. There are still a multitude of stories streaming out of which people from the destitute to the mediocre, have risen to the occasion and somehow, despite what videos such as these say, drove themselves out of poverty or whatever situation they were in.

I am sure it speaking into a hallow cave though; rich people suck!

The frequency of your exposure to anecdotes of personal success carries little substantive value. The reality is that since the 1970s, economic disparity has increased and with it social mobility has stagnated. There are several reasons, but one of the single biggest has to be the loss of good paying jobs in manufacturing. It was these jobs that supported our large middle class from the 50s-70s.

They note that the American economy has seen the lower and middle components of the value-added chain moving to the rapidly growing markets abroad and warn that soon higher-paying jobs may follow low-paying jobs in leaving the United States. The actions of the free market have made goods less expensive for Americans, but the free flow of labor and capital has also diminished the employment opportunities available in the United States and will, the authors warn, continue to do so at all levels of society.

The Evolving Structure of the American Economy and the Employment Challenge

reply to post by DeadSeraph


I am not reluctant to admit that the rich are given many benefits as its an obvious fact.

Its also totally irrelevant to how a person in poverty can get out of it.