Should Religious People Be Held Responsible?

This is NOT a dig on religious people, this is a question that I decided to ask, as there are so many religious threads, and I needed a place to ask it without derailing anyone's work.

So here it is. Should religious people be held responsible for the feelings of the non-religious? Now the reason why I ask, is that the teachings of religion, the stories, people, places, well... they are written in black and white. This is the same as a classroom all learning from the same book, they should all have the same idea, or at least understanding of the topic... right?

So when people are angered, or argumentative with a religious person or about religion in general, non religious folks cant sit around and yell at a book! That makes no sense. Most non religious people I know, including myself have read the bible, and have no real problem with the message.

We cant be mad at god, or jesus, so who could possibly be left?

In my opinion this would have to fall on those who choose to "spread" the word, and those that state claim to its inner teachings and then demolish the book, and teachings. There is no uprising of the corruption of the church, and I mean ANY church and there are countless of them robbing, lying, etc,.

I am agnostic, and you know why? Because I wont let man explain my spirituality. You know why? Because man is flawed. You know how I know? Because Ive seen it, and coincidentally the bible says the same, yet this is not mentioned or debated by those that claim to be closest to god.

Please let this discussion not get out of hand. Its sad I have to write that.

Peace, NRE.

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


So what you are basically asking is if you should be allowed to channel your frustrations against a philosophy through those who espouse that philosophy?

Maybe it's Christianity or Islam or any other "ISM" that has drawn you to this conclusion, but should you be allowed to do the same thing? Didn't it bother you when it was done to you?

But no. Let's take it one step further. Let's pretend (like so many here do) that the world will be a better place once belief in God is eradicated. What will you do with us all? Exterminate us in gas chambers like the Nazi's did to the Jews? Behead us like the Muslims do to the Christians? Take our land like the Christians did during the crusades?

What gives you the moral high ground, while granting you the get out of jail free card at the same time?

EDIT TO ADD:

Should atheists be held responsible for their actions?

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


As ATS slides more and more into the Conservative Right wing model, the evangelical Christians are sure to follow because They mostly share the same mind set, agenda, politics and cosmology.

Everyone, not just Christians or the religious in general need to take responsibility for their thoughts, actions and the consequences of their behavior.

However it is very convienient to have a ready made scapgoat built into your religion....."the devil made me do it"

reply to post by DeadSeraph


So I dont know your game friend. Did you write this to agree or disagree with the topic, because you cant disagree with me, as the things you wrote were so off the wall that I think that maybe you are secretly sabotaging religion and religious people.

So Im going to go with you are the "knee jerk reaction" person and totally thought this was a religion bashing thread.

Or, you actually hate religion and you make outrageous claims like this to keep people off your track... hmmm

NRE.

reply to post by NoRegretsEver

Most non religious people I know, including myself have read the bible, and have no r_javascript:quote()eal problem with the message.
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This really is not true. Many parts of the bible are the most barbaric and disturbing thing I've ever read ..and It disturbs me that people base their life on it.

We cant be mad at god, or jesus, so who could possibly be left?

Well that depends on what God or what picture of God you've been taught to believe ...which one again?

I am agnostic, and you know why? Because I wont let man explain my spirituality. You know why? Because man is flawed.

Best and most honest, human statement one can make. I consider myself a very spiritual person , but when it comes down to the idiocy of religion, I feel a Christopher Hitchens bit*ch slap coming on.

Ok you had me until "No real problem with the message" see
every time i read something like that then i have to consider
that the person has not actually read the bible.

The book, even the new testament, condones owning slaves,
it also encourages you to follow a god that might ask you to
murder your own child and you are not suppose to say no.....

Even by those merits alone i can say, without a doubt that
the book is wrong and i have a huge issue with its message.

These books are violent, brutal and just plain cruel..... that
is what religion supports, whether they actively do these
things or not is one thing but they all believe in that or
other books which tell them those are ok things and i cannot
ignore that.

I blame the religious people for supporting and giving power
to the extremists among them, if not for their moral
and financial support those groups would be no real
threat at all. Problem is they can hide behind the benign
part of the religion and the protections given for a very
different reason.

I always put it like this, we can all the good of religion without
all the bad, its called being moral just for the sake of doing the
right thing and not for some grand prize that no one even knows
exists.

reply to post by bloodreviara


The "no real problem with the message" statement, is that I have no problem reading, and or understanding what it means, not that I agree with it.

The thread is about exactly what you wrote, except maybe that part, which I further explained, I thought it was clear, but after re-reading it, maybe I wasnt that clear. I hope that if anyone else took it that way, they can read this, so I dont have to edit my OP.


Peace, NRE.

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


You are A thinker... I like that.

To belong to a "Church" is a social thing. Those that need guidance and understanding in life seek out a place of belonging and acceptance. In order to be accepted and rank up within the community of the chosen place of worship... You dutifully put money if the offering plate when it is passed around to sustain and possibly increase your ranking in the church. It is your duty to support the preacher, Priest, Pastor.... the names are different but the meaning is the same... so that the leader can live free and tell you what direction in life to take. If you give money to the church (a non profit organization) the only return you get from your offering is a 1-3 or more in some cases,hours of preaching about how you need to comply and believe. It's all for the support of the church and send you a message to rely on the leader. Once in a while...some churches sell you on mission trips and send you out to help others. For the common good of helping others but essentially is only to make the church look good and gain more followers. In a church....that offering you make is only a monetary benefit to the church.. Your return is a false sense of security and understanding.

to be "spiritual" is a bit different. You know church is not the right avenue but still believe in something. You are searching for the answers but know a social support community is not the right fit for you.

We need more thinkers in todays society... not followers.

I'm having a little bit of a hard time figuring out your main question. Though it seems like your asking if religious folk should take responsibility for their actions, like a non-religious person would.

Well, I'd have to say that the religious usually don't take responsibility. I'll talk mostly about Christianity, since I've been around it much more, and know it better.

Usually people end up blaming their evil deeds on the devil. If they get the urge to commit adultery, or murder, etc. They blame the devil for corrupting their thoughts. It's an obvious cop-out to say the least. It's kinda like how your watching the show "cops" and a policeman find a bag of coc aine, and the accused person says "that's not mine, it's my friends" Or something similar. It's common for people to deny things, specifically when they are guilty of something. After all, that is what the devils job is said to be in the Christian faith; to corrupt the good-hearted people of the world to smite god.

Even Christians usually believe that the world is essentially out of their hands. They believe heavily on prophecies. Apparently god has a divine plan, and that plan eventually works up the the inevitable arrival of Jesus, and the Devil, to have yet another biblical fight. And of course the "good guys" are destined to win. Just like a story straight out of a comic book.

And that's one of my biggest beefs with religion. Instead of taking responsibility, they usually just go around rallying the other religious folks and discuss how badly Satan is destroying the world, and that the "End is nigh." They rather sit around and wait basically. They talk about it, and talk about, and look at the bible and try to find signs. They desperately want Jesus to come back and save us from ourselves. And more importantly, Satan. Since apparently Satan is the root cause of us living in a living hell...Literally. Though in fact, "Satan" has nothing to do with it. It's just humans taking advantage of other humans. It's been going on for thousands of years now. Far before Christianity came to be. And the religious have deemed it the work of Satan or demons. Rather than the simple ambition and free will of the common man.

From my experience, there is much more discussion, rather than action from the religious sect. But to be fair, there's not much else action from anywhere else. And it's obvious since most systems we humans have today are either failing, or in decline. And nobody wants to fix it. People rather deny their impact and shift the blame, rather than actually try to fix it, regardless of who did it and what they preach.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


You are mentally confused... Comparing Atheists to Hitler and Nazis?
Utterly ridiculous.

A few of us have grown beyond that type of mindset.
A few of us remember History as is was because we were there. (didn't need the internet or a rewritten book to tell us)

And a Select few of us were born with a moral compass...

I don't smoke dope, hate drugs and love Philosophy and science.

No Atheist is going to behead you...you moron. An Atheist believes in science, peace and understanding.

Unlike the "church" who believes in support and control.

Well I certainly believe in freedom of thought, belief, and the practice of it. However, I'm opposed to the organization of it to be utilized as a control mechanism.

Everybody should be held responsible to social - law - but religion should weigh no merit in the judgement of ones actions. In other words - you can't use the defense of killing your spouse for infedelity because your religious text says it's okay. You kill another human being - you face the same law as everyone else. It doesn't matter what you believe.

Here's another. West bozo's - I think what they do is psychological abuse. Protesting at funerals? Where does their rights end, and the mourners begin? Don't they have the right to respect in a time of loss? Say goodbye? With out a bunch spewing hate and judgement.

So individual people should be held for actual wrongdoing. We've just fallen away from respecting one another's feelings, honoring customs, priding ourselves on community. Entertainment isn't going to a social function like church to plan the next barbeque for the home teams baseball league. Or help out with a mother day's banquent for the mothers of the community. People are falling away from religion - and I do think it is because of rigidity, judgement, and a refusal to grow and change.

Not to mention the corruption and greed found among the organized religions. That itself also keeps people at home on Sunday, reading the Bible or Torah or whatever - instead of going o a gathering to do it as a community of like minded individuals. Still a believer - but one that worships in the privacy of ones own home

CdT.

DeadSeraph
reply to post by NoRegretsEver

 

Should atheists be held responsible for their actions?

edit on 8-11-2013 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

Well as far as weird and silly things go thats a classic.

Yes, people should be held responsible for thier actions. What alternative do you propose?

Wow

Atheists are singular and dont congregate en masse to claim their non god the winner, too.

Should brussel sprout eaters be helr responsible for their actions?

Oo

bloodreviara
Ok you had me until "No real problem with the message" see
every time i read something like that then i have to consider
that the person has not actually read the bible.

The book, even the new testament, condones owning slaves,
it also encourages you to follow a god that might ask you to
murder your own child and you are not suppose to say no.....

Oh dear me not this again.

The NT does not encourage slave ownership, show me the verse

Isaac was never going to be sacrificed, where is the evidence of such.
The OT was clear and the lad was always safe. Jehovah was not a human sacrificing God, you have no understanding of what you read.

As for the OP, sadly I dont understand the question.

Would add if i could

livinglifeseekingtruth2
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

No Atheist is going to behead you...you moron. An Atheist believes in science, peace and understanding.

Unlike the "church" who believes in support and control.

Tell that to Mao and Stalin and pol Pot and...and...

You called the poster a moron, hmmmm

CirqueDeTruth
Well I certainly believe in freedom of thought, belief, and the practice of it. However, I'm opposed to the organization of it to be utilized as a control mechanism.

Everybody should be held responsible to social - law - but religion should weigh no merit in the judgement of ones actions. In other words - you can't use the defense of killing your spouse for infedelity because your religious text says it's okay. You kill another human being - you face the same law as everyone else. It doesn't matter what you believe.

Here's another. West bozo's - I think what they do is psychological abuse. Protesting at funerals? Where does their rights end, and the mourners begin? Don't they have the right to respect in a time of loss? Say goodbye? With out a bunch spewing hate and judgement.

So individual people should be held for actual wrongdoing. We've just fallen away from respecting one another's feelings, honoring customs, priding ourselves on community. Entertainment isn't going to a social function like church to plan the next barbeque for the home teams baseball league. Or help out with a mother day's banquent for the mothers of the community. People are falling away from religion - and I do think it is because of rigidity, judgement, and a refusal to grow and change.

Not to mention the corruption and greed found among the organized religions. That itself also keeps people at home on Sunday, reading the Bible or Torah or whatever - instead of going o a gathering to do it as a community of like minded individuals. Still a believer - but one that worships in the privacy of ones own home

CdT.

The ones that were willing and ready to colonize the USA were sold on a lie.
They sought out a place free of religious persecution and the right to speak freely. For a while it worked...

But some idiot had to sail back and tell others about how things were working and progressing.

In my History book I learned how Columbus was sent off the edge of the world the kings and queens believed was flat as a pancake. they got tired of his years of begging for the financial means to prove his theory was right. Pretty much decided to throw money at him to make him go away... He was going to die sailing off the edge to his death right? Not sure if that is what the current generation of students are being taught.

And then it was "game on" to destroy the thinkers and scientists who dared to find a better way of life. Anyone remember the Boston Tea party? You know the one where a bunch of people got together and literally dumped ships full of tea into the harbor to protest British taxes? Anyone learn about the Salem Witch trials? Many of you young ones have not.... you are just being turned into mindless robots in order to conform and comply for the better good...

borntowatch

livinglifeseekingtruth2
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

No Atheist is going to behead you...you moron. An Atheist believes in science, peace and understanding.

Unlike the "church" who believes in support and control.

Tell that to Mao and Stalin and pol Pot and...and...

You called the poster a moron, hmmmm

It is a sad fact that some are born broken... the above, and possibly you.... are a perfect example.
Just a bunch of dying butterflies looking for a safe place to land while plotting and hurting others in their death spiral.

Hmmmm.... Their is a difference between the three... Those born with a moral compass, those seeking a direction in life, and a few born with absolutely nothing. Those born with nothing go on to hurt others in an attempt to feel... something they are lacking. I can't imagine how it must be like to lack the ability to feel empathy. But you might.... I feel sorry for you... you might have been born with messed up neurons.

reply to post by NoRegretsEver


Actually you can get mad at God so to speak. re read it again....

livinglifeseekingtruth2


It is a sad fact that some are born broken... the above, and possibly you.... are a perfect example.
Just a bunch of dying butterflies looking for a safe place to land while plotting and hurting others in their death spiral.

Hmmmm.... Their is a difference between the three... Those born with a moral compass, those seeking a direction in life, and a few born with absolutely nothing. Those born with nothing go on to hurt others in an attempt to feel... something they are lacking. I can't imagine how it must be like to lack the ability to feel empathy. But you might.... I feel sorry for you... you might have been born with messed up neurons.

Well I believe everyone was born broken
Me a possible example? aint no possibilities at all, its a fact.

Butterflies aside, some have a disease thats stops them empathising, some grow up without learning empathy and some are so broken by the world that they become overly empathetic to all, at their own detriment.
Some just try hard to show love, sadly as the nature of the world is broken, so is the love.

There is no moral compass when opportunity arises, it human nature.

We are all selfish

DeadSeraph
reply to post by NoRegretsEver

 

So what you are basically asking is if you should be allowed to channel your frustrations against a philosophy through those who espouse that philosophy?

Maybe it's Christianity or Islam or any other "ISM" that has drawn you to this conclusion, but should you be allowed to do the same thing? Didn't it bother you when it was done to you?

But no. Let's take it one step further. Let's pretend (like so many here do) that the world will be a better place once belief in God is eradicated. What will you do with us all? Exterminate us in gas chambers like the Nazi's did to the Jews? Behead us like the Muslims do to the Christians? Take our land like the Christians did during the crusades?

What gives you the moral high ground, while granting you the get out of jail free card at the same time?

EDIT TO ADD:

Should atheists be held responsible for their actions?

edit on 8-11-2013 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

What threat are atheists to you ? Does science scare you ? True spirituality is a quest , not a defiance . ...Carl Sagan
"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."