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Massive civilian slaughter by US Marines in Falluja

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posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by crisko
Regardless, the citizens and the government of the city harbored and aided the insurgents.

A choice they made.


Indeed. The brave iraqi people support the heroic resistance against the criminal occupier. I am happy you are beginning to see this.




posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:09 AM
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As for the idea that civilians "chose" to die in bombings and raids by the US, this may not be true. There have been numerous accounts of civilians being threatened with death by insurgents holding ground in cities should they "choose" to leave.

These insurgents, in many cases, count on civilians being close to them either for the purpose of thwarting US bombing efforts, or inciting outrage on the part of the indigeony and people around the world when innocents are killed.

The exploitation of the civilian population in these ways is just another tactic that these fighters use to achieve another primary goal, which is recruitment. The more it can seem that America is committing atrocities, whether or not it is true in all cases, the more young muslims will rise to the call, and the more international support will wane.

The goal is to make the Western world, and particularly America, more and more unpopular, especially at home.

I am pretty sure that it will work, the longer this war takes.

[edit on 17-11-2004 by DeltaChaos]



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by DeusEx

Originally posted by SupaFly
So, you're saying if you had a choice of getting away from the fighting or staying, that you would stay? If I had the option of a camp, I would take it. It's probably not the best situation, but it's better than being in the middle of it all.


Well, let's put this into persepctive:

1. You attempt to escape the city, armed. The US catches you and shoots you on sight. Game over.

2. You attempt to escape unarmed. The US, terrorists, or bandits catches you, and shoots you on sight. Game over.

3. You stay in your house, and hope it doesn't get carpet bombed.


Now, think about those choices, except you have a family to think about.

DE


I understand your points, but now look at what is going on. The people who chose to stay are without food, meds, and water.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by PigeonFlyer
FlyersFan,

Exactly...As far as I am concerned, anyone left there after the leaflets were dropped are insurgents. The peaceful population should have left, by whatever means possible. And I believe they did. Anyone left are open targets.


Sorry to say, but this is not about belief but about fact. MAny people werent allowed to leave the city.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:11 AM
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We don't carpet bomb cities.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

Originally posted by PigeonFlyer
FlyersFan,

Exactly...As far as I am concerned, anyone left there after the leaflets were dropped are insurgents. The peaceful population should have left, by whatever means possible. And I believe they did. Anyone left are open targets.


Sorry to say, but this is not about belief but about fact. MAny people werent allowed to leave the city.


We tried peaceful negotations for over 6 months!



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:14 AM
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I just don't understand that after the leaflets were dropped and the time limit was up, we didn't just carpet-bomb the entire city. We are going to have to re-build the city anyway, lets do it right. Drop 15 or 20 of the Daisy-Cutters and get it over with. I do not understand why we go in and only do it half right. I would like to see someone like Gen. George Patton or Gen. Blackjack Pershing running this operation.
But I am glad that it is going on over "there" than over "here". My two sons are now out of harms way, but they would love to get back into it.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:16 AM
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Many MALES were not allowed to leave by US forces with the reasoning that any male could become an insurgent, or may already be an insurgent simply blending in to the populous, intending to return to Falluja to fight after the raid.

Anyone who believes that people who were left after leaflets fell, simply choose to believe one way without considering other possibilites. This 'choosing' to believe would be just as unfortunate as if citizens of Falluja 'chose' to stay and be bombed.

Understand the tactics and strategy of the opposition, and consider more possibilities than 'well, if they don't leave when they're told to leave, they must be stupid', or whatever half-baked rationale justifies a statement like that.

Oh, and Deny Ignorance...

[edit]Man, the post just below this one is so ironic it's SICK!

[edit on 17-11-2004 by DeltaChaos]



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:19 AM
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They have seen what we have done in the past and know we won't pull the punches. If they stay, they are STUPID. The populace knows we mean business. I assume you would stay?



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by PigeonFlyer
I just don't understand that after the leaflets were dropped and the time limit was up, we didn't just carpet-bomb the entire city.


Read my above post (both of them). These fighters use civilians as shields, and to gain support around the world when they force them to remain in harms way.


We are going to have to re-build the city anyway, lets do it right. Drop 15 or 20 of the Daisy-Cutters and get it over with. I do not understand why we go in and only do it half right.


I would rather it be done half right, which it currently is, than completely wrong which your above statement is.


I would like to see someone like Gen. George Patton or Gen. Blackjack Pershing running this operation.


Remember, these generals fought in an era when FOXNews, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS didn't exist on the battlefield to keep our military in check, even though their purpose is ultimately to make us look better than we are. If you're interested in battlefield atrocity, which you seem to be, read some non-revisionist history on the exploits of Patton. If media were there, he really would have been fired long before he became a national hero. In fact, it's unfortunate that if it weren't for his atrocities, he would have failed altogether.

You really seem angry. You seem to be just OK will indiscriminate killing and death. If this is for the sake of saving American lives, I can understand that, I was a soldier once. When Iraq holds it's place in history, however, it will likely cost us more than soldier's lives. Keep that in mind

[edit on 17-11-2004 by DeltaChaos]



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:31 AM
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Gosh, where was Ernie Pyle? I guess he was vacationing in the South Pacific when he was killed. I will re-read some of the history of WWII. I guess I missed something.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 09:32 AM
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All I have to add is that many of these civilians were already dead, killed by the real terrrorist occupiers. Whe US troops move through, they give medical aid and food to the Iraqis, these "insurgence" are not Iraqi nationals but terrorist from other countires. When they come in, they rape, mutilate and murder..women and children. They set up rooms of hostages wired with explosives all to make the US appear to kill more civilians. They disembowell women and rape the carcass. Man, if thats religious philosophy, you can have it.

No honorable men fight this way. Only cowards lower than pigs.

Oh, good to see you back Moku. Haven't seen your side of things for a while. Been busy I guess.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
They were told for days and days to get out if you will recall.

While I despise collateral damage...these people basically CHOSE it...for themselves, and unfortunately, for their children who had no say in the matter.

You can't expect to conduct urban warfare without civilian casualties. We did everything we could do to minimize this...more than any other power in history. If they chose to ignore the warnings....well, there you go.



To me and Im sure to many on here, this is enough said. Thanks Gazrok.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Peeder

Originally posted by Gazrok
They were told for days and days to get out if you will recall.

While I despise collateral damage...these people basically CHOSE it...for themselves, and unfortunately, for their children who had no say in the matter.

You can't expect to conduct urban warfare without civilian casualties. We did everything we could do to minimize this...more than any other power in history. If they chose to ignore the warnings....well, there you go.



To me and Im sure to many on here, this is enough said. Thanks Gazrok.


Unfortunately, it's wrong. And even more unfortunately, you people will just go on believing that the Iraqi civilians are to blame for not getting out of Dodge, when it's more likely that many of them had no choice.

[edit on 17-11-2004 by DeltaChaos]



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 10:51 AM
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I already posted it, but since many people don't seem to read the thread :

U.S. Troops Force Men Trying to Flee Assault on Fallujah to Return to City

abcnews.go.com...



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 10:52 AM
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just saying this but they where told they could leave days before, now the camps were not there days ago where they?
if they where they would be in terrble condition adn probably more dangerous than the city was.
if they where not , where are they going to go?
if the military is going to attack a place where there are going to be civilians then they need to think about these things.
now for the person that said it was shoot,move,cooperate was it?
that is probably the best way to get your team shot or your troop shooting another troop.
what about a quick ID ,as in do they have a gun?
do they have 20 pounds of C4-1 to their chests/backs.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by SupaFly

Originally posted by DeusEx
Well, let's put this into persepctive:
1. You attempt to escape the city, armed. The US catches you and shoots you on sight. Game over.

2. You attempt to escape unarmed. The US, terrorists, or bandits catches you, and shoots you on sight. Game over.

3. You stay in your house, and hope it doesn't get carpet bombed.

Now, think about those choices, except you have a family to think about.

DE


I understand your points, but now look at what is going on. The people who chose to stay are without food, meds, and water.


If I were them, I'd rather go hungry for a few days than end up with me bullet in me. Or done s'ploded.

Oh, and about the carpet bombing...my mistake. Just hope your home doesn't get regular bombed.

DE



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 01:39 PM
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im sure lots of the civys that stayed behind may have been killed. either way something had to be done with the situation in falluja. they tried peaceful negotiations which failed so they went with a telegraphed invasion to allow innocents to leave. Yes some people did not have a choice either due to the terrorists (which are very scary people if you havnt noticed yet) or being a male and being turned back to prevent the insurgents themselves from leaving. The US forces did what they could to reduce the amount of civilian death's. Being in a free fire zone against an invading force which has only one thing on their mind, staying alive would be far from safe, especially with an incredible amount of firepower supporting the invasion.

I think the message is clear now... The gloves are off and if you choose to run around with a mask and a gun your going to be killed. Its the only thing that will make things better in iraq.



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
I already posted it, but since many people don't seem to read the thread :

U.S. Troops Force Men Trying to Flee Assault on Fallujah to Return to City

abcnews.go.com...


Just to add to that, they were shooting people who tried to escape.


ABC News
"I decided to swim but I changed my mind after seeing U.S. helicopters firing on and killing people who tried to cross the river."

He watched horrified as a family of five was shot dead as they tried to cross. Then, he "helped bury a man by the river bank, with my own hands."

"I kept walking along the river for two hours and I could still see some U.S. snipers ready to shoot anyone who might swim. I quit the idea of crossing the river and walked for about five hours through orchards."



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 02:18 PM
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So, you're saying if you had a choice of getting away from the fighting or staying, that you would stay? If I had the option of a camp, I would take it. It's probably not the best situation, but it's better than being in the middle of it all.

B.S. You would stay and fight for your city just as any other person would do the same.



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