Does The Poppy Glorify War?

reply to post by Ismail


Right, its time to get real. I like the next man do not like war, it is a terrible horrific event. No matter the politics, no matter the reason, war is bad but unfortunately war does indeed exists. And it will exist for sometime yet. But (and here is were it get controversial) war has actually made human/technological progression speed up by a considerable margin.

Somewhat ironically war has actually made our world a more comfortable safer place to live. If it wasn't for those "stupid heroes" you refuse to show respect too you wouldn't even have the ability to post on ATS as the computer was invented during the bloodiest war in human history WW2.

Everyone always bangs on about how they died for our country, a "rich man", a government or a religion. When the truth is that soldiers and civilians of all nations across all wars died for Humanity. They died so that one day in the distant future we can and will live in a world (perhaps a universe) with no wars and that deserves the respect of not just me or you but every Human who lives and will ever live.

ALS

Ok, so tomorrow I cross the freeway in such a drunken stupor that I don't even *know* that I'm crossing a freeway, and I get hit by a car, go flying into an oncoming truck, and die. Should I be glorified ? No, because I died a stupid avoidable death.

Rewind to 1916, Johnny is crossing a muddy field with hundreds of other young chaps who don't have a clue why they are shooting at people and/or getting shot at, but who are shooting and getting shot at all the same.

Predictably, Johnny gets hit by a mortar, which happens surprisingly often in hazardous environements like warzones, and his body gets splashed around the french countryside like a can of paint.

How come he gets glorified, and I don't ? I mean at least I have an excuse, because I was drunk. Where is the glory in dying a meaningless death for someone elses interests ? What is there to honor in being indoctrinated into getting killed by people you don't even know, because your country tells you so ?

Would these guys have been fighting if they knew that the economical consequences of Germany loosing the war would lead to the election of Hitler, and another world war for their children to fight ? It's not glorifing the dead, it's glorifing lemmings. Unquestioning obedience does not deserve respect. My respect goes to the deserters who were shot trying to leave. My respect goes those who refused to fight.

Those who fought and got killed ? That's what happens when you play with guns because another man tells you to, and you did'nt have either the brain or the balls to tell him to shove off.


Edit to add : My great grandad was a first world war hero. He had more medals than I could count, and got through the whole thing without a scratch. He got them by, quote, "killing a lot of men". He was not proud of what he did, and he did not wear the poppy. He felt that many of his friends, and the men that he had killed had died for no reason, and that there was no reason to remember anyone, living or dead, who took part in what he considered to be senseless butchery. He died ten years ago, broken, bitter and guiltridden, at the age of 98.

ALOSTSOUL
But (and here is were it get controversial) war has actually made human/technological progression speed up by a considerable margin.

Only because people are driven greed. With greed comes take and with take comes resistance.

We could just as easily advance through technological betterment as we do through technological destruction. Meaning if we invested in positive as much as we invested in negative we would probably be even more advanced then we are now beacuse we would all see the good and chose to do it together instead of against.

reply to post by ALOSTSOUL


I've always been intrigued by the relationship of the poppy to remembrance of the fallen. It's almost hard to believe that the connection is as simple as poppies happening to grow on some battlefield graves first. Afterall, poppies provide the morphine that masks the final consequence of war, and whole wars have been fought over opium poppies. As a matter of fact, somewhere in the world today, a poppy is being placed on the grave of a man who would still be alive if he hadn't been ordered to guard an Afghan poppy field.

reply to post by Rosinitiate


Perhaps your right but your talking in if's. Ifs is good to no one, we have to be realistic.

ALS

ALOSTSOUL
reply to post by Ismail

 

But (and here is were it get controversial) war has actually made human/technological progression speed up by a considerable margin.

A logical fallacy. War is the only context where, to avoid destruction, states and buisinesses allow for the existence of a collaborative economy, which *does* speed up technological progession. War, I reapeat, is the context. We could do this all time, by the way, but it would deprive the fat-cats and politicians of their status and riches. That's why it happens during war. The world would be a different place if the Manhattan Project had focused on erradicating disease and poverty.

ALOSTSOUL

 

Somewhat ironically war has actually made our world a more comfortable safer place to live.

Well exept for the landmines, radiation sickness, and the possibilty of wiping our species off the face of the earth in a glorious apocalypse of nuclear mushrooms.

ALOSTSOUL

 

Everyone always bangs on about how they died for our country, a "rich man", a government or a religion. When the truth is that soldiers and civilians of all nations across all wars died for Humanity. They died so that one day in the distant future we can and will live in a world (perhaps a universe) with no wars and that deserves the respect of not just me or you but every Human who lives and will ever live.

No. They THOUGHT that they were dying for "humanity" (most of them actually thought that they were dying for a wage, or an ideology, or because they didn't think that they had a choice, but whatever). Killing and dying "for humanity", is probably the most stupid idea in the world. Any man who does not understand that by killing other human beings, they are not "fighting for humanity", is, to put it bluntly, a moron.

War does not bring peace, and will never bring peace. Wars only sow the seeds for future wars. I respectfully choose not to honor or respect the brainwashed cretins who thought that they were saving mankind by blowing other people up, the same way I do not honor or respect people who jump/push others off cliffs on the whim that they are helping humanity learn to fly.

To me, wearing the poppy today/tomorrow honours those who fought, and also those who fell for our freedoms, 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, including my grandparents.

I do not wear it for wars fought since then, although I do respect the memories of those who have died (including a personal friend) for the greed of our leaders who have trampled on the freedoms our grandparents fought for.

It does not represent war, bloodshed or peace, it represents them and what they gave for us.

reply to post by Ismail


Well you certainly do have a way with words, your blatant disrespect make me ashamed that I've even bothered to converse with you.

So long and good luck.
ALS

If the poppy is such an important symbol, why do so many people not wear it ?

We were shopping in Edinburgh today. A clear majority of shoppers weren't wearing a poppy. The silence at 11am in Mark & Spencers was observed by everyone but you could see some regarded it as a nuisance. One woman actually walked in during the silence, uttered "Oh FFS" under her breath and walked back out again.

Glasgow Celtic FC and their supporters refuse point blank to wear them, as do many Hibernian FC supporters in the capital. The poppy is seen by them as a sectarian symbol. Sectarianism is big in Central Scotland.

reply to post by ALOSTSOUL


Blatant disrespect can only exist towards something that is deserving of respect.

The idea that meaningless deaths in the name of financial profit and political agendas is an honorable tradition of the human race is not deserving of respect.

The idea that killing other humans is bettering humanity is so laughably preposterous that I'm ashamed to be part of a species that is gullible enough to even consider the notion.

Respect what deserves to be, not what you were taught to.

Ismail
reply to post by ALOSTSOUL

 

Blatant disrespect can only exist towards something that is deserving of respect.

The idea that meaningless deaths in the name of financial profit and political agendas is an honorable tradition of the human race is not deserving of respect.

The idea that killing other humans is bettering humanity is so laughably preposterous that I'm ashamed to be part of a species that is gullible enough to even consider the notion.

Respect what deserves to be, not what you were taught to.

...but in the meantime, buy a stupid poppy, the money of which will go to 'respecting' humans...instead of an ideal (which is aplaudable) but helps no-one.
Brass-headed, spit-and-polish medal heads did not sit around a board table at the pentagram, with a gold-plated exocet as a Cuban sparker, and decide that a good way to raise money for a new missile is selling poppies...the money goes to people who have been largely ignored of thier service by the same government you rally against for sending them to war (or whatever)...men, women, children...people, not an idiotic idea...if you don't like that, don't buy one...

Å99

reply to post by LeBombDiggity

If the poppy is such an important symbol, why do so many people not wear it ?

I dare say it's due to a variety of reasons.
Firstly because it's a matter of choice.
Secondly I'd say it varies from region to region - why I don't really know, just a personal observation.
Then there's the attempt to demonise 'poppy' wearing as being somehow representative of supporting the recent military involvement in the Middle East.
And of course there's the general apathy that seems increasingly apparent throughout society as a whole.
I'm sure there's many other contributory reasons - what I will say is that I've been out and about most of the weekend and I've got to say I was struck by the amount of people who were wearing poppies.

......One woman actually walked in during the silence, uttered "Oh FFS" under her breath and walked back out again.

The modern obsession with not 'wasting' time and everything being an inconvenience - it's my experience that there's stupid and ignorant people everywhere regardless of race, colour, creed or nationality.

Glasgow Celtic FC and their supporters refuse point blank to wear them, as do many Hibernian FC supporters in the capital.

I'd correct that slightly - some Celtic supporters refuse point blank to wear them, some wear them with pride, some are pretty much apathetic about it all. Just a personal opinion based on quite a few visits to Parkhead and countless drinking sessions with Celtic supporters.
Don't really know about The Hibees but I suspect the same may also be true.

The poppy is seen by them as a sectarian symbol. Sectarianism is big in Central Scotland.

I've never understood how the poppy has become a sectarian symbol in parts of Scotland - people from both sides of the divide have always served in the UK Armed Forces.
Sectarianism is Scotland's single biggest curse and I honestly think that many people outside of Scotland don't fully realise the intensity and extent of it.

But I guess that's the subject of another thread entirely.

reply to post by akushla99


Countless other organisations give money to the needy people in question, others even give it to people who are *actually* dying of hunger, largely *because* of westerners love for niggling aggressivity, money-addicted corporations, and war-mongering states.

None of these organisations require of me to become a human billboard promoting "respect" for the *cough* "honourable sacrifice" *cough* of those who trudged off without question to kill other human beings for no good reason in 1914, and got themselves shot in the process.

reply to post by Freeborn


This isn't a small minority of Celtic fans. Their fan sites are full of anti-poppy sentiment tonight.
Your Deeds Would Shame All The Devils In Hell
Ireland Iraq Afghanistan
No Bloodstained Poppy
On Our Hoops

(the hoops being the nickname of Glasgow Celtic FC, due to the green & white hoops on their shirts).

Ismail
reply to post by akushla99

 

Countless other organisations give money to the needy people in question, others even give it to people who are *actually* dying of hunger, largely *because* of westerners love for niggling aggressivity, money-addicted corporations, and war-mongering states.

None of these organisations require of me to become a human billboard promoting "respect" for the *cough* "honourable sacrifice" *cough* of those who trudged off without question to kill other human beings for no good reason in 1914, and got themselves shot in the process.

No-ones forcing you to wear a fricken sandwich board though, are they...do it silently, content in the knowledge that your $2.00 is going to a worthy cause...the rest is philosophising while you sit in air-conditioned comfort with unchallenged benefits...thier wives, children, grandchildren etc, are not discussing the triangulated philsophical arguments of the pros and cons of war...no-one 'likes' war, otherwise there'd be a bumbook page for it...buy a stupid poppy, then whack it in your pocket...

Å99

reply to post by LeBombDiggity


The Scots crack me up. Always having ago our way yet their more than happy with the 15 billion in pensions and benefits they get from us. I really hope they go independent.

ALS

reply to post by ALOSTSOUL


Easy there fella. That group do not speak for all Scots and the rest of us would appreciate not being tarred with the same brush.

ALOSTSOUL
reply to post by LeBombDiggity

 

The Scots crack me up. Always having ago our way yet their more than happy with the 15 billion in pensions and benefits they get from us. I really hope they go independent.

ALS

Oh no. Don't assume all Scots hate the poppy.
Because at the other end of Glasgow, at Ibrox Stadium (home of the predominately protestant/British Glasgow Rangers FC), this is how they celebrate Armed Forces Day ... the servicemen are welcomed and well looked after. In fact this year some servicemen became so enamoured by their welcome that they started singing Loyalist sectarian songs, such as "Hello, Hello We are the Billy Boys" and "The Sash My Father Wore" (the MoD won't take any action against them, obviously)

Rangers FC manager McCoist with service chiefs.


Serving troops with Red Hand of Ulster flags


This is how divided Scotland is. It's divided along sectarian lines, with Catholics and Protestants living in different areas, supporting different football teams, working in different workplaces etc etc etc

And it's against this background that the independence referendum is being held next year.

akushla99
the rest is philosophising while you sit in air-conditioned comfort with unchallenged benefits...

Sounds nice, but that's not me... I'm against air-conditioning.
All for unchellenged benefits, though I haven't seen any in a while...

akushla99

thier wives, children, grandchildren etc, are not discussing the triangulated philsophical arguments of the pros and cons of war...

No, their not. But if they were, I can guarantee that there would be a lot less of them today fighting the same nonsensical wars that their fathers and grandfathers fought.

akushla99
no-one 'likes' war, otherwise there'd be a bumbook page for it...

So how come we are still fighting them then ?

reply to post by justwokeup


I didn't say all Scots but its certainly a majority that have a distane for England. I'm half Scottish myself my Dad and Nan are from Paisley. They are always banging on about "England done this", "England done that". It drives me round the bend. The worst is that they always support the opposite team to England!

Back on topic; they do where poppies though. My Nan is fiercely proud of the armed force, perhaps because half my family have been soldiers.

ALS