Legal Experts: Even TOTALLY INNOCENT People Should Avoid Talking to Law Enforcement

reply to post by Eryiedes


When I see an individual, or group, acting in a less-than-considerate manner, I begin to wonder what is the impetus for such behavior? I do not immediately judge them as being "bad," "ignorant," or "evil."  Perhaps an individual is having a bad day, a recent traumatic event, "trouble" at home, etc. But, when this behavior is common, ongoing, and perhaps institutionally encouraged, that's indeed a problem.

I know a few police officers. One attends my church, and he is a nice guy who believes in helping others. The other... I would not turn my back toward. He is always sizing me up, giving me this "you must be, or have been, up to something" attitude. When I first met the latter (he'd just moved in across the street), I told him I was going out of town and if he saw a moving van show up at my house while I was gone, it's not me. His reply: "If I see anything like that, I'll just kill'em." His immature and cavalier response bothered me. 

There are a few things to consider which may contribute to law enforcement having an attitude:
1. A lot of people hate cops. This can be due to past encounters (tickets, party raids, unequal applications, etc.) Many disdain authority, and being told what to do.
2. Police encounter and interact with the worst aspects of society. This can take a toll on an individual.
3. Stress. On-the-job, peer interaction, and family relations. 
4. Crime never stops. It never goes away, and never will.

All being said, I do keep a distance from the police. I am usually shocked when an officer pleasantly initiates small talk in line at a connivence store or at the mall. In these cases, it usually an older officer (40s +). The younger ones are flat-out mean.

My mother told me something her father told many years ago. Never make eye contact with the police, or ever do anything to draw attention to yourself. That's good advice, and I have said the same to my children.

Blaine91555
There is no such thing as a Sovereign and everyone should protect themselves from that scam by researching it and educating themselves so they don't get sucked in by the scam artists pushing it.

My research is showing similar instances of fraud after fraud.
As I said, I am not a sovereign and do not advocate their position.
Magna-Carta and the Constitution are incompatible IMO.

That list starts in 2010, but this crap goes back into the 1980's I'm sure.

It goes back further if you consider the UK & Commonwealth nations and the stories seem just as negative.
My only point with their video was in demonstrating an officer being prevented from using the phrases they are trained to say to get a citizen to waive his rights. I'll post a few non-sovereign examples of the same tactic at work after I have had coffee.

I know and have known people who are constantly having trouble and complaining about cops, but they cause it themselves.

This is also very true...far more than most will admit.

Only a fool would want to live in a society without law enforcement IMO, but it does need to be policed itself I agree.

Agreed but a police state isn't law enforcement and this is what we have.
As for trusting the police to police the police (that was almost like saying Beetlejuice or Candyman three times fast!) is this truely the smartest course of action in a police state?

-Amitabha-

reply to post by wrkn4livn


when you live in a country where the system is already ingrained into its constituents, its constituents act automatically without any kind of individual conscience or morality anymore. people who are not accustomed to this system will clearly see that they are up against a very big monster that it is impossible to fight it and the only rational response is to runaway far from it, very very far.

by system, i meant the entire judiciary/law enforcement system combined.

people's posts here seem to think that lawyers' advice to not to talk to LOE (even innocent people) is their way of making more money by subliminally telling everyone to hire a lawyer when confronted by an LOE. in some way, that's true, but the aim is because it continually feeds the system. LOEs jail anyone to feed to the system, it is their automatic response. even if you don't hire a lawyer, you will be assigned a state attorney wherein the expenses still return back to the ordinary people in the form of taxes.

the system is supposed to serve the people, but it has become the other way around. it has become so monstrously big that it needs even the "blood of the innocents" to continue to operate. every action that takes place requires some kind of bill/payment that circulates throughout the system, its constituents are well aware of this but because they depend on the system they continue to act even though at some point it doesn't feel right anymore.

Greetings,

An immigration check point is different from a pedestrian just walking down a street but this is a more appropriate set of examples of the same mechanism in action. That of denying unconstitutional searches.

(This compliation is better than posting a dozen individual videos but I would be negligent not to point out this doesn't represent what happens when such acts of civil disobediance go horribly wrong. We all know how those cases end up...)

The Top U.S. Checkpoint Refusals Of 2012:

www.youtube.com...

It's also worth noting that passengers in a vehicle aren't subject to the "licence, registration and identification" request as is the vehicles driver and in these examples even the driver still has rights in the case of an unconstitutional stop & search.
I point out that the phrases like:

"Am I being detained?"

"Am I free to go?"

"What is the probable cause?"

Are consistant in all of them.
It almost seems "rock-paper-scissors" in nature.
Knowing your rights is key.

What Happens If You Don't Cooperate At Border Check Points?

www.youtube.com...

"Pull over there."

That's another of the key phrases used by federal officers to circumvent a citizens rights.
When people forget their rights, we get New Mexico happen where three cases of molestation and 14 hour rectal probing sessions (which have all had lawsuits files on behalf of them) in less than a month have been reported...and the month isn't even up yet.

-Amitabha-

reply to post by Eryiedes


What about when they say,"I'm conducting an investigation", when you ask to leave?

FlyingFox
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

What about when they say,"I'm conducting an investigation", when you ask to leave?

An "investigation", by definition, is based on probable cause so if he hasn't said: "You're free to go" then you shouldn't go anywhere. The language while deceptive is VERY specific.

"Under what probable cause?"

Would be the only responce to that I imagine. By law he must inform you to the nature of the charge.
If he fails to provide one...
All of these measures hinge on the person in question videotaping the incident. Without this, it's simply his word against yours and police officers are under no obligation to tell the truth unless on the witness stand.

NYPD Cops caught Hunting citizens during Thanksgiving Holiday:

www.youtube.com...

-Amitabha-

reply to post by hknudzkknexnt


I'm not religious but that is not the corner stone of most messianic stories, that we always end killing them... freaking sons or emissaries of gods, let alone normal sane Joes...

reply to post by Eryiedes


I don`t know about the rest of you but I have know this for years. Stay away from the cops at all cost but matter that country you find yourself. I avoid the cops even here in Japan. Go to enough labor rallies or protest and the cops here in Tokyo will take notice of you. I am involved in so much stuff I am sure they know who I am. I have had enough shouting matches with the cops here for that to be true.

Anti-Capitalist resistance have been building up again here in Japan after a long time of total conformity to the state.

reply to post by Eryiedes

What top legal `experts` are you talking about? Yes the States have gotten to such an extent that I think twice about visiting but I have Relatives in Maryland and Arizona that I like to visit and I do miss Florida and have to get to Comicon and Vidcon in Sandiago one of these years. I cant`t stand the education system down there and was too afraid to enroll in the Canadien forces due to the people I know hurt by U.S. friendly fire but there are good points as well. So I wonder what `experts` these are and how expert they are?

nergalbanda1
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

What top legal `experts` are you talking about?

So it's your contention that Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, who headed the Nuremberg trials from 1945-46, is not a top legal expert?
Interesting.

-Amitabha-

There was a DUI/OVI check point on my road about a month ago. When the cop stopped me I asked him how it was legal to do such. I should say I know the cop personally, he was honest with me. He basically said because they were handing out pamphlets about DUI stats and what citizens can do about it, it was considered an educational thing.
I am so flip flopped on this. I personally hate people who drink / use and drive and feel that there should be strict consequences, but at the same time, i feel that they are doing something illegal with checkpoints.

Greetings,

Here is another example of how to act when being detained illegally.
This time for filming aircraft from a public park.
The officers clearly lied about the land being "private property" and were doing everything they could, in their power, to get the man to waive his rights.
The man however stayed true to his convictions and was released.
Yet another example of how lawful civil disobediance protected a citizen from unlawful detention.
Had he been compliant, they would have likely lied again (after finding nothing) and fabricated some trumped up charge so he could be remanded to court...if for no other reason than he'd become a headache for them.
First they request compliance.
Then they demand it.
Finally, they use threats but in the end....(unless you are dealing with a psychopath)...if you haven't broken the law, they'll have to release you.
Police will do their level best to get you to compromise/waive your rights so one must be very careful to watch what they say and do. Tense situations like these are where people run the greatest risk of harm from an overzealous LEO.

How to deal with illegal police detainment:

www.youtube.com...

I will be sure to post more later.

-Amitabha-

reply to post by Eryiedes


I don't know if it has been posted in this thread already but below is a link to a 50 min video by Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defense attorney explains succinctly and clearly why to NEVER EVER talk to the police.

www.youtube.com...

This is imo something that should be required viewing by everybody.

Eryiedes

rickymouse
I don't keep track of what I do if it is not important, that is a waste of braincells.

This is the EXACTLY the reason why you shouldn't speak to the police.
Not only do people not pay attention to what's around them but they pay even less attention to what they SAY as well.
Your own words CAN and WILL be used against you even when you believe you have nothing to hide...even when you are completely innocent...even when you think nothing can go wrong.

(Even your quote, likely now stored in an NSA computer WILL be used against you if this is what the state needs to contradict your testimony or statement.)

This is what all these data collection centres are for. Eventually, whether you believe it or not, your own words WILL be used against you. In a country with more laws than the population of a large city, this is inevitable.
The videos on the website demonstrate this with example after example after example of why this is fallacious thinking.
SCOTUS Judge Robert Jackson is adamant on this topic and he's forgotten more about law than we will ever know.
I wish you the best of luck.

-Amitabha-

edit on 7-11-2013 by Eryiedes because: Typo

I would agree with this, as a UK member i cannot vouch for any other country. My philosophy has been always to tell the truth and you'll be OK. That was until August this year when i was accused of something and now will be in court early 2014 facing prison time at a cost of 10k to me which i will never be able to reclaim. My trust in the Police is now a complete fat ZERO, advice is, don't say anything, always get a legal representative even when you know you are innocent, trust me, your words will be twisted to suit ....... in the UK, never sign the arresting officer's notebook unless you read it through first and agree ...... in my case, and because i trusted LEO, and was in shock i signed his pad, its now being used against me ........ written notes do not show the context, prosecution can take your words completely out of context and make it something it is not. Apparently, in the UK and Human Rights etc everyone is entitled to a fair trial ........ in my case ......... only if you can afford it, i will reiterate, i am innocent but i have to find 10k legal bills or i will be representing myself in court ..... Fair?

g146541
NEVER talk to any official of any sort.
Even to give a witness statement, have an attorney write it for you.
Anything you say can and WILL be used against you.

SO TRUE.

The cops have the Judges on their side. The cops have the cuffs and the guns.
To a Judge a cop's testimony is golden, cops never lie.

I had the opportunity to do business with a cop many years ago. My manager pulled me into his office and said to me, "What are you doing!? They can take you out to a field and beat you, then turn around and make it look like it was your fault." While that didn't happen, the business relationship did not end on a positive note. Cops don't believe they have to pay for business services. They expect to receive business services for free in exchange for 'protection'.

10 years later I had three cops in my garage questioning me. THREE of them. I asked them for a search warrant; Nope. I asked the to leave; Nope. They continued to question me and told me "this isn't going to go away." I couldn't get past them, they were blocking the door into my home. After about 10 minutes they finally let me past them and I walked into my home and closed the door on them. They went back to the police station and wrote up a false police report that had me making statements that I never made. They lied. Three of them against one of me.

My neighbor wrote a statement that supported me and the fact the they were lying. I took into court with me. The Judge wouldn't accept it, even though my neighbor was outside the courtroom that day, ready to testify.

It doesn't matter whether you talk to the cops or not. They will write up their story (report) with the angle they want. The truth doesn't matter to the cops. What matters to them is, "What's in it for me?" They write their reports to obtain the biggest pay-offs, promotions, and political favors.


Cops always have the best dope, because they confiscate.

reply to post by FlyingFox


The cops have the gun and the cuffs. The Judge is in their pocket. Don't ask to leave, just leave if you can. If you can't leave, answer every question with "I don't know" and "I don't recall" and "I didn't notice".

reply to post by BurbGirl378


The cops will also use people who don't like you, as long as they are willing to lie in court about the nature of any interaction.

In my case, the cops announced to people who I had civil court issues with (zoning, ugh) they were out to get me..."had problems with me". The police outright took sides and encouraged ~proxy~ violence against me, even though I was party to a civil case which protects you from retaliation just like a victim or witness. Never mind the sparkling merits of my civil case.

So, I ended up with a misdemeanor II, reckless endangerment, for splashing someone with my car. I even had an inciting a riot charge that didn't stick. I'm running a 10:1 win-loose rate with the local cops. The latest was that I handed out pamphlets disparaging toward the victims son (an adult), and that somehow might have violated my no-contact w/victim probation. When, in fact, I was in a private home of a friend I shared an old newspaper article about an incident involving the son, a priest, underage drinking and a fatality.

A false report was sent to my PO and I got a "warning" based on either the "victim" or the cops lying to him. It's either true or false. If false, who is sending out false reports? I feel like making a misconduct report! I may wait until my 1yr probation is over.

The icing is my research partner and I got the Chief fired for taking untaxed money for cop security guard jobs, and might go to jail. His dad is a legendary asshole cop from when we were kids. The Asst Chief is now chief in the next town, and he's going down too. My friend just won mayor last week there!!!

Back in my town, I have the secretary-zoning officer on a SWORN Falsification charge, a felony! I'm waiting to work with the AG on it. This is the PA county where judges were putting kids in jail to get $1m kickbacks, Luzerne.

I have stories upon stories. I should write a book. I did a couple of Sunshine Act Pro-Se and guess what, I was lightyears beyond everyone in the courtroom, but there was no way I could win. The local judge whacked me with $2k in costs for filing frivolously....even though he miss-counted the 30-day statute of limitations. I actually snuck in 2 sets of SA charges w/in 30 days because of how the meetings cycle, 1st monday of the month. Although I failed, for some reason the town immediately changed their meeting comment policy to come into compliance with the law, the allegations I made.

So, here and now the town is dealing with someone determined, numb and very experienced. I make them cry at public meetings, aka their private club...I let it spew like Mussolini from the balcony. Once, the chairwoman asked me to "stand up to address council". I told her she should stand, it'd be more appropriate.

This is the same person who threatened me the first meeting I attended, saying I may get sued if I "slandered" employees (criticized them). Fthat, they are public persons. I said if she didn't like it she could go wait in the hall. They all put their name on a ballot or a job application, no one if forcing them to be there. I sit there and loudly make liars out of them, over and over. They have no idea what hit them. I was told that this was NOT the right venue for complaints....LOL.

But yeah, local cops operate to gain political favours and the local or county judge helps them. In my case the DA took a case against me that almost no one else in the county would ever be prosecuted for.

Greetings,

Here is another example of how to handle the police...this time at a suspicionless DUI checkpoint.
Once more...knowing your rights and excersizing them is the key to your freedom.



This gentleman obviously knows his stuff and has the cajones to stand up for them.
Notice how many times the officer and even his sergeant try to misrepresent the authority granted to them?
Notice how the encounter ended?

www.duicheckpoints.net...

(Quote from article)

However, as several dissenting judges pointed out, the Constitution doesn’t make room for exceptions and, whether beneficial or not, DUI checkpoints are a clear violation of the Fourth Amendment, forcing drivers to participate in “suspicionless investigatory seizures.”

Knowledge is the most valuable weapon anyone can have.
Spread the word.

-Amitabha-

reply to post by Eryiedes


I watched a pretty interesting video that pertains to this issue we Americans are currently experiencing. It was a recruitment video for a resistance of sorts; but it was pretty disturbing to see the amount of recorded police brutality that exists and to hear the stories that coincide.

Anyway, the most disturbing part in my opinion was how out of our control we have aloud this to get. I'll try to find the video, but I'm too tired at the moment.

One of the main points to it was that there is very little we can do about it, without really doing something about it. If you follow the proper channels to "complain" about an issue with a police officer, you are supposed to walk into the police station, ask for a form, fill it out, and turn it back into the police station. A credible media company setup several secretly recorded attempts to do just this and were severely harassed for doing so; in some cases even being followed out of the building and verbally assaulted/threatened.

Eryiedes
Greetings,

Here is another example of how to handle the police...this time at a suspicionless DUI checkpoint.
Once more...knowing your rights and excersizing them is the key to your freedom.

This gentleman obviously knows his stuff and has the cajones to stand up for them.
Notice how many times the officer and even his sergeant try to misrepresent the authority granted to them?
Notice how the encounter ended?


-Amitabha-

Wow, I am truly inspired and in aw... Unfortunately my confidence isn't very high in the judicial system and is even less in the professionalism of law enforcement personnel. Despite their attempts to misrepresent the facts (and I believe this to be mostly due to ignorance as opposed to arrogance), I give the police credit for their professionalism. Despite the camera in their face, they could have gotten away with handling this situation much worse then they chose to.

Brass balls my friend, brass balls...