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Should Religious People Be Held Responsible?

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posted on Nov, 9 2013 @ 08:28 AM
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Beavers

WarminIndy
reply to post by Beavers
 




I'm not giving false hope to anyone. Other than being forced to defend my faith against attacks from fanatical-atheists like you, my faith and hope is private and doesn't effect you or anyone else in any way shape or form.

And if you're anti-ignorance, you must have a lot of evidence that proves there definitely isn't an afterlife or a creator. Care to share any of it?


THIS is the funniest response of the day for me.

Perhaps the other posters would get the same laugh out of this one.

All you posters out there who know me and have read my threads, posts, comments, rebuttals and statements, can you please show this person where they went dreadfully wrong with me?

Dude, I am a Christian and said so in my first post. I am not an atheist, I am not an agnostic and I am not anti-religious. I am a Bible Believing follower of Jesus Christ. So another Christian who nails you on "I do not care" and you think the Christian has no right to hold you to accountable to your statement?

Yes, you have given false hope when you say you don't care if it is true or not. And if you are a Christian, then you wouldn't even have the least little bit of suspicion that it might not be true, and you are the reason people become agnostic and atheist, because if you don't know or care, then why should they?




posted on Nov, 9 2013 @ 02:16 PM
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I had a synchro moment when I saw this today, I thought this was very fitting.



Peace, NRE.



posted on Nov, 9 2013 @ 02:21 PM
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WarminIndy

Beavers

WarminIndy
reply to post by Beavers
 




I'm not giving false hope to anyone. Other than being forced to defend my faith against attacks from fanatical-atheists like you, my faith and hope is private and doesn't effect you or anyone else in any way shape or form.

And if you're anti-ignorance, you must have a lot of evidence that proves there definitely isn't an afterlife or a creator. Care to share any of it?


THIS is the funniest response of the day for me.

Perhaps the other posters would get the same laugh out of this one.

All you posters out there who know me and have read my threads, posts, comments, rebuttals and statements, can you please show this person where they went dreadfully wrong with me?

Dude, I am a Christian and said so in my first post. I am not an atheist, I am not an agnostic and I am not anti-religious. I am a Bible Believing follower of Jesus Christ. So another Christian who nails you on "I do not care" and you think the Christian has no right to hold you to accountable to your statement?

Yes, you have given false hope when you say you don't care if it is true or not. And if you are a Christian, then you wouldn't even have the least little bit of suspicion that it might not be true, and you are the reason people become agnostic and atheist, because if you don't know or care, then why should they?


I (like most people) have a touch of the Schadenfreude in me...

I wanted to watch the foot being extricated from the mouth.

Å99



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 01:01 AM
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akushla99

BO XIAN
reply to post by livinglifeseekingtruth2
 


Maybe I can translate. Sometimes I just make it worse but I'll try to make it better:

that there's a knot of dyed in the wool TRUE BELIEVERS extremely hostile to Christianity at the flick of an eyelash hereon.

A LOT of Eric Hoffer type "True Believers" hostile to Christianity for any excuse pontificate a lot hereon.

I don't know how to make that more clear or more simple.


They post threads with outrageously baiting and harshly provocative titles and then rant with utmost haughty indignation when Christians dare to go on such threads to defend themselves and their beliefs.

Don't know how to make that simpler. Those hostile to Christianity & Christians chronically rant and attack whenever and wherever Christians and their perspective appear on ATS

Such hostile and displeasurable characters also rant endlessly about being SCIENTIFIC

Don't know how to make that clearer

yet, they UTTERLY FAIL to have the SCIENTIFIC integrity to

DISTINGUISH between INTRINSIC CHRISTIANS VS EXTRINSIC CHRISTIANS PER THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE.

This is not that hard to understand.

1. CHRISTIANS [and virtually all other belief orientations] can be divided into 2 basic camps.

A) Those who TAKE ON the belief system, ideas, philosophy, dogma etc. as a kind of COAT to parade about in for social, business, whatever EXTRINSIC REASONS. The belief system is NOT REALLY PART OF THEIR HEART REALITY LIVED-OUT FROM THEIR HEART (INTERNALLY, INTRINSICALLY) OUTWARDS.

B) Those who OWN the beliefs as authentic reality and endeavor however imperfectly to WALK OUT those beliefs in practical, real, tangible, congruent, authentic ways day in and day out--OUT OF A NATURAL OUTFLOW--FROM THEIR HEART OUTWARD--of their sincerely held beliefs that they genuinely own as their own, real true foundation.



They UTTERLY FAIL to note that it is the EXTRINSIC CHRISTIANS IN STUDY AFTER STUDY who have been/are guilty, as a group, of the deplorable evils

This is not that hard to understand.

The Chronically-Reflexively-Hostile-to-Christians on ATS persistently DO NOT DISTINGUISH between INTRINSIC CHRISTIANS VS EXTRINSIC CHRISTIANS.

That's not only dumb, stupid, inaccurate . . . it's dishonest to reality.

It is the same as saying that

--the one in 10 million honest politicos is identical to all the dishonest politicos;
--the one in a thousand innocents in prison is identical to all the dishonest prisoners;

--the XX in whatever percentage of welfare cheats is identical to all the desperate honest single parents genuinely needing welfare;

--the fracking caused quakes are identical to the non-fracking caused quakes;

--the idiots who jump off buildings with feathers glued to their arms are identical to those who prefer to fly in airplanes;

--religious shysters are identical to the authentic versions--the Mother Theresa's, Curry Blake's and St Francis type folks;

--the cruel disordered folks who torture kittens to death are identical to the vegans who refuse to eat meat to avoid being cruel to animals . . .

etc.


that the VERY UNSCIENTIFIC hostile naysayers blame on all Christianity--including the INTRINSICS.

It's NOT SCIENTIFIC to label opposites as identical, the same.

Yet, THOSE ON ATS who RANT THE MOST about VERIFIABLE SCIENTIFIC FACTS


IGNORE THE FACTS about INTRINSIC VS EXTRINSIC Christianity ALL THE TIME.

I have yet to see a single one of them make the SOLID SCIENTIFIC DISTINCTION BETWEEN EXTRINSIC PSEUDO-CHRISTIANITY VS INTRINSIC, AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANITY. Some will note slightly in passing that Christians make a similar distinction between "real Christians" vs phony Christians. But they don't seem to really articulate what I'm talking about and they don't seem to have a whiff of an understanding of the very real distinction and the FACTS related thereto. They pass off such talk as disingenuous, false, shallow, inconsequential etc.

THAT'S SCIENTIFICALLY DISHONEST, UNTRUE, INACCURATE.

I don't know how to make that clearer.



What a stinking pile of absurdity and wholesale lack of scientific or any other kind of intellectual or personal integrity.

I don't know how to make that clearer

Their blame-throwing rants also demonstrate chronically a wholesale lack of personal or group insight into the junk of their own religion of science cohorts, much less, of themselves personally.

[color]Teal]Their rants utterly fail to demonstrate any significant insight into the inconsistencies of their own perspectives


And, they UTTERLY FAIL to "get it" in terms of the FACT that their hostile labeling, marginalizing of Christianity mentality is lock stock and barrel VERY AKIN to the beginnings of Hitler's treatment of the Jews.

Their hostile labeling and marginalizing--seeking to remove Christianity and Christian perspectives from the public square and public discourse--is essentially IDENTICAL to what Hitler did with the Jews in the earlier stages. They seem to totally fail to have the least bit of understanding or insight into THAT FACT. I don't know how to make that clearer.

In some respects, I grieve for them. They not only appear to have sold their souls to the devil, but their minds and wills, too.

I don't know how to make that clearer.

Certainly, they are among the most negative and off-putting aspects of ATS.

I don't know how to make that clearer. Their habits and chronically T&C violating posts hereon are outrageous. It takes a ton of gracious and tough minded tenacity and courage to bother reading their trash, much less replying sensibly and within the T&C.

Sometimes, they seem to have the persistent capacity to make merely reading the RECENT THREADS listing a very off-putting and hostile-to-Christian-readers experience.

Given the almost constant posting of threads with outrageously Christian-bating titles--simply reading the list of titles in the RECENT listing is an insulting affront to many, if not most authentic Christians. I don't know how to make that clearer.

At least, the mgmt has clipped their wings slightly. They seem to have to pretend to be civil a lot more than they used to. Nevertheless, they also STILL get away with far more personal and personhood assaults than any other value orientation on ATS or on the web, in my experience.

And they seem to exalt in such nastiness as though it were entirely justified because ALL Christians are so inherently evil in their omniscient views. Seesh what UNSCIENTIFIC arrogance.

Sigh.

= = = =

Enough. If you can't or won't understand the above at this point, I doubt that you are trying or want to.


I think you need a holiday...

Å99


Sweetie... You need to get off the internet.

It is making you a bit crazy.

You are a mere baby in this world...

FOCUS!

It was the color I chose that got you enraged wasn't it?



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 01:15 AM
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reply to post by livinglifeseekingtruth2
 



akushla99

I think you need a holiday...

Å99

"Sweetie... You need to get off the internet. It is making you a bit crazy. You are a mere baby in this world... FOCUS! It was the color I chose that got you enraged wasn't it?" Quote livinglifeseekingtruth2

I think you might be responding to the wrong person
My text at top was for the un-nested poster (which wasn't you)

Å99



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


If I responded wrong... I apologize.

I made a point to stay off the internet and leave a footprint for a few years...


It is hard to follow the "new" format.

I will review my posts ASAP and correct my reply to address the target individual.

Nice to know the color thing triggers a response though....



posted on Nov, 10 2013 @ 02:05 AM
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reply to post by livinglifeseekingtruth2
 


No probs.

2nd lion

Å99



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 02:38 AM
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edit on 18-11-2013 by paleorchid13 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by NoRegretsEver
 



"So here it is. Should religious people be held responsible for the feelings of the non-religious? Now the reason why I ask, is that the teachings of religion, the stories, people, places, well... they are written in black and white. This is the same as a classroom all learning from the same book, they should all have the same idea, or at least understanding of the topic... right?

Correct OP,

You are on the right track. Ephesians 4:5 says there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Jesus established
one faith, Roman Catholicism.

All the other are break aways from the faith, Roman Catholicism. All the world, non-Christians too will be shown this in the prophesied for a long time now....the Great Warning (Rev 6:15-17, 1 Cor 3:13).

This is a gift from God to save souls.



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 03:22 AM
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I see from time to time a great many posts which tend towards taking the same tack as the OP and then as the thread continues...the same litany of "Usual Suspects" come along with the same type of predictable arguments and debate points.

But what I notice on both sides of this debate is the absence of certain informations and histories. The lacking of certain knowledges.

Concerning Atheists and those who dont believe in God..and in particular the non belief in the Christian God.

There is a serious problem with the history and the tendency to try to tie in their system of non belief to science. Ironically many Christians themselves are also very ignorant of the history and what it reads and tells. It should not be this way and I believe their own ministers keep them this ignorant...on purpose.


The problem with the history is this...from R. J. Rummel.

Democide or death by democracy ..death by ones own government.

en.wikipedia.org...

Notice about three quarters of the way down this article on Democide...you find this little jewel.


His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the actions of people working for governments than have died in battle.


There is a serious historical problem with this statement and how it pertains to science, reason, logic and other disciplines.

The last 100 years talked about in the quote is the time of wise men..intelligences, enlightened, educated men..times of science...where 262 million people have been killed by their own government and this is in addition to those killed in war.

Many of the people killed by their own government have been killed in anti god and particularly anti Christian God nations..nations of logic, reason, and science. I refer here to the Communist governments. Governments of logic, reason, even of science.

Even the Muslims ...in the more radical nations believe in science.

What are some of you people thinking out here in your worship and idolizing of science?? Look carefully at the history and you see a very different picture of both science and education...enlightenment.

This knowledge and understanding of Democide is hardly ever covered in public schools and also in any media today. They ..like many ministers prefer people to be ignorant ..even of what the history records if you can ever find the history.

Be very careful about what your ministers teach or do not teach you and also what people of supposedly logic and reason try to teach or not teach you. Check up on them all.

Thanks,
Orangetom
edit on 20-11-2013 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 08:05 AM
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Ya, nobody is aware of the genocides committed by dictators the world over in the past century.....

But democide? not a widely used term, R. J. Rummel from the university of Hawaii.......and Alex Jones.......says it all really.

But to equate these mass killings to a non-belief in the Christian god........wreaks of desperation. The numbers are dropping, congregations dwindling....in this age of enlightenment, of knowledge, of the internet, of equality and the freedom of speech, such propaganda like the above post can be easily dismissed and refuted.

edit on 20-11-2013 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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Prezbo369
Ya, nobody is aware of the genocides committed by dictators the world over in the past century.....

But democide? not a widely used term, R. J. Rummel from the university of Hawaii.......and Alex Jones.......says it all really.

But to equate these mass killings to a non-belief in the Christian god........wreaks of desperation. The numbers are dropping, congregations dwindling....in this age of enlightenment, of knowledge, of the internet, of equality and the freedom of speech, such propaganda like the above post can be easily dismissed and refuted.

edit on 20-11-2013 by Prezbo369 because: (no reason given)



I dont think it wreaks of desperation. I say this because I knew before reading of R. J. Rummels work that something was very wrong with the concept of the unbelievers. Also something missing from the history. I had never seen anyone else speak of or doing any research on the subject.

I knew that in modern times the science of war and destruction had only accelerated. Even war on ones own people. This is clear just watching the nightly news.

I also knew about another type of war and destruction on ones own people called "Inflation" or more appropriately..."Depreciation." And this "Inflation" is easily done today by educated, enlightened, illuminated people in times of non redeemable paper money. History records this destruction over and over in the last 100 years..and in many nations and to the ruin of the people in these nations.

All of this is missing from the history books next to the importance of what it really is and bodes for a people.

As to numbers....the read of history as pertains to the Christian God is that numbers never mattered. From the Olde Testament times unto the New Testament times.

Numbers only matter to non believers...and to politicians.

And Politicians finance modern education in which certain facts and understandings are missing. Certain histories are also missing.

And once again..I stand by what I said about science. Science goes where the money is. And science..like politics..will often sell it's souls...and the souls of others to stay in business. This is obvious by how science operated in the communist nations as well as today in the Muslim nations...while many were or are killed and persecuted.

And those of us versed in it...know that politics will use and misuse the social sciences to get votes ..by creating "appearances" in the unconsciousness of the people...via the media et al.

And many people are now waking up to the concept that "Appearances" can be very different from the reality which sets in after an election. And I am talking about both political parties here. Or more than two if it is so in a nation.

But to do this..to see this ..one must needs be able to think and reason past their emotions..and instant gratification beliefs which is the bulk of what is taught to people today.

For now...Americans in the United States can afford to be ignorant of democide..but not for much longer. This is a carefully fostered and nurtured ignorance in America...behind our television and movie lives. But not for much longer as the money system collapses...and it will...under educated, illuminated, enlightened, scientific men...men of equality and understanding.
Many are beginning to wake up to the understanding that the political educational product is not as advertised. Even the Science behind this.

By the way...I did not know that Alex Jones spoke on Democide.
I dont watch or listen to his show...so this is news to me.
It was a poster on another blog which linked it to me some years ago.

I am also aware that most of the media...not spinning and looking out for us...will not cover democide next to the historical importance of understanding it. I find this absence to be a glaring omission.


Thanks,
Orangetom


edit on 20-11-2013 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2013 @ 01:27 PM
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But to equate these mass killings to a non-belief in the Christian god........wreaks of desperation. The numbers are dropping, congregations dwindling....in this age of enlightenment, of knowledge, of the internet, of equality and the freedom of speech, such propaganda like the above post can be easily dismissed and refuted.


I've had a couple of days to think about this and in so doing ..get my thoughts more together.

As per the article on Democide...the author R. J. Rummel states that 262 million people have been killed by their own governments...and in the last 100 years.

The last 100 years have been the time of Enlightened, Illuminated, Educated, wise men running things without the prejudice of religion to bind them to said religious dogmas as in the past. By this I mean secular leaders...secular believing peoples.

Yet in this 100 year span more people have been killed across the globe..in times of non war..and by their own governments...and at an obviously faster rate than in the previous centuries. This is clear by justs observing the numbers as well as the history.
When you know this you become very dubious about what is Enlightenment, and illumination..that it is not the product advertised.

We are often bombarded by documentaries like the History Channel or what we here call "The Hitler Channel." On that channel they often bombard you with the tolls from all these wars...but seldom menton the tolls from peacetime...between wars.

What is also very obvious is that there is a significant death toll of people killed by their own governments in the Communist nations..the Anti God nations where competition for ideas from the Church are not tolerated. This is where we find some of the highest peacetime death tolls in the last 100 years.

What I also find very interesting is that this view is missing from our public educations and I do not think this is accidental.
Almost no one I have run into knows about the concept or studies on Democide.

But these people can do a point spread and tell me about the Orange housewives.

I do not find this ignorance of democide to be enlightening, education, nor equality, nor illumination. It is also not freedom of speech if one does not know the history by which to comment on it. For it is obvious that these people have been censored..neutered in their thinking process. And I dont think this to be accidental but deliberate.

What I have also noted is that when you tell people about democide...they have little or no comment because it is disturbing to their television and movie education and comfort beliefs. They do not easily dismiss or refute it.

I showed R. J. Rummels article to a fellow who looked it up on his new fangled computer phone and he was greatly disturbed.
He had never heard of it.
I told him to bookmark it for future reference. He would be needing it when dealing with people who know how to do a point spread and talk about the orange housewives.


Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 21 2013 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by NoRegretsEver
 


As a Christian I don't consider myself "religious" but rather a person that has a relationship with the God of the Universe, Jesus Christ.



posted on Nov, 23 2013 @ 05:11 AM
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NoRegretsEver
This is NOT a dig on religious people, this is a question that I decided to ask, as there are so many religious threads, and I needed a place to ask it without derailing anyone's work.

So here it is. Should religious people be held responsible for the feelings of the non-religious? Now the reason why I ask, is that the teachings of religion, the stories, people, places, well... they are written in black and white. This is the same as a classroom all learning from the same book, they should all have the same idea, or at least understanding of the topic... right?

So when people are angered, or argumentative with a religious person or about religion in general, non religious folks cant sit around and yell at a book! That makes no sense. Most non religious people I know, including myself have read the bible, and have no real problem with the message.

We cant be mad at god, or jesus, so who could possibly be left?

In my opinion this would have to fall on those who choose to "spread" the word, and those that state claim to its inner teachings and then demolish the book, and teachings. There is no uprising of the corruption of the church, and I mean ANY church and there are countless of them robbing, lying, etc,.

I am agnostic, and you know why? Because I wont let man explain my spirituality. You know why? Because man is flawed. You know how I know? Because Ive seen it, and coincidentally the bible says the same, yet this is not mentioned or debated by those that claim to be closest to god.

Please let this discussion not get out of hand. Its sad I have to write that.

Peace, NRE.



OP,

A help, don't remain agnostic, trust Jesus' promise, He is God. Our Lord told Peter after making him leader
of the faith here on earth that Satan would not destroy His Church (Matt 16:18).

The Church, her teachings are Christ's teachings. Satan cannot destroy them no matter how he tries so
you can believe by God's authority the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the faith.


God bless you,


colbe



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