The Abrahamic Confinement Of Atheism

reply to post by ignorant_ape

the evidence for " karmic causation " is

That's easy... Try it out for yourself...

Proof of Karma is easy to prove... Do bad things, bad things will happen to you

Do good things, and good things will happen...

its simple and provable if you choose to do so

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I would hardly call China and South Korea as third-world countries, I think they have developed quite well. While there may be parts of China that may seem third-world, overall, it is not. First world means developed and third-world means still developing.

And China and Korea is where Taoism first developed. What does media indoctrination have to do with Taoism? I don't think the OP wants this to be an Islamic forum.

As this is neither your thread nor mine, let's just stick to whether or not atheists target Abrahamic faiths only or if they are willing to address Taoism as well.

reply to post by NthOther


Anyone here can tell you I have a distinct interest in dharma and taoism. Thing is, you gotta ask.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NthOther

 

Anyone here can tell you I have a distinct interest in dharma and taoism. Thing is, you gotta ask.

Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you?

Oh, I think you have proven two faith systems in that one.

reply to post by NthOther

feel left out. Ignored and neglected. I can’t find an atheist to debate the finer points of Taoism with me. Or any Dharmic religion for that matter. None of them seem to know anything about it. All they want to talk about is Christianity. And many of them do know a lot about Christianity, albeit academically and not experientially. I’ll give them that.

Well, there are a few reasons for this. First, I know little about Taoism. Other than it emphasizes living in harmony with the source. Secondly, in America, Christianity is the dominant religion. So that is what atheists here are confronted with. Knowing a little something about it helps. Some atheists used to be Christians. That gives them the academics, and the experience.

But if they’re going to make sweeping and convicted claims about how material (physically observable, definable, etc.) reality is the only reality, and therefore that all religion and spirituality is hogwash, shouldn't they… well, shouldn't they know what they’re talking about? It seems to me that invalidating all religious/spiritual belief systems (or any associated concept) based on the criticism of almost exclusively Abrahamic religions is about as unscientific as you can get. Not to mention dripping with ignorance.

You're talking about a small group of atheists. That's like saying all Christians are Catholic. All atheists don't believe the same things. Nor do we all dismiss all religion/spiritual belief based on our criticism of Christianity. What we do have in common is a lack of belief in a deity.

reply to post by NthOther


I would love to discuss the finer points of the Tao. It's one of my favorite scriptures.

Akragon
reply to post by ignorant_ape

 

the evidence for " karmic causation " is

That's easy... Try it out for yourself...

Proof of Karma is easy to prove... Do bad things, bad things will happen to you

Do good things, and good things will happen...

its simple and provable if you choose to do so

And buzzworthy videos trending on youtube of some guy jumping off a roof into a pickup truck full of water, only for the water to spill out and the guy breaks his legs.

Yes, you do bad things, bad things come back to you.

Sometimes though bad things happen to good people, and the opposite. But the good people find a way through the bad things.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Bad things happen to good people because of an accumulation of Karmic debt... Sometimes even from unresolved Karma from past lives...

Everything works itself out... and returns to neutral

Love Vs Hate... Yin & Yang

So to speak

Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Bad things happen to good people because of an accumulation of Karmic debt... Sometimes even from unresolved Karma from past lives...

Everything works itself out... and returns to neutral

Love Vs Hate... Yin & Yang

So to speak

And you have now introduced the Christian doctrine, as we believe Jesus paid that debt for us. If some Christians believe Jesus paid it for ALL sin, then they would have to concede if it were for all, then they could incorporate reincarnation. I think you found a loophole for some Christians....

I believe in one life, one time around, and after this the judgment, but karma would still basically apply, in that karma is "we reap what we sow". So judgement and karma are basically brothers from other mothers.

VioletKarma
reply to post by NthOther

 

Hello
I am an atheist and I believe in the laws of Karma > (causation)

We DON'T believe in a god/gods/goddesses

what force then records the karma, mediates and then enforces its laws, and then carries out the punishments/rewards of the karma?

is that karma as in re-incarnation? or just the karma during ones life?... after seeing the ELites, and how they continually reap rewards with no cost.. I am unsure on karma

WarminIndy

Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Bad things happen to good people because of an accumulation of Karmic debt... Sometimes even from unresolved Karma from past lives...

Everything works itself out... and returns to neutral

Love Vs Hate... Yin & Yang

So to speak

And you have now introduced the Christian doctrine, as we believe Jesus paid that debt for us. If some Christians believe Jesus paid it for ALL sin, then they would have to concede if it were for all, then they could incorporate reincarnation. I think you found a loophole for some Christians....

I believe in one life, one time around, and after this the judgment, but karma would still basically apply, in that karma is "we reap what we sow". So judgement and karma are basically brothers from other mothers.

Nope... It has nothing to do with Christian doctrine... Love Vs hate is a tenant of all faiths...

And of course you, and All Christians are free to believe what they will... Jesus hinted on reincarnation, and Job stated it blatantly... it exists. Only Chrstians say it doesn't and by doing so they make the bible false because as its said... With God anything is possible.

And the idea that "Jesus paid the debt of all sin" has a fatal flaw, that being Good people die for no reason all the time... Good people are tortured and punished for nothing all the time. Horrible things happen to good people all the time... Which would make that theory Null and Void

reply to post by HanzHenry

what force then records the karma, mediates and then enforces its laws, and then carries out the punishments/rewards of the karma?

is that karma as in re-incarnation? or just the karma during ones life?... after seeing the ELites, and how they continually reap rewards with no cost.. I am unsure on karma

This is the big misconception of karma. That it is a punishment/reward system. It is not. That idea comes from an oversimplification. Karma is cause and effect at it's base, but even that is an inadequate definition. Try the link for a better understanding. It's one of the better short pieces I've read on it.
Karma

Akragon
Bad things happen to good people because of an accumulation of Karmic debt... Sometimes even from unresolved Karma from past lives...

May I add that sometimes bad things happen to good people because of, what I call, Karmic splatter? Others create bad karma and because we are all connected, the collective ends up paying the karmic debt. Sometimes. At least, that's what it looks like to me. (and I'm not sold on the whole Karma thing... but that's what I kind of see going on ... )

WarminIndy
most atheists do come from Christianized backgrounds.

Because most so-called 'Christian countries' have freedom of religious expression and freedom of information. People are allowed to think for themselves and educate themselves. People aren't slaughtered for thinking or worshipping differently than others. That's not the case in Middle Eastern and Persian countries. Lack of ability to get all the facts on religious subject matter, as well as fear of loss of job, loss of rights, loss of legal status, loss of LIFE keep atheists (and others) from saying what they really think.

reply to post by FlyersFan

May I add that sometimes bad things happen to good people because of, what I call, Karmic splatter? Others create bad karma and because we are all connected, the collective ends up paying the karmic debt. Sometimes. At least, that's what it looks like to me. (and I'm not sold on the whole Karma thing... but that's what I kind of see going on ... )

Think of it more like a ripple in a pond... IF the water is still and flat as glass, and someone tosses a rock into the midst of the water, it makes waves which ripple across the pond.

One can't pay anothers Karmic debt in my opinion, but certain things or events can have a ripple effect on others around the original event...

Example: One man shoots another man... Everyone around sees the event and as the opportunity to react to it... Those actions either add positive or negative Karma depending on ones reaction... One person helps the victim, that's a positive "boost"... another person just laughs and walks away... That's negative boost...

Action or lack there of results in Karma, be it positive or negative

reply to post by NthOther

I feel left out. Ignored and neglected. I can’t find an atheist to debate the finer points of Taoism with me. Or any Dharmic religion for that matter.

I think if you were to look at China you would see a lot of suppression of religion, especially Buddhism. You wouldn't feel ignored and neglected if you lived in Tibet.

The Panchen Lama has not been seen since he was abducted by Chinese forces in 1995, aged six

The publication said conditions for Tibetan Buddhists are “worse now than at any time over the past decade” and this fostered “deep resentments”.

Tibet’s resistance

The report makes mention of the Tibetan Buddhist monks and nuns who have set themselves on fire calling for the return of the Dalai Lama and the release of the Panchen Lama.

Around 120 Tibetans have set themselves on fire as part of a wave of resistance against Chinese occupation. More than 50 were monks and nuns.
www.freetibet.org...

Akragon

WarminIndy

Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Bad things happen to good people because of an accumulation of Karmic debt... Sometimes even from unresolved Karma from past lives...

Everything works itself out... and returns to neutral

Love Vs Hate... Yin & Yang

So to speak

And you have now introduced the Christian doctrine, as we believe Jesus paid that debt for us. If some Christians believe Jesus paid it for ALL sin, then they would have to concede if it were for all, then they could incorporate reincarnation. I think you found a loophole for some Christians....

I believe in one life, one time around, and after this the judgment, but karma would still basically apply, in that karma is "we reap what we sow". So judgement and karma are basically brothers from other mothers.

Nope... It has nothing to do with Christian doctrine... Love Vs hate is a tenant of all faiths...

And of course you, and All Christians are free to believe what they will... Jesus hinted on reincarnation, and Job stated it blatantly... it exists. Only Chrstians say it doesn't and by doing so they make the bible false because as its said... With God anything is possible.

And the idea that "Jesus paid the debt of all sin" has a fatal flaw, that being Good people die for no reason all the time... Good people are tortured and punished for nothing all the time. Horrible things happen to good people all the time... Which would make that theory Null and Void

I didn't apply love vs. hate in my answer, I dealt solely with karmic causation, or cause and effect then went to judgement and the end goal of reincarnation.

The laws of a purely natural world don't include love and hate, there is no room in a pure natural law that for that, even if cause and effect still apply to the natural world. Love and hate are merely extensions of the human intellect and through moral relativism, which have no basis in natural law.

You might say (I don't know if you do, just using an example) that you love Rocky Road ice cream but hate marshmallows. Did that arise from your moral relativism? Did a natural law dictate that you should love what includes the marshmallows but you accept the marshmallows in the Rocky Road because you love the totality or the echad of Rocky Road?


Is there a natural compunction to dismiss marshmallows? Who has dictated and demanded that you should like Rocky Road? You, yourself. So by your acceptance of the marshmallows as being worthy enough to be accepted within the Rocky Road, the echad, then you are negating your own value system, your own moral relativism, by accepting the totality of something, even if it includes the very thing you hate.


You have now forgiven the marshmallow, because it is now worthy to be morally enjoined to you. But when you pass the bag of marshmallows on the store shelf, and simply by saying "yuck, I hate marshmallows", you still choose to hate based on your moral relativism, that you had previously forgiven them.

How many people do you know who say "I don't like onions, but I don't mind onions on pizza"? Same concept, the onions are forgiven for being on pizza, so their redemption lies solely within the moral relativism, which now has dictated redemption of onions.

But what natural law even places onions on pizza, there is no such thing as natural evolution of pizza, but as they claim, onions are evolved. And the redemption of the marshmallows and onions therefore are not a product of evolution. Then there are some people who refuse to redeem the marshmallows and onions, they refuse Rocky Road and pizza, often times picking the onions out or not ordering it with the pizza. So they have then dictated through their own moral relativism, that marshmallows and onions are not worthy of redemption at all, and continue passing Rocky Road and pizza with onions.

So week after week, pizza gets ordered, albeit a new pizza, to be consumed once again for this present experience. Natural law dictates that you get hungry, it does not dictate how you feed yourself (unless warning you that something will kill you). And natural law does not dictate whether you eat Rocky Road with a plastic or metal spoon, which whatever you choose to use has now been sanctified for that purpose by you.

The karmic laws just say if you eat too much of either, you get Diabetes and could die. But in morally choosing to redeems or not redeem comes from you, but you had no power over the evolution of the onions.


Does that make sense?

reply to post by WarminIndy


I believe you're confusing Love and Hate Vs personal likes and dislikes...

IF love is only a part of our intellect... and humans in general are relatively.....

How should I put this.... STUPID?

How can God be love as the bible states?

Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I believe you're confusing Love and Hate Vs personal likes and dislikes...

IF love is only a part of our intellect... and humans in general are relatively.....

How should I put this.... STUPID?

How can God be love as the bible states?

No, I am not confusing anything, rather, I think you are limiting your views.

Because we embrace those things we personally like and promote it, and build our lives and philosophies around that, it does become what we love or hate.

Why do people buy into Harley Davidson merchandise? Is it because Harley Davidson is just a motorcycle, or does it carry symbolic meaning and lifestyle to the one who simply likes motorcycles, or everything attached to it?

Is a rock star simply just a vocalist, or do people embrace the rock star in his entirety above personal likes?

reply to post by WarminIndy

Because we embrace those things we personally like and promote it, and build our lives and philosophies around that, it does become what we love or hate.

Would that not be attachment to material possessions... perhaps even Satanism in some small way considering "Satan" is a representation of greed, and lust of all things physical, and not some red guy with a pitch fork, or a beautiful angel that decided to rebel against God and take a nose dive to earth?

Why do people buy into Harley Davidson merchandise? Is it because Harley Davidson is just a motorcycle, or does it carry symbolic meaning and lifestyle to the one who simply likes motorcycles, or everything attached to it?

Please refer to the above statement... I personally buy a car for transportation... Not for what it represents to others... I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of me... but again that's just me.

Is a rock star simply just a vocalist, or do people embrace the rock star in his entirety above personal likes?

Probably just a vocalist... Have you heard of many "rock stars" that might be considered "morally upstanding people"?

I think said person's music might be good, even great, and I might say "oh man I love this guy"... but that is hardly an expression of "love"...

Love is action... not just words... one can say "I love that person"... but without an action to express that love those are just words...

reply to post by WarminIndy


Not really. The phrase "if you don't ask, the answer will always be no" belongs to no belief system.