If you don't believe in Aliens you are CRAZY!

Ectoplasm8
You can't categorize life and intelligent life together and put it into your equation of life outside of our solar system. Intelligent life is an extremely rare occurrence, while basic life is everywhere.

So I take it that the individual cell, or a single cell organism is far less intelligent than a Human? You would actually have issues demonstrating that. Just because a form of life doesn't meet your standards of "life" and "intelligence" doesn't make it anything less. After all; "does it not live?"

Our galaxy is likely teeming with that basic life. Few however will have intelligent life. Look at the 4+ billion year history of Earth and the billions of life forms that have lived here. Only one has been intelligent. Only one has had a desire to pursue interests beyond it's own survival.

Really?!!! Only ONE intelligent species on the Earth? Please don't say that around my Wolves, they may bite. Humans are NOT the only intelligent species on the Earth. All of the complex lifeforms and some of the "no-so-complex" are plenty intelligent. My "puppies" for instance; would prove far better at survival than you if the conditions were even slightly more primitive. So much for your "advanced intelligence"

The issue is; "what is intelligence". Terrestrial Humans have not figured this out as yet. But some aspects are rather known; learning, reasoning. some like to put communication in there, others would point out abstract reasoning, and other more "complex" idea about intelligence. But these are only abstract idea about intelligence, what it truly IS remains unknown.

Again, my "puppies": Are capable, as in; I have observed, abstract reasoning; Wolves seem to have concept of time. Sense of Humor; not really sure I quite go along with the "lupine" practical joke. They also communicate via "speech"; yet, I've noticed what appears to be a some-what non-standardized spoken language among Wolves. There are other traits that I have noticed. Now then; you should note that I said I observed these things, I have not recorded this data, not do I intend to. What I have noticed in my "puppies" is for our consumption, not yours. But, that does not lessen the reality.

Humans are not the only intelligent species on Earth, not by a long shot.

But intelligent life should not be categorized as "ubiquitous".

Other than unsubstantiated claims and fantastical stories, I'd like to see this evidence that shows the 10+ space faring species. I'm sure the scientific community would as well.

I did not characterize intelligent life as ubiquitous, only "life".

Here is a somewhat outdated video that shows, in it's opening frames, a "drake like" equation that was intended to show these 10 species.



It didn't really work out so well...the estimate of 10.5 seems, mathematically and logically, to be rather low, perhaps it should be 2 or 3 times larger. And this is within only 50 light years.

That will be the first piece of evidence. Next I would submit the Betty Hill Star map; and of course the excellent work done in this thread.

But then this may be a waste of time; depends on how unreasonable you are with what you consider "evidence" and "proof". for instance, many Terrestrial Humans seem to think that "more", "greater" evidence is required to demonstrate the existence of ET than they would require to deprive a fellow of his life (rather uncivilized...don't you thing?)

What I have as evidence is mathematics, are you capable of accepting that? Can you accept a mathematical process that you rely upon for your day to day survival as evidence or even proof of something outside your basic survival requirements? I bet you can't / won't.

reply to post by JadeStar

Not to mention not all creatures on Earth are the expansive/social type. It could be that type of mindset is rare in the Galaxy.

Ever notice that the closer ya get to the top of the food chain, how "strange" this whole "social" this becomes?

The top predator on the Earth is perhaps one of the most social. Lesser predators it becomes varied. Canines, also very social, even cross species (dogs/wolves and humans), Cats, not so much, Same goes with many others; some greater, others lesser in their extent.

It should go without saying that this extends to all of existence.

The thing is; that with greater intelligence, the necessity of social cooperation and interaction becomes more apparent, and acted upon.

So, the apex predators that eventually become a space faring species / civilization are their world's most intelligent and social animal. This will appear to be invariable.

reply to post by JadeStar

The eye has evolved several independently different times through evolutionary history on Earth and there are many types of eyes. ie: your eyes are different from the compound eye of a fly as they are from birds, as they are from sharks and so on.

This where you are wrong, everything with eyes has evolved from a common ancestor that first developed eyes. I remember watching a whole documentary about it.

reply to post by Emerys


First off, I don't believe that life emerges simply because the statistics say it should. I think life is an expression of spiritual life; (biological) life emerges on planets only when spiritual beings evolve it. Secondly, I believe everything is alive. A galaxy can be a life form where every star in it is a 'cell'. The universe is alive. As for aliens being here. They are. I have seen them and I'm not on drugs or mentally deranged nor did I get stoned on swamp gas...

I want to believe and if I approach it statistically then the odds tell me that something should be out there.

Until their is irrefutable proof or something that is not someone interpreting a cave drawing from thousands of years ago then for me it just stays at wanting to believe.

opethPA
I want to believe and if I approach it statistically then the odds tell me that something should be out there.

Until their is irrefutable proof or something that is not someone interpreting a cave drawing from thousands of years ago then for me it just stays at wanting to believe.

And herein is the problem; "irrefutable proof"! What most Terrestrials want as "irrefutable proof" is wholly unreasonable. Usually is something greater than the evidence required to deprive a fellow Human of his life.

And, y'all like to call yourselves "civilized".

Do you all know that "proof" exists only in mathematics (and sometimes Physics)? In science there are no "proofs" only compelling evidence.

So, ya see, all that mathematical probability? Yep, you got it...the only "proof" you get. Though with a probability of virtually 1...ET is a virtual certainty.

Not only will life find a way, it must! We the living on earth live in a symbiosis state with earth. We are just as much a part of her as she is of us. Our planet is in a symbiosis state with the solar system. Everything in itself is simply a part of a whole.

Now if we take this one example and see it being duplicated 100 billion times over I think the results would be fairly obvious. As they say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

reply to post by Emerys

To me, that's a lot more comforting than thinking we are alone.

What exactly is "comforting" about it?

Take the - admittedly silly - analogy of suddenly discovering a new super power (I don't know, living in the Antarctic underground maybe). One that was possibly more powerful than the US/Russia/China combined.

Would you clap your hands in excitement and go, "OMG!! I can't wait to meet my new friends!!"

Strange. Most people will hint that you are crazy if you believe in aliens because they have never seen any ufo and/or alien. Something you cant see, touch, hear, does not exist. Cloaking technology is too far fetched for the average dumbed down person.

I used to be in the dumbed down category myself, but after reading lots of material on the internet, watching ufo documentaries on tv, buying and reading books, I changed my mind.

Its not easy to believe in ufos and aliens. It takes some effort!

Oh... right, the intelligent beings. I see lots who stick to the theory that can be read even in a kid's encyclopedia about the evolution of the human species so that everyone having read them can repeat them like a parrot. Charming, Now how about a deeper review of evolution is made.

Okay we have lots of similarities like that of animals, our instincts, our body parts, it seems we do come from animals or a common ancestor and we have evolved. And there is your physiological evolution. No arguments here (unless someone did it so well that it looks evolution - but really why not, evolution has enough evidence).

When it comes to evolution of the human mind, the progress of animal thinking to starting to put clothes on your body parts, to start developing some kind of consciousness beyond that of animals, and I am talking about even the most primitive forms of the human mind show something WAY OFF, something that animals did not and to this day do not possess.

And to tell me that it just so happened when there are so many accounts of either other civilizations and whatever other beings -yes no solid evidence for that BUT to not even consider this POSSIBILITY - because that's what it is, a legitimate possibility, then this is just wrong to think.

To me it is more like some animals have been modified and some intelligence inserted into their brains... this does not happen like that, not with the many unclear things of the human origin.

tanka418
And herein is the problem; "irrefutable proof"! What most Terrestrials want as "irrefutable proof" is wholly unreasonable. Usually is something greater than the evidence required to deprive a fellow Human of his life.

And, y'all like to call yourselves "civilized".

Do you all know that "proof" exists only in mathematics (and sometimes Physics)? In science there are no "proofs" only compelling evidence.

So, ya see, all that mathematical probability? Yep, you got it...the only "proof" you get. Though with a probability of virtually 1...ET is a virtual certainty.

That's cool and all, more then welcome to your opinion.

If you can't give me actual proof then everyone should stop posting shaky pictures of lights in the sky and calling it an alien ship.

The science and math of it all says it should be there and much like the Higgs Boson until someone says "yup here it is and I can quantify and qualify it." it is just a theory.

Not really sure what any of that has to do with being civilized.

I'm a firm believer that we are cloaked by advanced aliens, they cloaked themselves too and they have cloaked other non-advanced planets with life.

A forced prime directive.

At least, this is what I would do if in their place.

What a troll. Get outta here..

reply to post by Emerys

AliceBleachWhite
The universe is beyond VAST.

There's room enough for HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of galaxy spanning space faring technologically advanced civilizations in the universe to exist, while at the same time still having enough room and space such that no other civilization ever runs into another, or ever even detects the existence of another.

There are limits though....

1. Time is a huge limit. There has been about 9 billion years since our universe evolved to actually have planets. The first 5 billion years the universe was creating the 91 other natural elements within massive stars. It took earth in its perfect state 4.5 billion years to get us.

2. Life has it limits. There is life and then there is advance life...advance life is very fragile, life in general, once it forms is hard to kill off, but species come and go all the time. In fact, for a species not to go extinct within a relatively short period of time is extremely unusual.

3. It doesn't take much to create a non-life environment. Both Mars and Venus are perfect examples of planets that were damn close, but just didn't line up perfectly with all needed requirements to sustain life.

4. If we didn't have Jupiter being the vacuum cleaner of our solar system we would not be here. Life resets would be much more frequent than the 70 million years we now have, so evolution would just not get the time to evolve.

5. If we didn't have the moon we would not be here. The temperature ranges would be extreme not allowing advance life to get a foot hold, and our moon is by chance that earth was hit but another planet type.

6. Need a G type star with about 5500-6000 degrees of heat to produce the visual light range. Bigger stars don't live so long and hotter/colder stars would give off Micro/ultraviolet waves and infrared/x-rays. Most stars are also binary so that doesn't help to create the stable environment needed for evolution to work. There is about 500 G type stars in a 100 light year ball from earth

The Universe is that big.

That's galaxy spanning, space faring, technologically advanced civilizations too.

Universe is big but we seem to forget that also means unimaginable distances and size.

Certainly there's Aliens ... somewhere in the universe.
Still, Aliens that can't be observed, detected, or interacted with are essentially worthless.

Thus, the only aliens that matter are those that we could detect, observe and potentially even interact with.
Thus far, we've none.

When we say life in general we can look at earth and see it has created billions of different life form, but in all that time it has created only one with the brains and physical means to go intro space. So far we cant even say if intelligence is a good or bad trait since it seems to die off rather quickly in the past.

I guess when we suggest the chances of space faring aliens in the universe we can say that they are out there, but I would not also suggest they have ever been here or ever will be here near earth unless we win the universe lottery. The problem with that lottery is it would be referred to as a statistical impossibility of when your chances are greater than 1X10^-50. Once again time does create limits to all of this.

opethPA
Not really sure what any of that has to do with being civilized.

The fact that you will condemn a Man to death based on less evidence than you would require to "prove" ET's existence is demonstration of a serious lack of civilization.

Your requirements for "proof" of ET are unreasonable, to the point that you will never get the "kind" of evidence you want. And, thus ET will never be proven.

The Higg's Boson has been found according to science. Do you really think you can understand the science that "proves" it? I seriously doubt that I could, and I have two advanced degrees. If you were presented with "proof" of ET do you think you could understand it? I bet not...

Go read the thread on Zeta Reticuli and the "Fish-Hill Map" and tell me that there are no extraterrestrials.

That "map" is very nearly all One needs to "prove" the existence of a specific extraterrestrial species. I'll bet it's not acceptable to you though.

We all live in a dynamic universe, static "proof" is non existent, or very misleading. Y'all need to think in a bit more of a "quantum" paradigm.


Certainty is non-existent.

tanka418
The fact that you will condemn a Man to death based on less evidence than you would require to "prove" ET's existence is demonstration of a serious lack of civilization.

You know this about me how?

tanka418
Your requirements for "proof" of ET are unreasonable, to the point that you will never get the "kind" of evidence you want. And, thus ET will never be proven.

Agreed, wanting 1 single clear picture or 1 single clear video is unreasonable.

tanka418
The Higg's Boson has been found according to science. Do you really think you can understand the science that "proves" it? I seriously doubt that I could, and I have two advanced degrees. If you were presented with "proof" of ET do you think you could understand it? I bet not...

Except it hasn't, proof of the impact of the higgs boson has been alleged to have been found but the particle itself still remains elusive.

tanka418
Go read the thread on Zeta Reticuli and the "Fish-Hill Map" and tell me that there are no extraterrestrials.
That "map" is very nearly all One needs to "prove" the existence of a specific extraterrestrial species. I'll bet it's not acceptable to you though.

Yup..I have read all about that case..
And all the other prominent cases..Roswell..Saw William Cooper lecture multiple times in person . Read every book I could. Saw all the STS video clips. Saw Friedman lecture.

The proof out there is enough for you to believe in UFOs, great.
It's not enough for me because all the items, pics, stories, videos to this point can be argued easily.

Both approach is no less valid then the other..I would have thought with your 2 advanced degrees you would understand the elements required to prove something as true.

tanka418

opethPA
Not really sure what any of that has to do with being civilized.

The fact that you will condemn a Man to death based on less evidence than you would require to "prove" ET's existence is demonstration of a serious lack of civilization.

Your requirements for "proof" of ET are unreasonable, to the point that you will never get the "kind" of evidence you want. And, thus ET will never be proven.

The Higg's Boson has been found according to science. Do you really think you can understand the science that "proves" it? I seriously doubt that I could, and I have two advanced degrees. If you were presented with "proof" of ET do you think you could understand it? I bet not...

Go read the thread on Zeta Reticuli and the "Fish-Hill Map" and tell me that there are no extraterrestrials.

That "map" is very nearly all One needs to "prove" the existence of a specific extraterrestrial species. I'll bet it's not acceptable to you though.

We all live in a dynamic universe, static "proof" is non existent, or very misleading. Y'all need to think in a bit more of a "quantum" paradigm.


Certainty is non-existent.

"Late 1963 - The Hills begin undergoing hypnosis at the hands of Dr. Simon, who would eventually conclude that they were sharing a manufactured story spurred by a nightmare. During these sessions, Barney describes entering the alien spacecraft and seeing the occupants. He describes them as wearing shiny black suits with matching caps. There was one alien who seemed a little bit taller and was standing at a window; Barney called him the Leader. He was dressed the same way, and when asked about him, Barney says that he looks like a Nazi, a "German Nazi." Though Barney seems to have served during World War II it is unclear whether or not he had ever seen a Nazi first-hand. Drawings show The Leader wearing a stylish scarf. From Barney's interview with Walter Webb, NICAP investigator, 21 October 1961:"

"The figures, according to Barney Hill were of human form dressed in shiny black uniforms and black caps with peaks or bills on them (which could be seen when the figures turned their heads). The uniforms were like glossy leather… The figures reminded the observer of the cold precision of German officers; they moved smoothly and efficiently and showed no emotion except for one figure operating a lever who, Mr. Hill claimed, looked over his shoulder and smiled… The 'leader' at the window held a special attraction for the witness and frightened him terribly."


I would also question the map in general since it was suppose to have been created during a hypnotic regression session. We just do not know when or who created it, when we talk proof it would be nice to have something actually alien as proof and not always by human design.

As a side note...

Is it not strange that the technology describe in these abductions is not as advance as one would seem but more inline with what the abductee would know? Advance aliens moving levers and wheels might seem advance in the past, but it seems that even today's technology was well beyond anything these abductee would see.

JadeStar

Emerys

Tucket
So what's your opinion on the subject? What ur thread title says?

My opinion on the subject is that I agree with most of it. That everyday science is proving that statistically we are probably not alone. To me, that's a lot more comforting than thinking we are alone. But at the same time, if satellites start finding no signs of life within light years of traveling, well, maybe there is a God after all..

Why does one have to negate the other?

Finding aliens does nothing to confirm nor deny the presence of a deity.

By the way, we've only begun to search. It will take time and money but we will find them. Probably within my lifetime (and yours if you are under 50).

My field of study is astronomy, astrobiology, etc so I plan to devote my life to finding 'em.

The real life star trek is underway. We just need to build bigger telescopes before even thinking about building star ships.

edit on 9-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

Let me rephrase my previous statement, I am well aware that even if other life is found that there still could be a God. But what I am suggesting that if no other life is found, even hundreds and thousands of years down the road of searching the cosmos, then maybe humanity should start looking into the idea that maybe the ancient religions were not so wrong after all. I do however, believe that other life exists, even the Bible says God did not create only us. Now it's just a matter of finding his other creations.

Xtrozero
I would also question the map in general since it was suppose to have been created during a hypnotic regression session. We just do not know when or who created it, when we talk proof it would be nice to have something actually alien as proof and not always by human design.

Please read this thread. You should find it quite informative. It is all hard science. BTW, the design is taken from actual star positions, exaggerated slightly to show that Zeta Reticuli is a binary star. The view is from approximately 70 light years from Earth in the direction of Zeta Reticuli. About 30 ly past Z. Ret. I have an accurate 3D model of the entire star system. You can see some "views" in the thread.

While this is not the kind of "proof" you want, it is very significant in a mathematical and probabilistic way, and alters the overall probability of not just the "Hill case" but the entire question of extraterrestrial existence and visitation.

Not long ago I attempted to calculate the probability of actually meeting an extraterrestrial on Earth. The "odds" weren't very good...



I mean really! 7.14285 E-10. That's like almost impossible. The Hill case alone alters that probability very significantly. I haven't done the math again, but, my guess is it has improved by many orders of magnitude.