It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

If you don't believe in Aliens you are CRAZY!

page: 4
13
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 07:40 PM
link   

giugliot

What a cunning train of thought, he he, kudos. Well, you are absolutely correct. Except for a tiny omission. You declare: "Thus far, WE've none." Correct. But what about those hundreds of alien spieces that have been observing us, detecting us and interacting with us - THEY have. Oops.


Anyone could just as readily and easily subscribe to the unsubstantiated belief that Angels, or any other similar mythological invisible creatures are constantly watching over us, protecting us, tempting us toward 'evil', playing the trickster with our odd socks in the laundry, etc.

While anyone is more than welcome to suspend the faculty of reason in subscribing to such, and many do, there's no validity to such claims.

Such claims are easily defeated by the "Show Me" paradigm. Show me these aliens. Let's have tea at 2pm where I can meet them, give interview and video the interaction.
The 100% result of that has always been no aliens at tea.

I thus stand on the earlier stance that invisible aliens that can't be interacted with or even observed are worthless.

In the same vein, we know that multi-Billionaires exist. Unlike aliens, It can even be proven. Like aliens, however, any Billionaire is worthless to you unless you have interactions with her, or him.





posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 07:56 PM
link   

AliceBleachWhite

giugliot

What a cunning train of thought, he he, kudos. Well, you are absolutely correct. Except for a tiny omission. You declare: "Thus far, WE've none." Correct. But what about those hundreds of alien spieces that have been observing us, detecting us and interacting with us - THEY have. Oops.


Anyone could just as readily and easily subscribe to the unsubstantiated belief that Angels, or any other similar mythological invisible creatures are constantly watching over us, protecting us, tempting us toward 'evil', playing the trickster with our odd socks in the laundry, etc.

While anyone is more than welcome to suspend the faculty of reason in subscribing to such, and many do, there's no validity to such claims.

Such claims are easily defeated by the "Show Me" paradigm. Show me these aliens. Let's have tea at 2pm where I can meet them, give interview and video the interaction.
The 100% result of that has always been no aliens at tea.

I thus stand on the earlier stance that invisible aliens that can't be interacted with or even observed are worthless.

In the same vein, we know that multi-Billionaires exist. Unlike aliens, It can even be proven. Like aliens, however, any Billionaire is worthless to you unless you have interactions with her, or him.





You are right in a sense, and very wrong in another.

It is true that having a living alien to talk to is irrelevant.
But, on the other hand, acknowledging the phenomenon for what it is, and attempting to figure it out is vitally important.

Its all good though. The Gov has been working on it for years. You internet skeptics are far behind the curve of actual science being conducted by various alphabet agencies for the last 60 years or so.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:06 PM
link   
reply to post by JadeStar
 


For me anyone that can look up at night and see the vastness of space and the shear number of stars and think we are the only life out there is idiotically vain.

Nasa and other scientists now say there are 8.8 billion probable earthlike planets out there. Come on, it is mathematically impossible for there not to be other life out there.

Seriously if you think we are alone you really are a nut or a paid disinformation guy. Nasa is basically saying there is life out there. Basically, they are setting the stage for contact.

There is just no sane way to argue this. I seriously feel sorry for you if you are so vain and closed minded to not accept even the possibility of other life out there. Not to mention the possibility of other Universes.

The Bot



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:34 PM
link   

AliceBleachWhite

giugliot

What a cunning train of thought, he he, kudos. Well, you are absolutely correct. Except for a tiny omission. You declare: "Thus far, WE've none." Correct. But what about those hundreds of alien spieces that have been observing us, detecting us and interacting with us - THEY have. Oops.


Anyone could just as readily and easily subscribe to the unsubstantiated belief that Angels, or any other similar mythological invisible creatures are constantly watching over us, protecting us, tempting us toward 'evil', playing the trickster with our odd socks in the laundry, etc.

While anyone is more than welcome to suspend the faculty of reason in subscribing to such, and many do, there's no validity to such claims.

Such claims are easily defeated by the "Show Me" paradigm. Show me these aliens. Let's have tea at 2pm where I can meet them, give interview and video the interaction.
The 100% result of that has always been no aliens at tea.

I thus stand on the earlier stance that invisible aliens that can't be interacted with or even observed are worthless.

In the same vein, we know that multi-Billionaires exist. Unlike aliens, It can even be proven. Like aliens, however, any Billionaire is worthless to you unless you have interactions with her, or him.





OK now we're really mixing subjects. I would say be careful what you wish for. As a young man I was on a mission trip in Mexico. We built school etc. While there I walked in on a real exorcism accidentally. I was immediately frozen and could not move. What I witnessed could have been a scene in a movie. This took place before the movie by the way.

I witnessed a demon and evil with my own eyes. So don't try and make flippant jokes about meeting one for coffee lightly. I would be very careful but hey you want that in your life knock yourself out.

Be careful what you wish for.

The Bot



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 08:47 PM
link   

dlbott
reply to post by JadeStar
 


For me anyone that can look up at night and see the vastness of space and the shear number of stars and think we are the only life out there is idiotically vain.

Nasa and other scientists now say there are 8.8 billion probable earthlike planets out there. Come on, it is mathematically impossible for there not to be other life out there.

Seriously if you think we are alone you really are a nut or a paid disinformation guy. Nasa is basically saying there is life out there. Basically, they are setting the stage for contact.

There is just no sane way to argue this. I seriously feel sorry for you if you are so vain and closed minded to not accept even the possibility of other life out there. Not to mention the possibility of other Universes.

The Bot


Mathematically Impossible?

No.
There's over 8 Billion People on the planet.
Is it mathematically impossible that one of them could be a centaur, a mermaid, a minotaur, or something similar?
No? Yes? What do you think?

This is the logical fallacy of Appealing to Probability, also Reductio ad Absurdum.

You may also look at the 8.7 BILLION species on Earth of which only ONE is technologically advanced, as well as the evidence that this 8.7 Billion species is representative of only 0.1% of all the species that have ever lived on Earth where 99.9% that have ever existed are now extinct, and became extinct before BEFORE mankind ever existed.

While I personally support and maintain that there IS a probability for life ... somewhere in the ambiguously vast greatness of the Universe, even supporting and maintaining probability for technology using advanced space faring alien races, I also recognize that probability is JUST probability and advances no absolutes.

Further, even if there are/were/will be Advanced Technology Using Space Faring Aliens in the great grand ambiguously vast reaches of Space and Time within the Universe, in factoring both Space and Time, it's as near to impossible of interactions ever occurring especially with us stuck on a single tiny mote of a planet with not even any real presence of note in our own solar system much less others and definitely not our one singular Galaxy out of hundreds of Billions.

Aliens we can't see, Aliens we can't interact with, Aliens we can only imagine only hold value as entertainment fodder for Hollywood movies and Science Fiction Literature.

Bring us an alien; something we can touch, poke at, or even talk to, and we'll be more than happy to reasses.




edit on 11/10/2013 by AliceBleachWhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:38 PM
link   

tanka418


I mean really! 7.14285 E-10. That's like almost impossible. The Hill case alone alters that probability very significantly. I haven't done the math again, but, my guess is it has improved by many orders of magnitude.




This is my point...close to impossible.

The problem with the map is if, as you do, take it at face value then it seems like proof, but to me it seems that their story had years to evolve into aliens and then this map comes out under very suspicious means that a few years later a teacher correlates it to an actual set of stars.

What you are suggesting is no one knew or had the ability to make this map using our own knowledge prior to the teacher doing it. What I suggest is this map might have been made using the same practice that the teacher used.

In the end there is more faith then proof here.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:46 PM
link   

tanka418

I remember the late 1950's and early 60's. The common concept of "high tech" controls was dials, knobs, buttons, levers...just as you say.


Do you think a race a million years advance to us would use dials, knobs, buttons, levers... I few C-141 in the 80s with analog gauges, now I fly glass cockpit...it seems these aliens can't even make glass cockpits...hehe


My point is that a true experience would not be represented with technology of our time, as it seems it was.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:47 PM
link   

Xtrozero

tanka418


I mean really! 7.14285 E-10. That's like almost impossible. The Hill case alone alters that probability very significantly. I haven't done the math again, but, my guess is it has improved by many orders of magnitude.




This is my point...close to impossible.

The problem with the map is if, as you do, take it at face value then it seems like proof, but to me it seems that their story had years to evolve into aliens and then this map comes out under very suspicious means that a few years later a teacher correlates it to an actual set of stars.

What you are suggesting is no one knew or had the ability to make this map using our own knowledge prior to the teacher doing it. What I suggest is this map might have been made using the same practice that the teacher used.

In the end there is more faith then proof here.



There is also the possibility that they accessed the knowledge internally.
Like a... ???... shaman would.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:55 PM
link   

dlbott

OK now we're really mixing subjects. I would say be careful what you wish for. As a young man I was on a mission trip in Mexico. We built school etc. While there I walked in on a real exorcism accidentally. I was immediately frozen and could not move. What I witnessed could have been a scene in a movie. This took place before the movie by the way.

I witnessed a demon and evil with my own eyes. So don't try and make flippant jokes about meeting one for coffee lightly. I would be very careful but hey you want that in your life knock yourself out.

Be careful what you wish for.

The Bot


Me no scared.
Me no superstitious.

Show me the aliens.

No?
Any Aliens out there listening, or reading? Show yourselves unambiguously, and confirm your existence!
Hmmm. No response.
I dare you?
Please?
Hmmm. Still no response.

Me no scared.
Me no superstitious.

Show me the Aliens.





posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 09:58 PM
link   

JayinAR

Our thumbs helped us make the spears more than our intelligence.

Even crows use tools.

A couple of things here.

1. Yes thumbs have been extremely important in the advancement our minds. Without thumbs (or like ability) there is no advancement.
2. Communication is also extremely important in advancement.
3. The ability to think in the abstract is huge. We spend about 80% of our time there, everything around use started as an abstract thought (an item/concept created from nothing) We can't even make breakfast without abstractly creating it first.

Now we take all this and say there is life in the universe, but somehow we go from mold to advance aliens traveling the universe in suggesting life is throughout the universe. We can all agree life is out there but when we add discriminators that really narrows it down. We also know that the more advance life becomes the more fragile it becomes. During snowball earth 400 million years ago there was no advance life on earth, but life continued on.

Life is part of our universe but when I suggest that life needs to be 10 ton flying purple hippos with a yellow dot above all 6 eyes and they nit crochet, we start to see the possibilities start to dwindle.

Talking about advance alien life is basically the same thing as my example.


edit on 10-11-2013 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 10:10 PM
link   

JayinAR

There is also the possibility that they accessed the knowledge internally.
Like a... ???... shaman would.


I don't know what can Shamans do? We have nothing suggesting higher abilities of a mind, that is not to say there isn't anything, but we have nothing suggesting it.

I'm sure 1 million years from now, if we are still here, we will be extremely different. The ability to be anything we want to be. Technology will be nano level and we could live for a very long time, 1000s, 10,000s of years. Technology and organic will be blended into no difference between the two.

What I see with past alien abductions is it all based on the limitations of our minds for the time period. Aliens would not need us in anyway. They would be able to create anything one atom at a time. The whole idea of reproduction, food etc based on the environment will be total obsolete.

Since these abductions are limited to what we can imagine then that suggests we did imagine it. We added human like needs and desires to these aliens too...hmmm



edit on 10-11-2013 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 10:20 PM
link   

AliceBleachWhite

dlbott

OK now we're really mixing subjects. I would say be careful what you wish for. As a young man I was on a mission trip in Mexico. We built school etc. While there I walked in on a real exorcism accidentally. I was immediately frozen and could not move. What I witnessed could have been a scene in a movie. This took place before the movie by the way.

I witnessed a demon and evil with my own eyes. So don't try and make flippant jokes about meeting one for coffee lightly. I would be very careful but hey you want that in your life knock yourself out.

Be careful what you wish for.

The Bot


Me no scared.
Me no superstitious.

Show me the aliens.

No?
Any Aliens out there listening, or reading? Show yourselves unambiguously, and confirm your existence!
Hmmm. No response.
I dare you?
Please?
Hmmm. Still no response.

Me no scared.
Me no superstitious.

Show me the Aliens.






I'm not talking aliens we actually taking angels and demons. Good and bad. If you want to play with evil be my guest. I don't want to be near you when you do. I would be careful inviting a demon into you life. Very scary your nuts.

The Bot



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 10:30 PM
link   

AliceBleachWhite

dlbott
reply to post by JadeStar
 


For me anyone that can look up at night and see the vastness of space and the shear number of stars and think we are the only life out there is idiotically vain.

Nasa and other scientists now say there are 8.8 billion probable earthlike planets out there. Come on, it is mathematically impossible for there not to be other life out there.

Seriously if you think we are alone you really are a nut or a paid disinformation guy. Nasa is basically saying there is life out there. Basically, they are setting the stage for contact.

There is just no sane way to argue this. I seriously feel sorry for you if you are so vain and closed minded to not accept even the possibility of other life out there. Not to mention the possibility of other Universes.

The Bot


Mathematically Impossible?

No.
There's over 8 Billion People on the planet.
Is it mathematically impossible that one of them could be a centaur, a mermaid, a minotaur, or something similar?
No? Yes? What do you think?

This is the logical fallacy of Appealing to Probability, also Reductio ad Absurdum.

You may also look at the 8.7 BILLION species on Earth of which only ONE is technologically advanced, as well as the evidence that this 8.7 Billion species is representative of only 0.1% of all the species that have ever lived on Earth where 99.9% that have ever existed are now extinct, and became extinct before BEFORE mankind ever existed.

While I personally support and maintain that there IS a probability for life ... somewhere in the ambiguously vast greatness of the Universe, even supporting and maintaining probability for technology using advanced space faring alien races, I also recognize that probability is JUST probability and advances no absolutes.

Further, even if there are/were/will be Advanced Technology Using Space Faring Aliens in the great grand ambiguously vast reaches of Space and Time within the Universe, in factoring both Space and Time, it's as near to impossible of interactions ever occurring especially with us stuck on a single tiny mote of a planet with not even any real presence of note in our own solar system much less others and definitely not our one singular Galaxy out of hundreds of Billions.

Aliens we can't see, Aliens we can't interact with, Aliens we can only imagine only hold value as entertainment fodder for Hollywood movies and Science Fiction Literature.

Bring us an alien; something we can touch, poke at, or even talk to, and we'll be more than happy to reasses.




edit on 11/10/2013 by AliceBleachWhite because: (no reason given)


It is impossible there are over 8.8 billion other earth's and not have life. Find another thread, forget it, argue something else you can't win here, it is statistically impossible given eight billion plus chances that there is life out there.

The Bot



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 11:05 PM
link   

Xtrozero

tanka418


I mean really! 7.14285 E-10. That's like almost impossible. The Hill case alone alters that probability very significantly. I haven't done the math again, but, my guess is it has improved by many orders of magnitude.




This is my point...close to impossible.

The problem with the map is if, as you do, take it at face value then it seems like proof, but to me it seems that their story had years to evolve into aliens and then this map comes out under very suspicious means that a few years later a teacher correlates it to an actual set of stars.

What you are suggesting is no one knew or had the ability to make this map using our own knowledge prior to the teacher doing it. What I suggest is this map might have been made using the same practice that the teacher used.

In the end there is more faith then proof here.



Yes, I am suggesting that Betty Hill had no knowledge that Zeta Reticuli was a binary star.

The map was drawn in the later 60's, before it was known that Zeta Reticuli was a binary star. And, no, no faith. What is known about the map is supported by real world facts. All of the stars in on the map routes are stars that One should expect to find life, even complex sentient life calling them home.

Most of the stars are older than Sol, so the probability of life more advanced than Earth is also quite high.

This map is the real world, and it reflects the stars accurately from a viewpoint 31 light years past Zeta Reticuli.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 11:24 PM
link   

Xtrozero
Do you think a race a million years advance to us would use dials, knobs, buttons, levers... I few C-141 in the 80s with analog gauges, now I fly glass cockpit...it seems these aliens can't even make glass cockpits...hehe


Why would they want glass cockpits? Why would they need cockpits?

For that matter why would they be "a million years advance to us"? It would seem more probable that they are around the same "age" as Terrestrial Humans, that they are about as evolved as Terrestrial Humans.

Oh yeah, I know; they have machines that can travel the stars. Guess what! So does Earth. Right now, the science and most of the technologies exist to build starships. Perhaps not the fastest, but starships none the less. By the way, technology...is nothing more than "engineered" science.

And, yes, I think ET would use control systems very much like is used by Earth today in it's highest tech stuff. Prolly a bit more advanced than your airplane...but, there is no reason to change from the simple intuitiveness of a mechanically simple control. Even IF the control is "rendered" as differentiated from physical.

The point here is that the virtual controls may well appear the same as physical controls to an abductee, at the time.



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 11:36 PM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Abductions are most likely, if they are real at all, a program to create an inoculation to our biosphere in preparation for an "invasion" or contact.

Other than that, and in my personal experience in the matter, they are an astral type of one-to-one experience, but with the ability to somehow also affect our real world surroundings through electromagnetic systems (my car).

This is why I mentioned shamans. It appears that the truth of this subject lies in our heads, but in a Jungian sense, is somehow able to manifest into real world things that can be measured.
(On radar and visually at Ohare International, as a single example out of thousands if not tens of thousands examples)

This is the stuff that the real guys in scientific circles study.
A couple folks here would be well served to catch up and stop trying to feed people bullish. You guys know there is a very real phenomenon at work here.
Start acting like it.



posted on Nov, 11 2013 @ 03:35 AM
link   

JayinAR

JadeStar

JayinAR
The funny thing is that just a few years ago the prevailing skeptical opinion was that life was likely to be very rare in the cosmos. As our detection capabilities increase, it becomes more and more apparent that they were flat wrong, as the "believers" have been saying all along.


The skeptics a few years ago never said life was likely to be rare in the cosmos. Most readily support things like SETI which would seem to indicate they think life and perhaps intelligence is common.

This is often misunderstood. Skeptics look at the math and figure there is plenty of life.....out there.

The prevailing opinion of most skeptics then and now is that there needs to be far more proof that such life is capable of covering the vast distances (at least to us) of interstellar space to come here FIRST before they even consider such life would go out of its way to pick up the local farmer to give a rectal examination as many "believers" feel is happening.

That's quite different from ruling out life or intelligence in the universe.

From the perspective of a skeptic, aliens who can not be readily seen, interacted with or detected repeatedly through technology are as good as non-existant.

Hope that clears that up.


edit on 10-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)


Doesn't clear it up at all.
This is what we would call revisionist history.

SETI was formed on the chance it would discover something. With what we now know, SETI is a joke. We will never discover radio signals from a distant planet. Inverse square and all that.


Really. So tell me what is the EIRP of an alien transmitter from a civilization perhaps billions of years more advanced than us?



The prevailing opinion was that Earth was unique, and therefore life was likely to be unique as well.


Not true at all. Carl Sagan was a UFOs as ETs skeptic but felt there would likely be plenty of life out there. He even advocated searching the moon and other bodies in our solar system for signs of past visitation.

Plenty of UFOs as ETs skeptics have similar views. Particularly those who are familiar with the sky, ie astronomers, and astrobiologists, exoplanetologists, and other related fields. Would you like a list? It's a very long one.

My view is more along the lines of Michio Kaku. There could be some truth to the odd, very rare UFO case but we would need a LOT more evidence to support that.

The way forward is not to pretend this evidence exists but to actual go out and get the evidence if it exists.



And yet again, you science types still have a mountain of evidence to address. But you choose not to and instead ridicule the "farmer" as having a fancy for rectal probes.
Good job


Woah now wait a second. "You science types?"

Aren't we all science types? Or is this a belief system for you? Like a religion?

If you caught my thread on the Hill star map you'd know that I have an open mind regarding UFO evidence which presents SOMETHING TESTABLE. That case provided something that could be examined after the fact for years to come.

The fact is very little UFO 'evidence' amounts to anything other than anecdotes. Ones which do very little to support the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis.

There's very little in terms of useful 'data'. Lots of stories, lots of noise. More noise than actual data when looking at most of it.

This is why a lot of people in science stay well clear of the subject. Too much noise.

If there were people with useful information ie: pieces of alien technology, or simply knowledge unknown to us at the time of the event (ie: Hill map) which can be verified then I am sure more would jump in to examine that evidence.

The closest to this are the people who have looked at landing trace and radar visual cases, but again, other than an analysis of the event there is a HUGE gulf between saying something anomalous happened which we can not explained to "OMG Itz Alienzzzz!!!!"

BTW the reference to the farmer and rectal probe thing was simply to point out that this is how the subject has been portrayed and how many academic types who consider themselves skeptics see it.

As someone in science (well at the undergrad level at least), and with an interest in this subject, I welcome whatever evidence you'd like me to look at. But it has to be good. As in something beyond an anecdote of "i saw some lights in the sky."

The burden of proof that its extraterrestrial related however is on you. I have no idea why you do not understand that. It's basic logic. Make an extraordinary claim, support it with extraordinary evidence.

Otherwise it's just another nice story for the next MUFON convention, but little else.

I need something I can sink my teeth into, something that can be the subject of a thoroughly testable hypothesis using things like you know, math.

Just so you know my position: I do think some strange things are going on regarding some very, very rare UFO cases but I do not think the majority of them have anything to do with Aliens.

Call me a skeptic. I see that as a GOOD thing to be in this field, and life in general.

Those who will fall for anything, stand upon nothing.

edit on 11-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2013 @ 04:10 AM
link   
It is indeed rational to believe in alien life and NON rational not to.

To give an example, if I have a beach on one side of the planet with X billions of grains of sand (and let's say we would live on one of those grains)...it's logical to assume that other grains of sand would be similar and non-rational to assume that the only grain of sand we know (OURS) is "unique" amongst all beaches and billions of billions of grains of sand? In fact it would be incredibly stupid to assume that our grain would be special, ESPECIALLY if our technology doesn't even allow to check out the NEXT grain beside us (the next star)....but we KNOW that beaches exist, not only the beach where we know that our grain is on...but we also know there are beaches on the other side of the planet etc.

This should also make it clear how extremely unlikely it is that some aliens from other stars, galaxies (the beach on the other side of the planet)...would FOR SOME REASON decide to visit us here, the grain of sand amongst billion others.

What reason should they have to come here? Here, on the most stupid of all planets with the most stupid species of all of them?



posted on Nov, 11 2013 @ 04:43 AM
link   

tanka418

Xtrozero
Do you think a race a million years advance to us would use dials, knobs, buttons, levers... I few C-141 in the 80s with analog gauges, now I fly glass cockpit...it seems these aliens can't even make glass cockpits...hehe


Why would they want glass cockpits? Why would they need cockpits?

For that matter why would they be "a million years advance to us"? It would seem more probable that they are around the same "age" as Terrestrial Humans, that they are about as evolved as Terrestrial Humans.


It is highly unlikely that nearby aliens would be anywhere near our age. They'd likely be vastly older or vastly younger.

You see, our planet, our solar system is 4.5 billion years old. The galaxy is around 12 billion years old. A majority of stars in our galaxy are 6 to 9 billion years old.

The odds that any two civilizations which met would be from planets around the same age is extremely unlikely.

The vast amount of alien life is likely to be in some cases much more advanced (like we might be in 500 million-2 billion years) or much more primitive (like Earth life 500 mllion to 2 billion years ago).

When talking about alien life you aren't just talking about deep SPACE. You're talking about deep TIME.
edit on 11-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2013 @ 05:37 AM
link   
reply to post by JadeStar
 


Speaking to the OP - and realizing what he is saying - WOW - I guess I'm crazy - I don't believe in aliens.

What is the gov't going to do about me?



new topics

top topics



 
13
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join