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Some basic problems I have with believing chemtrail exist

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posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:22 PM
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Here's the basic list of problems I have with the chemtrail "theory" - I'd be interested in any contrary evidence to debunk any of them, as I have not seen any so far.

1. Contrail persistence is nothing new or abnormal - there is ample evidence of them in WW2, and some from before then.

2. Geoengineering wouldn't take place at altitudes being seen - it would be in the stratosphere - airliners and contrails aer only operating in the lower part of het stratosphere, and that not all the time. The aircraft being seen are not capable of accomplishing effective geoengineering at eh sort of altitudes being proposed.

3. there is a distinct frequency of less "chemtrail" reports during the previously documented seasonal lull in summer time.

4.The rain, snow, dust hair and blood samples show nothing unusual - dirt literally blows in the wind!

5. Historical records of aerosol, particulate, atmospheric solar transmission/dimming do not indicate perturbations which would be a sign of ongoing geoengineering. cities around the world have publically available data on air pollution you can check!

6. Patents are simply ideas and what is described in the patents being touted as evidence of geoengineering do not align with what is being seen and no evidence exists to indicate these patents are in use.

7. The ice budget argument - contrails contain massively more water than aircraft can actually carry, and water is lighter than any of the proposed substances, so there's no way any aircraft could actually carry enough of anything to make a trail that big in the first place!

8. The fact that such a large-scale, multi-national operation has been kept secret, despite the fact that hundreds, if not thousands (or tens of thousands) of people would be required to implement such a programme. Contrary to popular belief, the Manhattan project was not kept secret - there were Soviet spies in it - and to the extent that it was kept secret it took wartime, physical isolation, and considerably less social media than exists right now.

9. The colors seen in some trails can only be made by refraction from ice crystals, and not from a powder. Look up Refraction.

10. The gap between engine and trails indicates they are JUST condensing water. Trails of anything else would not have any gap - water has it because it takes a small time to freeze, and until it does so it is invisible water vapour.

11. Grid patterns are the inevitable result of intersecting routes, and wind.

12. Everything that's been identified as a chemtrail has, IMO, looked, behaved and been generated exactly like a contrail. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the oft repeated idea that "contrails always dissipate quickly"




posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:31 PM
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This
and
this
make this thread obsolete doesn't it? They are spraying/have sprayed and will most likely do it again.


Is this as nefarious as some people believe? Maybe, maybe not, but it is proof that they are spraying.
edit on 10-11-2013 by superman2012 because: edited for clarity



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:41 PM
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superman2012
This


title:

CIA Is Funding Government-Led Chemtrail Project: Spy Agency to Help Study “Security Impacts” of Geo-engineering

Not that I can see.

If you actually READ THE CONTENT at that link the first sentence is:


The CIA is funding a scientific study to determine the feasibility of altering the planet’s climate in order to stave off climate change, according to documents released by The National Academy of Sciences.


so it is a study of whether or not geoengineering is feasible - it is not actually doing anything moer than that.


and
this


title: The Army Sprayed St. Louis With Toxic Aerosol During A Just Revealed 1950s Test

not from airliners, not started in 1950, not for geoengineering, easily detected.....ticks none of the boxes for geoengineering/chemtrails at all!!

(there's also several threads discussing it on here)


make this thread obsolete doesn't it?


not that I can see.


They are spraying/have sprayed and will most likely do it again.


Indeed "they" are "spraying" - insecticides, herbicides, water bombers, cloud seeding, and yes tests to see how far chemical warfare agents might spread - which went on until the 1970's, not just he 1950's.

But none of these are the chemtrails people are complaining about - long white lines in the sky at high altitude that can expand out into clouds, that come from airliners, that have a gap between them and the engines, etc.


Is this as nefarious as some people believe? Maybe, maybe not, but it is proof that they are spraying


no, it isn't.

Neither of your links are evidence that they ARE spraying in any way shape or form.....unless you re not actually interested in reading what they ARE saying!

So, please, if you ARE going to debunk any of these points PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take a 2nd look at what you consider evidence before you show that you don't actually understand what it is you are presenting!!

edit on 10-11-2013 by Aloysius the Gaul because: tags



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Keep reading young one and you will see this:

Indeed, as we reported last year, a Harvard University project experiment funded by Microsoft founder Bill Gates saw thousands of tonnes of sulphur particles sprayed over New Mexico as part of a geoengineering study, despite the fact that even staunch environmentalists have warned the process could have catastrophic effects on the earth’s eco-system.

This is just one example of a practice that has now been in operation for years, if not decades.


Has happened. Read the content.




So, please, if you ARE going to debunk any of these points PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take a 2nd look at what you consider evidence before you show that you don't actually understand what it is you are presenting!!

Same goes for you bub.
lol

I'm not debunking, only providing evidence that you asked for. If you want to move the goalposts go right ahead. If you are looking for answers, ask the questions you want answered as specifically as possible. It's easy enough. That way no side can move the goalposts.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

From a balloon, not an airplane.

US geoengineers to spray sun-reflecting chemicals from balloon
Has nothing to do with "chemtrails" and is NOT and indication they have been doing it for years, it's an indication they are going to do it once from a balloon.
www.theguardian.com...
edit on 10-11-2013 by tanda7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:08 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Keep reading young one and you will see this:

Indeed, as we reported last year, a Harvard University project experiment funded by Microsoft founder Bill Gates saw thousands of tonnes of sulphur particles sprayed over New Mexico as part of a geoengineering study, despite the fact that even staunch environmentalists have warned the process could have catastrophic effects on the earth’s eco-system.

This is just one example of a practice that has now been in operation for years, if not decades.


Has happened. Read the content.


so not contrails then....

I'm looking on the 'net to see if it ever actually happened but can't find anything other than articles saying that it is planned - do you have any info on it's results?

Found something:

The story is substantially fabricated.

The actual proposal is discussed here - the experiment would use "micro" amounts of sulphates to see how they combined with the atmosphere - not in any attempt to actualy change the climate of anywhere.

They were looking for funding in 2012 to carry it out in 2013

but nothing about it actually being done or any results.





Same goes for you bub.
lol

I'm not debunking, only providing evidence that you asked for. If you want to move the goalposts go right ahead. If you are looking for answers, ask the questions you want answered as specifically as possible. It's easy enough. That way no side can move the goalposts.


Perhaps you can advise which of my points you think you debunked, because I can't see what it is you think you answered.
edit on 10-11-2013 by Aloysius the Gaul because: Info about sulphates test in New Mexico



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by tanda7
 


lol

So it must be from an airplane to be considered a chemtrail? Okay. Now we are getting closer to what you people require as proof.

Any other goalpost movers?

I don't believe the government wants us all dead either, I just provided what was asked of me and now I can't stop laughing from all the movement!
At least narrow down what you need.

Can the plane be flying East to West?
Can it be after 5pm? EST?
I can think of many more sarcastic questions but I leave it, and this joke thread, alone now.


Take care.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:11 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:20 PM
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superman2012
reply to post by tanda7
 


lol

So it must be from an airplane to be considered a chemtrail? Okay. Now we are getting closer to what you people require as proof.

Any other goalpost movers?


Perhaps you missed some of the items in the list:


1. Contrail persistence is nothing new or abnormal - there is ample evidence of them in WW2, and some from before then.

2. Geoengineering wouldn't take place at altitudes being seen - it would be in the stratosphere - airliners and contrails are only operating in the lower part of het stratosphere, and that not all the time. The aircraft being seen are not capable of accomplishing effective geoengineering at eh sort of altitudes being proposed.

7. The ice budget argument - contrails contain massively more water than aircraft can actually carry, and water is lighter than any of the proposed substances, so there's no way any aircraft could actually carry enough of anything to make a trail that big in the first place!

10. The gap between engine and trails indicates they are JUST condensing water. Trails of anything else would not have any gap - water has it because it takes a small time to freeze, and until it does so it is invisible water vapour.

11. Grid patterns are the inevitable result of intersecting routes, and wind.

12. Everything that's been identified as a chemtrail has, IMO, looked, behaved and been generated exactly like a contrail. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the oft repeated idea that "contrails always dissipate quickly"


No movement of goalposts required for you to miss that one.


I don't believe the government wants us all dead either, I just provided what was asked of me and now I can't stop laughing from all the movement!
At least narrow down what you need.

Can the plane be flying East to West?
Can it be after 5pm? EST?
I can think of many more sarcastic questions but I leave it, and this joke thread, alone now.


sorry you can't handle being wrong, but you won't be missed.


edit on 10-11-2013 by Aloysius the Gaul because: tag
edit on 10-11-2013 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:20 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:34 PM
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Military chaff has been sprayed in abundant amounts over our skies for years now. It is an established fact, it comes from jets, and it is tiny fiberglass threads coated in aluminum with barium thrown in.

Please see: www.accuweather.com...

www.huffingtonpost.com...

drrimatruthreports.com...





You get my drift, don't you? Please don't say that NOTHING is being sprayed in our skies, because that definitely is not true.
edit on 10-11-2013 by FissionSurplus because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by FissionSurplus
 

Indeed - not sure about the barium content - but chaff certainly has been used for ages.

Of course it is not actually visible, not used by airliners (except maybe El Al??), wouldn't be dropped in cruise if it was, doesn't come from engines, is readily visible if it reaches the ground.

So which point of mine does that debunk??



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

Look, I was on the fence about this issue for a long time and indeed I still perk up when someone has information to shed light on the subject.
The point of my reply was to show you the article you referenced is in no way proof and is really not even evidence of "chemtrails". I promise I will be receptive to future information, but what you have presented falls way short.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:53 PM
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I think there is $52.6 billion worth of reasons why you are wrong and why you need to keep digging and asking yourself why the patterns in the sky weren't there when you were a kid.
Because I can categorically state that in the area that i grew up in there were the small contrails from the back of the jet high in the sky, late in the 90's early in the last decade things changed to what we have now.

The Clip I posted is on underground bases, the reason being is that these are validated as being real and thus expenditure from the so called black budget is validated.
So is chemical spraying plausible under a black budget scheme, "you betcha"








rt.com...



Shrouded in secrecy, the amount that Uncle Sam sets aside for sensitive operations each year is not allowed to be published for eyes outside of the intelligence community and only for a portion of those briefed on its operations. The latest Snowden leak reveals that at $52.6 billion, the government is actually handing out 2.3 percent fewer than it did in fiscal year 2012 and, additionally, sequestration has caused the agencies to shed 1,241 positions, or around one percent of its workforce. Despite these setbacks, though, the budget, described by the Post as “a bureaucratic and operational landscape that has never been subject to public scrutiny,” includes billions of dollars towards operations that may not be funded if debated in the press.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 10:01 PM
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Aloysius the Gaul
Here's the basic list of problems I have with the chemtrail "theory" - I'd be interested in any contrary evidence to debunk any of them, as I have not seen any so far.

1. Contrail persistence is nothing new or abnormal - there is ample evidence of them in WW2, and some from before then.

This isn't a problem or anything interesting but a statement of fact that is not in dispute.

2. Geoengineering wouldn't take place at altitudes being seen - it would be in the stratosphere - airliners and contrails aer only operating in the lower part of het stratosphere, and that not all the time. The aircraft being seen are not capable of accomplishing effective geoengineering at eh sort of altitudes being proposed.

This is your assumption of the process and the purpose, which may or may not be in alignment with the effort. You assume too much for this "question" to be useful.

3. there is a distinct frequency of less "chemtrail" reports during the previously documented seasonal lull in summer time.

Yes there is. The reason is the effort is related to blocking out certain, not all, but certain frequencies associated with solar output. In fact, the effort is for consciousness frequencies which are no measured by most people. Those who are involved are told what they are doing is for the good of humanity.

4.The rain, snow, dust hair and blood samples show nothing unusual - dirt literally blows in the wind!

This doesn't make much sense at all. Samples from where, who, what? So the wind blows, I'm unclear as to why this "question" really makes your point.

5. Historical records of aerosol, particulate, atmospheric solar transmission/dimming do not indicate perturbations which would be a sign of ongoing geoengineering. cities around the world have publically available data on air pollution you can check!

Again, relative to what? You suggest you studied data, data that has not been altered, which was designed to track such things. You also suggest that the data that has been created, for tracking chems, is the right perimeters. It is possible they are looking at x, when y is the thing they should be looking at.

6. Patents are simply ideas and what is described in the patents being touted as evidence of geoengineering do not align with what is being seen and no evidence exists to indicate these patents are in use.

The DOD classifies patents they feel that are in the interest of national security. You also haven't looked a the patent catalog of other countries. It is ENTIRELY possible the effort stems from another country and the US simply follows orders. Simply because there has been a patent filed, which is supposed to work btw, does not mean anything at all. The DOD vets every patent filed and confiscates the one's they feel they need to.

7. The ice budget argument - contrails contain massively more water than aircraft can actually carry, and water is lighter than any of the proposed substances, so there's no way any aircraft could actually carry enough of anything to make a trail that big in the first place!

So you say. Not really a statement of fact but an opinion. The DOD does a lot of things that can't be done.

8. The fact that such a large-scale, multi-national operation has been kept secret, despite the fact that hundreds, if not thousands (or tens of thousands) of people would be required to implement such a programme. Contrary to popular belief, the Manhattan project was not kept secret - there were Soviet spies in it - and to the extent that it was kept secret it took wartime, physical isolation, and considerably less social media than exists right now.

It isn't being kept secret. It is right out in the open, they simply deny it. There is a difference. What has been done is directly out in the open, what is also done is the systematic denial of the effort. Now, have the governments of the world every denied they were doing anything they were doing? Has any government put forth an effort to put out information that worked to deny something they were doing?

9. The colors seen in some trails can only be made by refraction from ice crystals, and not from a powder. Look up Refraction.

So what. This proves nothing at all other then there is another explanation just as good as the one offered by those who suggest the chem spray is chem spray. Offering another possible explanation is not proof the real reason isn't true.

10. The gap between engine and trails indicates they are JUST condensing water. Trails of anything else would not have any gap - water has it because it takes a small time to freeze, and until it does so it is invisible water vapour.

They? All planes, this argument can only be useful if you put up pictures showing what you mean.

11. Grid patterns are the inevitable result of intersecting routes, and wind.

Here you have a HUGE problem. Were the patterns due to traffic they would be seen in mostly the same pattern everyday, as to look at a flight map of say the North East, plane routes are the same everyday, all year long with the exception of a few here and there. But, the grid patterns, some complete with u-turns, defy the daily patterns. This one you can debunk if you wanted by simply visually tracking he planes on a sky-grid day with what is seen on any of the various trackers. If you live near the ocean you will find the grid patterns out over the ocean, done to drift over the mainland, so the explanation of "just plane routes" fails.

12. Everything that's been identified as a chemtrail has, IMO, looked, behaved and been generated exactly like a contrail. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the oft repeated idea that "contrails always dissipate quickly"


Some contrails do dissipate quickly, so this point seems useless in your effort.

The chemtrails are several layers deep in purpose. The main purpose is to stop solar energy from arriving in tact, not stopping it entirely, but to diffuse it to the point that humans cannot connect with it. You will see the grids occurring on days when there is certain types of solar activity, and the grids happen in a geometric pattern to stop it - ergo not everywhere gets it every time. Aluminum, barium are the reported main elements, both block things very well. They do it far less these days as they have altered the process of protecting the planet from the consciousness raising frequencies delivered from the sun and the galaxy.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 10:18 PM
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I have no problem believing that a chemtrail program exists. I have observed
them being laid, with my own eyes, over the course of years now.
The funny thing is that there has been none over the last month or so, so
my question is have they been forcefully stopped or is the program itself complete?

I am leaning toward the latter.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 10:47 PM
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PLAYERONE01
I think there is $52.6 billion worth of reasons why you are wrong and why you need to keep digging and asking yourself why the patterns in the sky weren't there when you were a kid.


They were there when I was akid.
I grew up in Christchurch, New Zealand, and when the Boeing 737's arrived for the domestic airline NAC contrails started spanning the sky in summer from flights between Wellington and Dunedin, and they'd still be there when the flight went back the other way an hour or 2 later.

Then a few years later in 1976 I started working on those same aircraft as an apprentice aircraft mechanic.


Because I can categorically state that in the area that i grew up in there were the small contrails from the back of the jet high in the sky, late in the 90's early in the last decade things changed to what we have now.


I have no problems with that being the case.

But which of my points does it address??



The Clip I posted is on underground bases, the reason being is that these are validated as being real and thus expenditure from the so called black budget is validated.
So is chemical spraying plausible under a black budget scheme, "you betcha"


See my point 8.

I've been working in civil aviation since 1976 - in various roles to do with aircraft maintenance for airlines including as a mechanic, as a maintenance planner, as a quality assurance engineer, and yes, for a national airworthiness authority.

I'd be interested in any evidence you have that this "black budget scheme" for chemtrails actually exists.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 11:03 PM
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crankyoldman

This is your assumption of the process and the purpose, which may or may not be in alignment with the effort. You assume too much for this "question" to be useful.


So debunk it - identify my assumptions - show how they are wrong.


Yes there is. The reason is the effort is related to blocking out certain, not all, but certain frequencies associated with solar output. In fact, the effort is for consciousness frequencies which are no measured by most people. Those who are involved are told what they are doing is for the good of humanity.


Evidence??


This doesn't make much sense at all. Samples from where, who, what? So the wind blows, I'm unclear as to why this "question" really makes your point.


It makes perfect sense when you consider the number of people pointing to aluminum and barium and strontium in rainwater and saying this is proof of chemtrails. Unless they can remove normal atmospheric dust from their samples their assays are useless as evidence.


Again, relative to what? You suggest you studied data, data that has not been altered, which was designed to track such things. You also suggest that the data that has been created, for tracking chems, is the right perimeters. It is possible they are looking at x, when y is the thing they should be looking at.


So debunk it......what is the problem? There is certainly data in California, for example, on aluminium levels in water....


The DOD classifies patents they feel that are in the interest of national security. You also haven't looked a the patent catalog of other countries. It is ENTIRELY possible the effort stems from another country and the US simply follows orders. Simply because there has been a patent filed, which is supposed to work btw, does not mean anything at all. The DOD vets every patent filed and confiscates the one's they feel they need to.


The lists of patents put up by believers in chemtrails are the data here.

If you have evidence to support your other claims by all means please provide it.


So you say. Not really a statement of fact but an opinion.


No - a statement of fact. The average density of cirrus cloud is known, and it is possible to calculate how much water there is in a contrail of given dimensions. I have done so on here in a thread called, IIRC "How much water in that cirrus cloud" - a contrail a couple of , max, about 250 tons IIRC - including fuel - so if its trail was entirely made up of something it carried it would only be a few hundred Km long - but contrails are sometimes much longer than that - hence it is not possible for them to have been generated solely by material carried on board any aircraft.


The DOD does a lot of things that can't be done.


Evidence relevant to chemtrails?


It isn't being kept secret. It is right out in the open, they simply deny it. There is a difference. What has been done is directly out in the open, what is also done is the systematic denial of the effort. Now, have the governments of the world every denied they were doing anything they were doing? Has any government put forth an effort to put out information that worked to deny something they were doing?


Not sure what your final point means - but "it" is secret - no-one knows where the aircraft are based, no-one knows what the secret materials are, there are no credible whistle blowers, there are no mechanisms for how it is done, no-one actually agrees what "it" is for.

You see long white lines in the sky sure - but there is not more information around apart from that. So everything else is a secret.

Or there is no everything else and it's "just" contrails.


So what. This proves nothing at all other then there is another explanation just as good as the one offered by those who suggest the chem spray is chem spray. Offering another possible explanation is not proof the real reason isn't true.


Really??

I have one simple explanation for which there is bucketloads of evidence and one really complicated one for which there is no evidence then I'm going to believe the simple one.


They? All planes, this argument can only be useful if you put up pictures showing what you mean.


If you do not know what a contrail looks like then I suggest you're not really serious about this - there are pictures of them on the 'net - go do some of that research for yourself chemmies are often telling everyone to do.


Here you have a HUGE problem. Were the patterns due to traffic they would be seen in mostly the same pattern everyday, as to look at a flight map of say the North East, plane routes are the same everyday, all year long with the exception of a few here and there. But, the grid patterns, some complete with u-turns, defy the daily patterns. This one you can debunk if you wanted by simply visually tracking he planes on a sky-grid day with what is seen on any of the various trackers. If you live near the ocean you will find the grid patterns out over the ocean, done to drift over the mainland, so the explanation of "just plane routes" fails.


Surely where the pattens occur depends on atmospheric conditions - you aren't going to get the same patterns every day because the atmosphere is different every day.

So your objection sort of founders right at the start.


Some contrails do dissipate quickly, so this point seems useless in your effort.


I dot' see that. Sure some contrails dissipate quickly. But some don't. And the ones that don't seem to be the ones that cause the angst, and they still form, behave and spread exactly like contrails have always been known to do.


The chemtrails are several layers deep in purpose. The main purpose is to stop solar energy from arriving in tact, not stopping it entirely, but to diffuse it to the point that humans cannot connect with it. You will see the grids occurring on days when there is certain types of solar activity, and the grids happen in a geometric pattern to stop it - ergo not everywhere gets it every time. Aluminum, barium are the reported main elements, both block things very well. They do it far less these days as they have altered the process of protecting the planet from the consciousness raising frequencies delivered from the sun and the galaxy.


Uh huh - well above you tell me that something is not a fact and is only my opinion, despite me actually having evidence to back it up.

So how about some evidence to back up this last paragraph of yours??
edit on 10-11-2013 by Aloysius the Gaul because: tags



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 11:07 PM
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OneFreeMan
I have no problem believing that a chemtrail program exists. I have observed
them being laid, with my own eyes, over the course of years now.


How can you tell they are chemtrails?



The funny thing is that there has been none over the last month or so, so
my question is have they been forcefully stopped or is the program itself complete?

I am leaning toward the latter.


Yeah occasionally people have mentioned they have stopped - somewhere on here there is a thread about how you can supposedly pay to have them suspended over your area.

However they are still being reported all around the world - eg see these guys



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


So it must be from an airplane to be considered a chemtrail?

I suppose a fart could be considered a "chemtrail", but that doesn't seem to fit the following DEFINITION:

a visible trail left in the sky by an aircraft and believed by some to consist of chemical or biological agents released as part of a covert operation, rather than the condensed water of a vapour trail



Any other goalpost movers?

Yep! A lot of "chemtrail" believers do the same thing you tried to do.

See ya,
Milt
edit on 282America/Chicago11RAmerica/Chicago2013-11-10T23:46:05-06:00Sundayu05America/Chicago by BenReclused because: Typo






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