The 144,000 revealed... and they aren't "Jews".

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


Maybe my point is missed,

When seeking to explain something that's not clear in scripture it's ridiculously easy to fall into some of the old heresies.

There's nothing new under the sun, and seeking the 144 is just one example of a major trap Christianity has fallen into in the past, which fractured the church and lead many astray.

So we must be sure that is not something we do when we think we have "discovered" some new idea, most likely it's been thought of before and argued about far longer than we know.

reply to post by Broom


I did mention the tribe of Joseph. I feel that it replaced the tribe of Dan, which went apostate in the book of Judges. In Deuteronomy and Joshua we see the tribe of Levi being set apart from the rest. They were made Priests and religious leaders among the tribes. Here is one of many places God talks about Levi's inheritance...

Deuteronomy 18:1 (KJV)

The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and his inheritance.

I believe that the 24 elders mentioned elsewhere in Revelation are from the tribe of Levi.

guys just stop reading the bible literally
and you will find answers

reply to post by benrl


I don't think that I have discovered a new idea, I just think that the idea that the 144,000 are Jews on Earth today, or in the future is a logical impossibility. The pre-trib rapture, Darby/Scofield Dispensationalism Christians that teach this are very wrong, and the Bible is very clear on this topic. To be honest I don't even see any need for interpretation here because it is literally clear when read in context.

ShaeTheShaman
guys just stop reading the bible literally
and you will find answers

Let me know how that works out for you

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


An interesting speculation on this thought in relation to my reply to Rickymouse is this. Using 144000 as the the chosen number is severely limiting. It brings about a restrictive understanding . Where if, John was really looking for a very large number, maybe his thoughts were that whole bunches of people would be lifted. I'm of course just guessing here.

reply to post by TerryMcGuire

Yes, I see 144,000 as a number produced by multiplying two symbolic numbers;
!0 is the number which represents the world, 12 is the number which represents God's people.
So the number signifies "the perfection of God's people, occupying the whole world" (looking forward to the new Jerusalem).

reply to post by DISRAELI


Yeah, I used to worry and feel sorry for the 144,001st person and hoped it wouldn't be me. I remember when I was young I stood in line all afternoon to get a ride on the Goodyear blimp. All afternoon. In the hot sun, being a good boy. Playing by the rules. Finally I got to the head of the line and the blimp took off so I waited for the next trip when I could walk, triumphantly up the gang plank and in to the gondola and ascend into the heavens.

The blimp landed and the folks dis-embarked and the crewman drew up the plank and said that's all folks. I never did like the idea of 144000.

A question that comes to my mind would be, if these men were first of all, already dead and resurrected and brought miraculously back to earth, they would have to have supernatural bodies and would not need a mark to be protected and secondly, it would have been just as hard to find that many virgins in the O.T. days as it is now. You might also want to consider that the Holy Spirit whose only abode is in the hearts of the church will be raptures as a sign of the end of the present Age of Grace we are in and will usher in the 7 weeks (years) of tribulation. The man of sin WIll be revealed in the first 3 1/2 years but he won't show his true colors until the second half when he breaks the peace treaty he made ay the BEGINNING of the seven year period. He CANNOT come into power until "he who lets" (the Holy Spirit) is taken away and is is with the bride (church) at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
reply to post by lostbook

reply to post by Rex282


That is profound and implies that like the golden ration the 144 000 is a ratio whereby this begins to make more sense now:

simple.wikipedia.org...

If a person tries to write it, it will never stop and never be the same again and again, but it will start this way: 1.6180339887... An important thing about this number is that a person can subtract 1 from it or divide 1 by it. Either way, he will find the same number:

So your large and small amounts will always remain the same endlessly. This equation creates a perfect triangle which is another mystery. The basic phi relationships are used to create a right triangle,it also forms the dimensions of the great pyramids of Egypt which I don't believe is a coincidence. The Bible is also written in code also often relating to other principles that we don't necessarily see, know about or understand. What are these hidden codes pointing to in connection?

I saw in a dream what seemed an endless amount of both women and men. Their hearts were virginal not their bodies because their bodies were corrupted and made whole through the sealing. It was a state of faith and being that made them virginal. I saw the seals placed inside the forehead and only those with supernatural vision could see 'the sigil - (which was a letter or word in an ancient script) of Light' but to the rest of the world they could not see the seal.

I too would really like it if you could elaborate more on this golden ration knowledge and how you think it relates to the 144,000?

Revelation is the culmination (in book form) of a twisted message.

The historical presentation of apocolyptia (perpetrated on a generational scale of massive proportions) represents nothing more than the outworking of sustained sadomasochistic tendencies.

It is the perpetration of mental abuse implicating perpetrator and victim in the fantasy that has the sexual act/nudity at its core in the amorphous garden of eden.

What psychic forces that can be unleashed (specifically as lascivious demonry bent on taking over the world of spirit and material) as thoughtform is a damning indictment on ancient man (who may have had an excuse from ignorance)...but modern man (?) of fundamental bent is surely not that excusable.

Time to grow up, children.

Å99

TerryMcGuire
reply to post by OptimusSubprime

 

An interesting speculation on this thought in relation to my reply to Rickymouse is this. Using 144000 as the the chosen number is severely limiting. It brings about a restrictive understanding . Where if, John was really looking for a very large number, maybe his thoughts were that whole bunches of people would be lifted. I'm of course just guessing here.

John wasn't guessing at the number of the men he saw... the number was revealed to him.

OptimusSubprime

TerryMcGuire
reply to post by OptimusSubprime

 

An interesting speculation on this thought in relation to my reply to Rickymouse is this. Using 144000 as the the chosen number is severely limiting. It brings about a restrictive understanding . Where if, John was really looking for a very large number, maybe his thoughts were that whole bunches of people would be lifted. I'm of course just guessing here.

John wasn't guessing at the number of the men he saw... the number was revealed to him.

Even IF you were standing right next to him, you could never make this outrageous claim...

Å99

bonibluebird
A question that comes to my mind would be, if these men were first of all, already dead and resurrected and brought miraculously back to earth, they would have to have supernatural bodies and would not need a mark to be protected and secondly, it would have been just as hard to find that many virgins in the O.T. days as it is now. You might also want to consider that the Holy Spirit whose only abode is in the hearts of the church will be raptures as a sign of the end of the present Age of Grace we are in and will usher in the 7 weeks (years) of tribulation. The man of sin WIll be revealed in the first 3 1/2 years but he won't show his true colors until the second half when he breaks the peace treaty he made ay the BEGINNING of the seven year period. He CANNOT come into power until "he who lets" (the Holy Spirit) is taken away and is is with the bride (church) at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
reply to post by lostbook

 

When you read through the first 6 seals being opened, there is no evidence of any peace treaty. There is war and famine, and everything else bad that can be imagined. You mention the Age of Grace, which of course comes from Dispensationalism. To say that we are in the Age of Grace would imply that there was no Grace before this age, when in fact salvation by faith through Grace has always been there. To say that we are in the Age of Grace would also imply that before Jesus, people got to Heaven based on their works. This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Dispensationalism is false. Proof that people were saved by faith through Grace can be found all the way back in Genesis

Genesis 4:26 (KJV)

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

These men who started calling upon the name of the Lord are the descendants of Seth. Later these men are the men mentioned in Genesis 6 when the "sons of God" married the "daughters of men". They were saved by faith through grace, and because of that fact the Age of Grace and everything else associated with Dispensationalism is false.

akushla99

OptimusSubprime

TerryMcGuire
reply to post by OptimusSubprime

 

An interesting speculation on this thought in relation to my reply to Rickymouse is this. Using 144000 as the the chosen number is severely limiting. It brings about a restrictive understanding . Where if, John was really looking for a very large number, maybe his thoughts were that whole bunches of people would be lifted. I'm of course just guessing here.

John wasn't guessing at the number of the men he saw... the number was revealed to him.

Even IF you were standing right next to him, you could never make this outrageous claim...

Å99

If an angel of the Lord were to show me a bunch of men standing together, and then said angel of the Lord told me how many were there... I would believe him.

OptimusSubprime

akushla99

OptimusSubprime

TerryMcGuire
reply to post by OptimusSubprime

 

An interesting speculation on this thought in relation to my reply to Rickymouse is this. Using 144000 as the the chosen number is severely limiting. It brings about a restrictive understanding . Where if, John was really looking for a very large number, maybe his thoughts were that whole bunches of people would be lifted. I'm of course just guessing here.

John wasn't guessing at the number of the men he saw... the number was revealed to him.

Even IF you were standing right next to him, you could never make this outrageous claim...

Å99

If an angel of the Lord were to show me a bunch of men standing together, and then said angel of the Lord told me how many were there... I would believe him.

But YOU weren't on the island...so we're not talking about what YOU would have believed, IF YOU had been there...are we?

Å99

It means 9:

www.numerology.com...

However, whereas the 6 as a symbol of motherly (or fatherly) love, giving its love and care to friends, family and the immediate community, the 9 offers it to the world at large; the 9, more than any other number, has global consciousness. Looking at the shape of the symbol is, as always, quite telling. The 9 is like the 6 upside down, a symbol of her offering sympathy and compassion to everyone; a reservoir of giving with a generous downward spout.

The 9 lives in the world and understands the connections between all of mankind. It is a humanitarian, and sees no real difference between its neighbor next door and the person living in a very different culture and environment on the other side of the world. The 9 is the least judgmental of all numbers, the most tolerant and the most conscious.

numerology-thenumbersandtheirmeanings.blogspot.ca...

Character:
The Seer, artistry, high moral sense, good advisor....

9 is wisdom and responsibility, and the ultimate goal of the number 9 is to serve humanity. This vibration has come to serve the world and make it a better place for all to live in.

9 represents human's 'earthly lesson', which is 'forgiveness'. Number 9 learns selflessness and compassion.
People with the 9 energy work without motive. Their purpose is for the greatest good of all. They have a protective energy and they have great power and love in their soul. They are aware that they have come with a mission that adheres to the principle of Universal Love and compassion. ...

is the visionary with an insight into the Universal Higher Laws of Life. They are psychic, sensitive and thoughtful. The 9 energy person understands others' experiences of life, as they have gone through them and can give sympathy, support and love.

The 9 energy is the 'Light of the World', and life will demand that they be 'all things to all people'.'

John said from the very beginning that the book of Revelation is written in signs which are numbers (math equations) and metaphors(words).Nothing in it is predictive or prophetic of past, present or future historical events.It isn't a book to be decoded either.It is proclaiming with maths and metaphors what was, what IS and what is to come.

All of Revelation is about one thing only...the salvation (Yahoshua) of ALL mankind.It's the culmination of the scriptures Good News.

The core math is the Golden ratio (relationship) Phi through the Fibonacci sequence framed in the Pythagorean theorem.Everything is signified by math.It is Gods perfect language(The living word of God).The sums of the math is fulfillment of Gods word.It is on the "outside" of the scriptures written in words and "written"on the inside in numbers(math) because all the letters are numbers of Hebrew gematria and Greek isopsephy.

The Gospel of John is filled with math in the details that he uses like Yahoshua saying …destroy this temple (he meant his body) and in 3 days he would raise it.The Jews said the temple took 46 years to build so how could he raise it in 3 days.46 is the number of our chromosomes.

Fibonacci numbers(Fn for short) calculate Phi/phi.The DNA molecule, the program (seed) for all life, is based on Phi.It measures 34 angstroms long by 21 angstroms wide for each full cycle of its double helix spiral.
Fn9=34
Fn8=21

34/21=1.619,047,619,047,619,047,…

the numbers 619 and 047 repeat over and over to infinity.This is Gods inside math tip of the hat to 666
619+047=666

DNA in the cell appears as a double-stranded helix referred to as B-DNA.This form of DNA has a two groove in its spirals, with a ratio of phi in the proportion of the major groove to the minor groove, or roughly 21 angstroms to 13 angstrom.
13=Fn7
21=Fn8

The parable of the soils and seed culminates in the good soil growing a good tree yielding 30,60,100 fold of fruit.The parable of the soil and the seed was about the first fruits(the apostles).They are the 1st fruits of the seed …Yahoshua is the seed (the living word of God).

The fruits growth of 30,60,100 is a Fibonacci sequence which is how Phi is calculated.Everything God does has a purpose and has a perfection to it even though it can't all be seen.

These scriptures are a small glimpse into the process.Everything is about "growth" which is salvation.That is the core.There is much, much,much more of the deeper math of the infinite equation.The fact is God is in 100% control of everything.Man does not know what God is doing.They only make wild guesses with doctrines of men that are just speculations that mean nothing.

The perfection of math (Gods word)is doing all the work.Gods will/word can't be thwarted.Gods' purposes aren't by chance.The are the perfect precision of everything.The 1st verse of Genesis alone is almost mind boggling in what it says in numbers.The point is it is not something to be decoded to attain an enlightenment…it is a statement/proclamation of what IS. It has nothing to do with mysticism or religion.

The number 666 is very prominent and is intrinsically tied to the number 888 which in Greek isopsephy is the number of Iesous the translation of the Hebrew name of Yahoshua.666 and 888 are the opposite and adjacent sides of a Pythagorean right triangle triple.

666²+888²=1110²

None of it is by accident.The writers of the scriptures didn't know what they were writing was equations of numbers.John wrote many "outside" numbers(more than all the other synoptic Gospels) besides the inside numbers(isopsephy).That's why John's gospel and the book of Revelation are "signs" of the scriptures.It is the scroll of Revelation 5 that no one but Yahoshua could open(reveal).

The bottom line is God has formed all things through math.God is causing all things to grow by salvation (deliverance) from death to life.

The Fibonacci sequence sums Phi/phi(phi is the reciprocal of Phi) by dividing adjacent Fibonacci numbers .Phi is a number that infinitely "grows"and never resolves to exactly 1.618 or 0.618.In the early calculation stages of Phi/phi it is not yet 618 example …666

Fn3/Fn4
2/3=.666

as the Fn grow so does Phi/phi.At Fn12=144 Phi/phi stabilizes to infinity at 0.618…and 1.618….

Fn11/Fn12
89/144=.618,055,555,555,……..=phi

Fn13/Fn12
233/144=1.618,055,555,555,…=Phi

Phi is the 21st letter(Fn8) of the Greek alphabet and has a number value of 500
Phi=500
phi=500
500+500=1,000

that is the meaning of the "thousand". Yahoshua is the first fruit (seed) and the apostles are the first fruits (the apostles only) which calculates phi/Phi at 0.618 and 1.618.The apostles are the first "fruit"(spirit) to mature into a "relationship (ratio) with God.All the math(Fibonacci,Phi Pythagorean theorem etc etc..) adds up(and of course is infinitely complex) .

There is nothing to decode or decipher.It is not mysticism or religion or numerology or kabalism...It only comes by "revelation" from God.It is stating a proclamation of what IS.

reply to post by Rex282


I think I liked the horror movie version better, but that's just me...

Å99

Egyptia

That is profound and implies that like the golden ration the 144 000 is a ratio whereby this begins to make more sense now:

144,000 is not a "ratio".In the scriptures it is 144 thousand.It is not a "quanity" number but a quality number.144 needs to be in a ratio with another number to sum a ratio
ex
Fn11=89
Fn13=233

89/144= 0.618,055,555,555.....=phi
233/144=1.618,055,555,555....=Phi

Egyptia
If a person tries to write it, it will never stop and never be the same again and again, but it will start this way: 1.6180339887... An important thing about this number is that a person can subtract 1 from it or divide 1 by it. Either way, he will find the same number:

wiki got the basic idea right but got the math wrong.If you subtract 1 from Phi you get it's reciprocal phi.What it does that no other number does is when Phi is divided by 1 it equals exactly Phi -1 or when phi is divided by 1 it sums to exactly phi +1.

1.618033988749895 /1=0.618033988749895

and the reverse when phi is divided by 1 it sums to Phi

0.618033988749895 /1=1.618033988749895

another POV is if you add Phi and phi to create a line length

1.618033988749895 +0.618033988749895=2.23606797749979

the "A" section of the line is =1.618033988749895
the "B" section of the line is =0.618033988749895
the C is the line lenght=2.23606797749979

the ratio of A:B is the same as the ratio of C:B.That is the golden (perfect) ratio)..no other number does this.

Egyptia
So your large and small amounts will always remain the same endlessly. This equation creates a perfect triangle which is another mystery. The basic phi relationships are used to create a right triangle,

I have to stop you there so you don't get confused.Phi does not create a perfect triangle (I don't even know what that is) and equilateral triangle has sides that are all equal and the angles they create are all 60 degrees.That isn't Phi/phi

Egyptia
it also forms the dimensions of the great pyramids of Egypt which I don't believe is a coincidence.

Yes the Pyramid of Giza was calculated with Phi and many other maths...not Phi alone.That is a whole other story of it's perfection that are far from coincidences and of great importance.

Egyptia
The Bible is also written in code also often relating to other principles that we don't necessarily see, know about or understand. What are these hidden codes pointing to in connection?

yes there are an infinite amount of principle we don't know of however NONE of it is in code.It is proclaiming (just as yahoshua did) what IS.There is nothing to decode or decipher it can and only will be revealed by God.

Egyptia
I saw in a dream what seemed an endless amount of both women and men. Their hearts were virginal not their bodies because their bodies were corrupted and made whole through the sealing. It was a state of faith and being that made them virginal. I saw the seals placed inside the forehead and only those with supernatural vision could see 'the sigil - (which was a letter or word in an ancient script) of Light' but to the rest of the world they could not see the seal.

I don't doubt you had a dream however there is no such thing as having "supernatural" vision.God does not operate in mysticism of any kind.Revelation from God is not mysticism.That is the main reason these simple principles are not revealed.Man wants to postulate and turn them into mysticism then religion two things God is not about at all.

The foundation of everything God is doing is math. I know this is not enough drama for most however that is The Truth.They want Yahoshua to have studied mysticism in India so you can do the same thing or some other foolishness.Johns recording of what Yahoshua said is evidence he was always speaking(proclaiming) this "math". The language of God because Yahoshua IS the living word of God.It is his nature to do so.Yet NONE understood ANYTHING he said...including the disciples.(it is well documented in the scriptures).

His purpose was to "do the math".The seed that multiplies to create a ratio..relationship with 1..the God the Father and God the Son.The Father =Fibonacci 1=1 the Son =Fibonacci 2=1

1:1.618033988749895=Phi=The Father ratio
1:0.618033988749895=phi=The Son ratio

It's perfect....do the math.