I think the people had to blame something for those kids who shot up Columbine, because they didn't want to blame themselves. That's like when people blame marilyn manson's music for making kids kill themselves and sh*t.

i hate when people say that games/music are so violent and they should take them away from kids and stuff. Well you know what is really violent? The news. all they show is bad stuff. But no one complains about that. So if you're going to take away games and music, then you might aswell take away your Television set aswell. But that wouldnt do any good. Know why? because Even if a kid didn't have any of those, chances are he could still go insane and do harm to someone, or his or herself. Because when it comes down to it, Its the surroudings your in. Your Family, Your peers, and then finally...its you.

[Edited on 21-5-2003 by CindyPants]

Look upon it as aversion therapy.

Well for starters, the news is real........well most close to real!!!
Music is dependant on the words and the artist ........Kids today want to BE LIKE THEM....they want to do everything like them.......they imitate them, the way they dress(most dress like ......well , might as well go naked! )
Kids being brought up in an enviroment with nature.....eg....animals , trees , flowers , kids their own age with good morals ........will be different as adults .......compared to kids being brought up with.......music that dont make sense, or music sung by 12 yr old that speak about falling in love and so on.......
Tv/Cinema ..........movies that have violence and stupid unbelievable ,pointless meanings to it ....will eventually create a kid with similar beliefs to what is portrayed in the movie/show etc........

A child needs to be brought up with good morals..........and today(many) parents dont even know the word''good morals''
They believe that a child will understand the way to be when that kid gets older.........but that is so wrong...........what that kid saw growing up, that is how that kid will learn to be.........although the kid may have their own ''mind'' to make of what is right or wrong, it is still imbedded into the mind from childhood........

eg.............the tv show '''Charmed'' my daughter is 13 yrs old........all her friends watch the show(she tells me)and she wants to watch it as well...........
The show seems harmless at first..........demons , witches (white/black magic ..all the one and the same.)Good fighting evil...........what a big lie........a spell is a spell.........
A demon is a demon............whether he is a good demon/or he is a bad demon , he is one and the same........
It allows the child to come in contact with supernatural stuff so that, that child cannot distinguish b/tween what is right/truth/good/evil..........
It blinds reality ......it allows the child to slowly become another brainwashed , non ''free will'' puppet for the way society wants you to behave and dress and what to eat , when to eat it, what to watch , when to watch it, how to speak , when to speak it, and most of all........it takes away the desire to think for ourselves ...........We allow the people of this world tell us what is good for our children and ourselves........we become slaves to the modern way of life.......we become slaves to the New World Order...........the New Age of todays life style.........and the funny thing is ...........we think it was all our own doing...........with no strings attached.........

I didn"t imagine you playing DOOM2...

I've played Descent every night for one mounth and after I felt mind twisting and rolling ...

Nothing is better than Doom. That was the game that blew Wolfenstein out of the water. Then came Quake and Duke Nukem, which were junk when put next to the concepts of Wolfenstein and Doom. All done by the same people mind you.

Quake originally was supposed to be more primative then the version it came out to be. The original concept of Quake was, you wake up from being knocked out by a huge earthquake, and go outside to find humanity in civil disorder and chaos rampant throughout the land.

It was supposed to be as real life as it can get, but somehow the fat cats got what they wanted and tweaked the creators design. That is why Quake stinks to me, is because it was supposed to be present tense, and universally intuned to the concepts that we in this world call reality. Unfortonately Quake didn't take that route and stuck to some fantasy based story.

While Duke Nukem did the same, at least it didn't seem to out of reach with reality. You see, Duke Nukem was about alien invasion of Earth, Quake was more like alien resistance in a foreign land. Unlike Wolfenstein and Doom, Quake wasn't based on any keystones of our versions of reality. While we accept that Alien invaders can come to our planet, we today don't really say that we can invade them.

Doom is realistic is some sense because it deals with demons in Hell. Most people believe in Hell, and almost everyone believes in demons. Wolfenstein is impecable when it comes to realistic tone, which is my opinion what makes the game so great and ground breaking. For it is something people can relate to.

Just as Doom is as well. Why???

Well, most people can relate to killing demons and Nazis. Only hard-core humanists are prone to object to this stance. That is why those games are two of my favorites, and that is why I think that they are so popular.

If those games have forced me to be partial to Nazis and demons, then so be it. This is the life I was born into anyway.

Out of all people here, I would have expected you to know this Nans. For it is well claimed on my part that Nazis and Satanist are no different and are the worst of the worst. Games like Doom and Wolfenstein gave me the clarity and comfort in that belief. So yeah, these games totally controlled my mind. They told my mind, it is okay.


You See?

[Edited on 22-5-2003 by Abraham Virtue]

Video games cannot have such a dramtic effect on the mind of a child as to enduce murderous rage. It really only depends on the individual, and to a certain extent, the content of the game. For example, if a violent idiot plays a violent mindless game, then he might become slightly more violent as a result. However, I don't think games have very much effect on level headed players at all, other than that they temporarily limit intelligent thought.

Some puzzle solving, or less linear "god" games can actually encourage thought and creativity, which can only be a good thing. Really good games only come along once in a while, though, and the majority are quite pointless.

I tend to try to keep thinking when I play games, either by playing mentally challenging games, by conversing with a friend over a multiplayer game, or playing music on my hi-fi, and turning the game's volume down. Otherwise, I can easily slip into a vegetative state, where all my actions in the game become instinctive.

Games don't make me think differently about anything, but they could have a different effect on young children. Whether they influence actions in real life is another matter, and as they cannot permenantly impare our ability to think for ourselves, I doubt that games are capable of doing such things.

DESCENT is better than doom. Because Descent is one og the only videogame where you dont kill anybody. Even if you try to shoot the hostages, you cant.

You are pilot of a space-mine and you must destoyed the working-robots and the core of non-earth mines.
You must also free humans hostages from the mine.

The game is great, dificult and the A-I of the robots is good...
The only problem is that the game is too hard and the last boss is unbeatable, even at easy level, without using cheats...

But that's the beauty of being human! We can cheat. In other words: We are better than machines. We can understand the rules and than go beyond them. We think creatively.

I think that computer games can't have such a vast effect on a persons mind but i do believe it could have a slight influence on somebody's actions - like sum1 said earlier - it all comes down to how and what a person thinks.
BUT, all these violent games and television films do have an affect, well thats what i think, jus look at how many murders and deaths you will wintess while wotching television films and playing video games in just ONE session.
makes ya think doesnt it..

i haven't seen this thread till now. would have commented sooner.




that's the silliest thing i've ever read (well one of the silliest). where did you read that dragonrider? also the kids wern't "addicted" to the game like a drug, they just played it a lot.

i don't see how you could hide messages in the game. why would the developers want to do that? what would there motive be? besides for games like doom you can get all the source code now for free. i think id has release the code up to quake 1 now. so you can look through every bit of data in the game.

i hate it when people blame forms of entertainment for the cause of violence. i would agree that young children should not be exposed to such violent material, but thats just common sence. parents just need to learn to control what there children get there hands on and be more responsible. but when used or viewed by the people that the producted was intended for it has no effect. like others here have said and i will just restate. the columbine kids (forgot there names) had issues. social issues. they were outcasts, made fun of etc. it sure wasn't from playing doom... i must say i found it some what amusing to see the news media reporting on doom at that time and showing how "violent" it was. the game is so outdated and is nothing compaired to todays games, but anyway i think i'm starting to ramble. i just wanted to put in my say since i work in the gaming industry (well sort of) and wanted to voice my thoughts.

"Computer games seem to 'simplistic' to be able to be able to brainwash people."

Yes that's very true- but there are some unique ones as well. Besides, with 'good' games, the players often spend hours upon hours focused on the game. Even if the conditioning were subtle, the amount of time exposed to it would certainly imprint something. Think of the game as a stimulus- the response being the individual's behavior.

Now, that's just my own theory about how it would be easy to implement. I haven't heard of any credible cases.

If I remember correctly, some have alleged that Klebold & friend were both victims of ritualistic abuse, perhaps programmed to fulfill their end time directives. Very strange stuff.

jra: Agreed.

As someone who has been gaming for over 20 years now, I had to laugh when I heard Dragon's comments. Maybe he should read the new book "Masters of DOOM". In there, they tell you the history of the men behind that game, and nowhere will you see any mention of CIA ties.

John Carmack, Adrian Carmack, and George Romero were nothing but greasy, upper middle class Computer nerds working in their mother's basement until they got the idea for Wolfenstien. Anyone who bothered to do some research could have figured that much out.

Though it appears that not too many people want to *do* any research.


[Edited on 25-5-2003 by Kai-Raega]

That the ignorant mind of a child can be manipulating to his/her person when the child has been directed in his/her intent to do so. For the intentions of wanting to play in the rain would be endless in it's possibilites of intent. As would a video game.

Then one must understand that all video games are different by the indifference of their perspective contents. The content of something always defines the attractions of those things.

So if one were to think:

"Why does my child want to play in the rain???"

"Is it to get wet???"

"Is it to be different and wild???"

The possibilites that would go through the above mentioned parents' heads would be wild and complex. The parent would think of his/her role in the side effects of the attraction the these particular intentions of his/her child to play in the rain. As would any other parent do with any perspective video game.

Now considering that these games all have different content that appeal to the intent, one must realize that these same mind frustrations will occur within the parent of the child playing these video games. Especially the ones that are extremely violent and realistic. Games like Grand Theft Auto 3 and Hitman.

The parents will wonder the following:

"Does my child like to play that James Bond game because he has desires or intentions to be like James Bond???"

"Why is James Bond is choice???"

"Why not Mario???"

Constant and obsessive game play of these games will be met with constant accumulating worry upon the worried parents. Until these questions start to occur in their minds:

"Is my child obsessed with shooting people on games???"

"Does he enjoy the realistic, offensive and outrageous manner of the content of these games???"

"Does this make him happy???"

"Why this and not time at the movies with me???"

Makes you wonder what the child thinks. For the child usually doesn't. Children play games to get away. Yet the parent doesn't see that. They see the exact opposite. They see them getting in.

Then see them getting into violence and gore. The parents must think that this is bad for their child, but they never seem to know in what way. They always have that uncertain thought. They can never really decide if the game will cause their child harm due to the games intent, or if it is their' own child's intent that will be the cause of the child's moral demise.

So the games that one plays has an effect, but to exactly what effect that is, we have yet been able to determine.

"So the games that one plays has an effect, but to exactly what effect that is, we have yet been able to determine."

An entertaining work of logic, with a sound conclusion! Nice job!

Okay, I did some digging. I can't provide links because it is an access-restricted database, however I will cite sources. I tried to pick the most relevant and current studies, but there are a host of others that I just don't have the time to review. The source comes first, then the quoted Abstract. Please remember that none of these studies can demonstrate CAUSALITY.

__________________
Knapp, H.E. (2002). Desensitization aftereffects of playing violent videogames. Dissertation Abstracts International Section A: Humanities & Social Sciences Vol 63(5-A), p. 1997.

Abstract: "Purpose. The goal of this investigation was to measure the extent to which playing a violent videogame affects the way that adults perceive real-life aggression. Hypotheses. It was hypothesized that participants who were initially exposed to a violent videogame would be desensitized to aggressive behavior and hence might hesitate longer before intervening in (what appears to be) a real-life escalating physical confrontation, than participants who played a nonviolent videogame, and (presumably) experienced no such desensitization. Methods. Forty adult males (18 years or older) were recruited and tested individually. Each participant was randomly assigned to play either a violent or a nonviolent videogame for 15 minutes followed by observing what appeared to be a live video feed of an escalating physical confrontation between two young boys. Participants were instructed to push an intercom button to have an adult intervene should the children start to 'get into it' with each other. Findings. Overall, participants pressed the intercom button within a 90 second window. An analysis of variance (ANOVA) computation revealed a statistically significant difference (p = .006) between the two groups response times: participants who played the violent videogame responded (on the average) 18 seconds later than those who were exposed to the nonviolent videogame. Implications. These findings suggest that playing a violent videogame alters the way that adults perceive real-life violence. This may serve as a disinhibitory factor, thereby propagating an elevated potential for (real-life) aggressive behavior in such individuals."

_______________________________


Vaupel, C. A. (2002). The effects of video game playing on academic task performance and brain wave activity. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section B: The Sciences & Engineering Vol 63(5-B), 2642.

Abstract: "The purpose of this investigation was to examine whether playing video games affected children's ability to perform certain cognitive functions. Thirty middle school students 10 to 14 years old who played video games in their leisure time participated in this controlled study. Restricted measures of math performance, memory, attention and planning, reading rate and comprehension, as well as beta and theta activity in the brain were collected as pre- and post-test measures. Participants were randomly assigned to either the experimental or control group. Participants in the experimental group played video games for one hour, while participants in the control group played card or board games for one hour. Multivariate analysis of variance (MANOVA) procedures were used to analyze pre- and post-test mean differences between groups for all variables. No significant differences were noted. When this sample of middle school aged children engaged in video game play with mildly rated (E for Everyone) recreational video games without blood, gore, and carnage for a limited time (60 minutes), brain wave activity and ability to perform certain academic tasks did not appear to be disrupted. Practical applications of the study are discussed."

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Panee, C. D., & Ballard, M. E. (2002). High versus low aggressive priming during video-game training: Effects on violent action during game play, hostility, heart rate, and blood pressure. Journal of Applied Social Psychology Vol 32(12), 2458-2474.

Abstract: "Playing violent video games is related to increased negative affect and cardiovascular reactivity. We examined the influence of high and low aggressive priming during video-game training on violence during game play (e.g., shooting, choking), hostility, frustration with game play, blood pressure, and heart rate. Male undergraduates (N=36) were assigned to a high aggressive or low aggressive video-game priming condition. After training, they played Metal Gear Solid(R), which allows players to advance by using stealth, violence, or both. Participants in the high aggressive priming condition used significantly more violent action during game play and reported more hostility than those in the low aggressive priming condition. Heart rate was correlated with feelings of hostility. These findings indicate that both aggressive priming and use of game violence influence arousal and negative affect and might increase behavioral aggression."

_____________________________


Nelson, M. R. (2002). Recall of brand placements in computer/video games. Journal of Advertising Research Vol 42(2), 80-92.

Abstract: "Product placements have become popular across media, including computer and video games, as a way to increase brand awareness. This paper explores effectiveness of placing brands in a racing game across two preliminary studies by asking 20 respondents (16 men and 4 women, aged 18-25 yrs) which brands they recalled directly after game-play and at a five-month delay. Game players were readily able to recall about 25-30% of brands in the short-term and about 10-15% at a delay. Brands demonstrated recall superiority when they were a major part of game-play or when they were local or new brands, atypical of brands found in games, or relevant to the consumer. When asked their attitudes toward product placements, players were generally positive, indicating that they did not consider the practice deceptive and that brands can enhance game-realism. Open-ended comments revealed that players' attitudes, however, depended upon the game genre and how and where the brand appeared."

_______________________________


Benedict, J. O. (1990). A course in the psychology of video and educational games. Teaching of Psychology Vol 17(3), 206-208.

Abstract: "Describes an upper-level psychology course that increases awareness of psychological principles (e.g., learning, conditioning) demonstrated by video games and that examines the effects of these games on young users. Students read and discuss relevant literature and apply this knowledge to computer games that they programmed. A case-study approach is used in the course."

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Grossman, D. (2000). Teaching kids to kill. In R.S. Moser & C.E. Frantz (Eds.) Shocking violence: Youth perpetrators and victims--A multidisciplinary perspective.; p. 17-32. Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Abstract: "Examines the contribution of the media and video games to the outbreak of youth violence. It is noted that how the military increases the killing rate of soldiers in combat is instructive because our culture is doing the same thing with our children, but without the safeguards of discipline and character development that the military uses. The training methods that the military uses are brutalization, classical conditioning, operant conditioning, and role modeling. The author explains these in the military context and shows how these same factors are contributing to the phenomenal increase of violence in our culture."

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Horn, E., Jones, A., & Hamlett, C. (1991). An investigation of the feasibility of a video game system for developing scanning and selection skills. Journal of the Association for Persons with Severe Handicaps Vol 16(2), 108-115.

Abstract: "Examined the effectiveness of a microcomputer-operated video-game format in training 3 students (aged 5 yrs 2 mo to 8 yrs 1 mo) with multiple handicaps (e.g., severely limited vocal speech acquisition) to make scan and selection responses similar to those needed for operating linear scanning augmentative communication aids. The video scanning and selection game systematically shaped scanning on more complex screens by increasing the number of boxes presented simultaneously on the screen. Ss participated in a multiple probe across-Ss design to evaluate the effectiveness of the video game. All 3 Ss showed increases in the number of correct scan and selection responses made at all 3 levels of difficulty. All Ss were also able to transfer use of the skill to a communication device."
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[Edited on 25-5-2003 by MKULTRA]

Sure I heard a thing about some sega game once that was meant to use some sort of sound frequency to get people hooked on playing it. It never turned anyone evil though, nor was that the intention, but if they could get people addicted to it I'm sure they coudl do more subtle and dangerous things too. But then again the story might have been completely false. Anyone else hear about that?

LOL. To blame computer games for violence in children is another easy way out.
In my view, computer games are not powerful enough to make anyone kill unless they already have some underlying wish to kill built into their system from previous experiences. I'm not simply stating that computer games are innocent though. They could be the trigger for an episode of violence. BUT THEN SO COULD ANYTHNG ELSE!!!
If you blame computer games and see them as some sort of mind control, that is your problem buddy. Not the game's. If you can't deal with fictional reality, you are the only one who has brainwashed yourself.

That's not to say that kids should be given free run at PC games. Parents should watch over them. Guide them. If you are a good person you should raise your child to be a good person and if YOU believe that a PC game is detrimental to them then YOU should stop them from playing them. Is that so difficult? Do you not have hands? Can you not pull the plug?

Elsewhere you complain that you don't get given enough freedom. When you do get that freedom you don't understand how to handle it. It's YOUR choice. Use it.

The real reasons for violence are anti-socail environments, poverty, abuse or just the fact that some people are bastards generally. Computer games can't really screw up a mind that isn't already screwed up as you said, but if they got into very young children's hands they could do a lot of damage. But that's really the parents fault, isn't it?

They blame video games for violence in schools because you can't ban idiots.

SImple as that.