Forcing the Second Coming

reply to post by Itisnowagain


In the hope of clarifying.

The Weight of Glory

It's about the true center and source of authentic desire on the ground of being and becoming.

Best Regards,

NAM aka Bob

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

It is impossible to force the second coming. That is just one more example of man's arrogance. Everything that happens was predestined by God and is His will. Any action taken by anyone to "force" or speed up the timeline to bring about the second coming was the will of God in the first place, and that action is just another part of his plan.

Three questions:

1. What's the point of praying if it's all predetermined anyway?

2. You're saying that the Holocaust, both world wars, the black plague, Stalin's ruthless decimation of his people, the atomic bomb, the Vietnam war, and every innocent person who is starving and diseased and raped and murdered and beaten even to this day is all a part of God's plan?

3. This is what God's omnipotence and omniscience, employed in perfect harmony, has done for us? For all of his power, this is as much as he's able to do?

If this is what is considered "benevolent", I hope the Second Coming never happens!

reply to post by AfterInfinity


So because God knows it makes your choices any less valid?

Most of those things you describe are uniquely human things, human evils. Had the people involved in those events acted like God wanted us to, even with a simple "Do unto others," would those things have happened? And had God stepped in to stop those events, would the people involved still have been making choices freely anymore?

As for the thread topic, you can't force the second coming. I guess this group is operating off the idea that the Gospel will have been heard all over before the 2nd coming, but it's ridiculous to think that these people they are proselytizing to haven't had the chance to hear the basic principle of Christian faith - namely that Christ died to redeem you and if you believe you will be saved. In my belief, I think this is all anyone has to hear to get the most basic idea. So long as this had traveled globally, and I see no reason to think it hasn't, then this aspect of prophecy has been fulfilled. Ergo, there is really no reason for this beyond a belief that they must proselytize which is part of some church systems.

But Christian sects really aren't alone in trying being about the 2nd coming. Try Mahdaviat which has gained prominence over the last 20 years in Iran.

reply to post by ketsuko

So because God knows it makes your choices any less valid?

First it's "God designed everything" then it's "God only knew how everything would turn out, but he's still all-powerful" then it's "God doesn't interfere in our affairs".

Make up your mind. Either he's competent or he isn't.

Most of those things you describe are uniquely human things, human evils. Had the people involved in those events acted like God wanted us to, even with a simple "Do unto others," would those things have happened? And had God stepped in to stop those events, would the people involved still have been making choices freely anymore?

What part of "God created everything, God controls everything, God is all-powerful and cannot be beaten" escapes you? This is the definition of cognitive dissonance. First he's the almighty dominatrix of the universe, then he's indifferent to our plights. First he plans everything out beforehand right down to the tiniest detail, then we determine what happens to us and he has no say in the matter until judgment day.

Can you be any more inconsistent? Let me talk to a REAL Christian. Or is this what passes for Christian these days? What a surprise.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

In the hope of clarifying.

Not sure what you are hoping to clarify.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Ok, you have a choice - Do you want God as puppet master or God as someone who lets things be? You can't have it both ways.

reply to post by Evanzsayz

I am glad you liked Tony.
If you liked Tony then you might also like this lovely lady - Lisa Cairns - she is smart too.

I don't get the point of religious prophecy at all. If you have been told about the beginning and the ending, why not live and let live in between?

You would think christians would be the biggest socialists of all knowing all your work and life is for an end already written.

reply to post by MOMof3


But that's if you actually think. "A free thinker is the devil's slave".

reply to post by ketsuko


I vote for a God which is not perfectly omnipotent nor omniscient. Maybe he's the greatest thing in our universe, but that wouldn't make him an infinitively powerful being.

Just powerful enough to influence what he created (and trillion times more powerful than us). After all, according to the Bible itself, he still has to "move his Spirit" onto the waters to create land in Genesis. Which means he is not infinitely omniscient nor omnipotent - he must spend a small quantity of effort to get information or interact with the universe.

Wouldn't that be a logical assumption?

reply to post by ketsuko

Ok, you have a choice - Do you want God as puppet master or God as someone who lets things be? You can't have it both ways.

Let things be. If things can work out, they will. If not, he won't need to be there for everything to go south. And in the end, if things do go south, the earth has ways of coming back from it.

Us, on the other hand? Ha. Not so much. Maybe it's better that way. It's not like we've earned the right to be here. If anything, we've presented 101 reasons to wipe us off the radar at the earliest opportunity, with extreme prejudice and no chance of parole.

swanne
reply to post by ketsuko

 

I vote for a God which is not perfectly omnipotent nor omniscient. Maybe he's the greatest thing in our universe, but that wouldn't make him an infinitively powerful being.

Just powerful enough to influence what he created (and trillion times more powerful than us). After all, according to the Bible itself, he still has to "move his Spirit" onto the waters to create land in Genesis. Which means he is not infinitely omniscient nor omnipotent - he must spend a small quantity of effort to get information or interact with the universe.

Wouldn't that be a logical assumption?

edit on 11-11-2013 by swanne because: (no reason given)

I look at him as the something akin to the writer of a computer program in the sense that he pre-existed this universe and designed it. Therefore, he's outside it and not bound by it's rules. That means he's not bound by space time the same way that we all are. That explains to me how he can know what will happen. He's sort of everywhere and everywhen if you will.

At the same time, He's also like a parent in that he understands that we need rules and regularity to our lives. If he wanted to, he could rewrite the laws of the universe to avert disaster all the time, but that would necessarily violate our understanding of reality and continuity. We know the universe is place of constant change. It's inevitable with the sun coming up every morning and the seasons in their time, volcanos, etc., so if those changes were just stopped, we'd feel like we couldn't count on anything, especially since we know God decreed it would be so.

God also wants humans to choose and choose freely how they will go in life. He could put a stop a lot of evils, but most of it would mean not allowing humans to choose freely. Sadly, so many of the bad things in life are things we do to each other either directly or indirectly. We could be stopped, but then, we wouldn't have freewill anymore, either.

No, the only way I see that God could allow for us to have freewill and for the universe to be a dynamic place if for Him to be largely hands off. That doesn't mean I don't think He doesn't occasionally choose to influence things, but when He does, I think He largely prefers to use natural events, very seldom acting in directly unnatural ways. This will likely change as we get closer to the end of things.

So, I guess the real question is whether or not you think God's knowledge of what you will choose to do takes away from your freedom to make that choice? It's not like you know what you will choose to do anchored in time like you are.

reply to post by ketsuko

I look at him as the something akin to the writer of a computer program in the sense that he pre-existed this universe and designed it. Therefore, he's outside it and not bound by it's rules. That means he's not bound by space time the same way that we all are. That explains to me how he can know what will happen. He's sort of everywhere and everywhen if you will.

Fails to explain where that writer came from, where his universe came from, where the writer of that universe came from, where that writer's universe came from, etc. It doesn't feel like you tried very hard at all.

Oh well. Go ahead, keep writing yourself into a corner. I've still got plenty of popcorn over here. And coffee. And smokes. Don't let me stop you.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


That problem will always exist no matter what I attempt to explain about my belief to you.

In the end, you have chosen to believe what you believe, and that's the point which is what I also clearly wrote.

Be happy. That's what it's all about.

Go enjoy your smokes.

reply to post by ketsuko


In other words, there's still some huge gaps in your understanding. Highly indicative of the stability of your beliefs. Just pointing it out. I'll go back to being less abrasive now.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by ketsuko

 

In other words, there's still some huge gaps in your understanding. Highly indicative of the stability of your beliefs.

You're perfectly welcome to believe whatever you like.

If my beliefs were unstable, they would not have held form for as long as they have (decades) without the guidance of a church and community to keep me brainwashed. Maybe I'm just not as eloquent as I would like in articulating exactly what I mean, or perhaps, you're just asking me things I find ridiculous.

Eventually, the cycle of creation has to come to an end for whatever faith you're speaking about. Even atheists face this problem. There has to have been something before the Big Bang. How does the universe come from nothing? And if there was something there, what created it? and so on and so forth. We all have to face the uncomfortable thought that eventually we are looking at a hall of mirrors with endless reflections of whatever our preferred beginning point is reflected endlessly in them going back into eternity. Bound in time/space like we are, does that surprise you?

God simply is.

Itisnowagain

NewAgeMan
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

In the hope of clarifying.

Not sure what you are hoping to clarify.

Ok, I am hoping to clarify that Toaism/Buddhism, when take to it's logical conclusion is both nihilistic and out of alignment with our actual human experience of what it means to be alive.

"What does it profit a man to gain the WHOLE world, but lose his own soul?" (character, passionate desire, charm, humor)

The very thought of "forcing" some all powerful God to do your will is almost as laughable as when I heard a preacher trying to say that the Jews had "stolen" God from the Arabs.

Would that not be like some high school kid stealing the entire Russian air force or something like it?

The mind reels at the possibility.

reply to post by teamcommander


Most people know that the Jews stole or "appropriated" God from the ancient Hindus and Egyptians and Sumerians, whereas Jesus summed it ALL up in himself and his Great Work so he really owned it.

reply to post by the2ofusr1

TextWell the anti-Christ will be the next savior to show up ...We in our time may get to see this creature who ever he is ..interesting times ....peace

This is immediately what I would look for coming from Bush. Not Christ Anti - Christ.

No one will say he is in the desert go and see him.
No one will say look here he comes now.
For the Lord himself wil come with the trumpet o0f God
( the whole world will hear )
riding a white horse and lo, (the whole world will see ) him
at his coming. These are my own words derived from what the Bible says.
What Jesus himself said. I believe they are accurate.

Please, whether you believe or not it is imparitive that you
aren't fooled by the coming imposter.