Why Won’t the West Defend Middle Eastern Christians?

WarminIndy
reply to post by wildtimes

 

There is one thing though that people don't know or understand about Israel, in their law they guarantee freedom of religion for all religions.

So as they play the game of "Zionist conspriacies", they aren't really being truthful about their own representation in the Israeli government. Yes, Muslims are in the Knesset.

History of Israel's Constitution
List of Arabs in the Knesset

Zionism is a secular government, one of which Muslims partake in Israel. There was even Muslims on their Supreme Court, interesting.

The Knesset

Yes there are Muslims in the Israeli government but they still don't have the same rights as the Zionist in Israel. If they did then the Muslims wouldn't get thrown out of government meetings when they disagree with the Zionist.

Well, I think one of the reasons is that many people are actively discouraged from personal exploration and action from a very early age. Even in our education system, we are taught "what to learn," only learning the scientific method in later years. "What we learn" is even frequently outdated by the time a child graduates high school. But, I dont think what is learned directly is really what is being taught, more indoctrination.

It creates a pattern of feeling victimized, and getting rid of personal responsibility (since that supercedes perceived victimization).

All that said, I think the best course of actions is to get our act straight locally, then spread it out through technology. So, in this way, the "missionary" work could essentially be sending technology and then IT support.

I think the biggest trick is in teaching people how to fish rather than simply giving them some meat.

On a note made in the thread, I do not think the society we live in (and have lived in) is an inevitability of the human experience. There are better ways that would satisfy both need and greed to a greater extent than is possible using our current cultural paradigm.

reply to post by wildtimes


A world living in a truly Christlike state would be nice wouldn't it?

It would satisfy leftists in that it would look almost like the perfect socialist Utopia they want. Everyone would happily share and share alike of the fruits of their labors and everyone would happily work hard to produce. There would be no accounting totals kept for when one neighbors fell short through no fault of his own. And the right would be happy because it would all be voluntary. You would not be compelled to enter in and you would feel free to give as was needed with no one confiscating to redistribute or feeling envious or being hateful if you happened to produce more than they in a given season.

But here we are saddled with human nature which is riddled with flaws and too many don't bother to fight them.

buster2010

WarminIndy
reply to post by wildtimes

 

There is one thing though that people don't know or understand about Israel, in their law they guarantee freedom of religion for all religions.

So as they play the game of "Zionist conspriacies", they aren't really being truthful about their own representation in the Israeli government. Yes, Muslims are in the Knesset.

History of Israel's Constitution
List of Arabs in the Knesset

Zionism is a secular government, one of which Muslims partake in Israel. There was even Muslims on their Supreme Court, interesting.

The Knesset

Yes there are Muslims in the Israeli government but they still don't have the same rights as the Zionist in Israel. If they did then the Muslims wouldn't get thrown out of government meetings when they disagree with the Zionist.

Well Buster, when you have people who do scream about beheading others, then maybe they should get thrown out?

No, Israel guarantees in their law that all religions are free and equal. Why do you think a lot of Palestinians are going to Israel? They have jobs there, they make money there and they can freely worship there. But, can a Jew or a Christian go to Palestine and be equal and free there? No.

Now, let's also look at this, can you, as a non-Muslim enter the city of Mecca? No, you may not. In 2013, you cannot enter into a city, in a country that you have to get permission from the king of Saudi Arabia to even enter in the first place.

And you have a problem with Muslims getting tossed out of meeting in Israel? Tell me, can a Zionist go to Mecca? Kentucky Fried Chicken can, but not a Zionist..or a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or an atheist, or and agnostic.

In fact, in order to even enter Mecca as a Muslim, you have to get a paper signed by your local imam in your local mosque that verifies that you have taken the Shahada and you are a practicing Muslim. So, do you agree that's a little extreme? And these are the same people who make the Zionist conspiracies...they can't let a Jew into Mecca, but they can represent Islam in Israel. So what's the problem?

reply to post by Serdgiam


Thanks for your thoughts. Very refreshing. I, too, hold out that hope that we can, from a grassroots level, do what's right by each other and our planet.

Hope your project is going well.

reply to post by wildtimes

I don't see how the explanation you suggest, based on the attitude towards israel, works as a reason for western states to hold back on protecting Christians in Muslim countries.

I suggest the real reason is more pragmatic. Western states are secular enough to be more interested in the practical needs of diplomacy than they are in religious interests.
In the case of Muslim countries, the standard Foreign Office/State Department line of thinking is going to be "We've already got enough reasons for Muslim countries to be alienated from us, let's not add another one unnecessarily".
So they will be inclined to turn a blind eye to Christian complaints.

By way of analogy; missionaries trying to work in British India in Victorian times often found that the enthusiastic support of the people at home was not matched by the attitude of the authorities on the spot, who would have preferred them to stay away.
This was because the passions stirred up by missionary work made the business of running the place much more complicated.
Practical politicians do not necessarily have the same priorities as religious people.

reply to post by ketsuko

A world living in a truly Christlike state would be nice wouldn't it?

It would satisfy leftists in that it would look almost like the perfect socialist Utopia they want. Everyone would happily share and share alike of the fruits of their labors and everyone would happily work hard to produce. There would be no accounting totals kept for when one neighbors fell short through no fault of his own. And the right would be happy because it would all be voluntary. You would not be compelled to enter in and you would feel free to give as was needed with no one confiscating to redistribute or feeling envious or being hateful if you happened to produce more than they in a given season.

But here we are saddled with human nature which is riddled with flaws and too many don't bother to fight them.

Exactly.

Thanks very much for that 'vision'. I share it with you...but yes, too many don't bother. As witnessed by one of the early respondents above, "we don't care."

The West made seven attempts to "protect Christians in the Holy Land"- it kept ending badly so finally we just gave up almost a thousand years ago. It was probably one of the better decisions in the history of Western Civilization.

Besides, what could we actually DO about most of the messes in the world? It's not a matter of stopping a national agenda- we can't just blow up some infrastructure and leave them a failed state and say they can't hurt us anymore. We're talking about a platoon of cops on every street corner from Timbuktu to Kandahar- we couldn't declare everlasting peace and alliance with every industrialized nation on the planet, all agree to deploy all of our armed forces for peace keeping with nothing held back for aggression or defense against one another, and we still wouldn't have the manpower to enforce order and civility at any time in the next generation.

It's not a simple matter of an evil agenda to be stopped. People are going to respond to their circumstances, and the circumstances are that most people are completely left behind by the modern world- they don't have a secure livelihood, any guarantee against starvation or disease, or the physical security to build up something for themselves without having it taken from them.

Did you ever wonder why all the criminals move to places like Detroit? Wouldn't they do better if they moved where the rich people live and steal from them? Obviously they don't move to places like Detroit, nor do they start out as criminals- but if you dropped me in one of those places where there isn't enough to go around, same as the locals my only hope of surviving would be to find a weapon and a group of similar people who are willing to do bad stuff to make sure they aren't the ones who suffer.

So maybe, if there was at least some minimal access to food, water, sanitation, transportation, communication for everyone world wide, you could seriously reduce the amount of horrible stuff going on- not completely eliminate it, but it would do considerably more for the situation than any military intervention could.

But what would happen if we uplifted the desperate around the world? They wouldn't be desperate anymore- they'd be able to afford bigger dreams. If a guy isn't desperate for the dollar he is gonna feed his family on that day he can haggle over price- before long everyone might want the same standard of living as us, or at least want us to meet them somewhere in the middle as equals. Eventually some of us might end up working for them... all perfectly fair and not necessarily unpleasant in any way- but what percentage of Americans is actually ready to go down that road, and what percentage of the wealth and political power in America does that willing minority control?

Why don't we help them? Cause we're happy with things the way they are. And we're all going to hell if there is one.

wildtimes
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Thanks for your thoughts. Very refreshing. I, too, hold out that hope that we can, from a grassroots level, do what's right by each other and our planet.

I think so too. In fact, as I have said many times, it would even benefit the greedy more than the current way of doing things. Its a paradox in that way, but if we look at people as "resources to be exploited" in the same way that global corporations do... well, they arent managing their resources in a way that can give them the most profit. The paradox comes in because in using this "resource" with the greatest efficacy, we have to enable individuals to contribute through incentive, equality, and a meeting of basic needs.

Hope your project is going well.

Its going very well. Since the sites I frequent do not allow "recruitment," it remains a solo project. But, hopefully once the framework of the foundation is laid, others can start building upon it for themselves. We will find out!

reply to post by The Vagabond

Why don't we help them? Cause we're happy with things the way they are. And we're all going to hell if there is one.

Ooooh! Harsh.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Western states are secular enough to be more interested in the practical needs of diplomacy than they are in religious interests.

Yes, Western states are secular.

The article was, I believe, directed at the CHRISTIANS in the West. I don't think it was accusing ALL of the west of being indifferent or inactive. It was calling on other Christians to help Christians in dire straits.

The sister thread to this one talks about How Shariah, an Intended Compass for Peace, Became a Tool of Oppression. Zealous, greedy clerics use uneducated Muslims to shore up their own power; Sharia Law was turned from the "peaceful" tenets of the Kuran into a tool for oppression. DELIBERATELY.

It works both ways. And all over the globe, the never-ending tug of war between the Jews, the Muslims, and the Christians is making things SO MUCH WORSE. SO BAD, in fact, that we ALL shudder for fear of what might occur if people don't get their sh#t together and start acting like COMPASSIONATE HUMAN BEINGS.

We HAVE the ability to be compassionate; those who don't so much by nature can be TAUGHT compassion.

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, the Western Secular States cannot justifiably defend members of one "faith" in another country from their "enemy" faith in the same country -- that belongs to the faithful to take care of. If secular states do that, they become no longer secular, but are involving religion WITH politics.

Now if only they'd stop the rampant greed of the ruthless Corporate Vampires, it'd be good. But Capitalism is the flip side of Faith - and I don't see when, if ever, the twain shall meet willingly. Sickening.

WarminIndy

buster2010

WarminIndy
reply to post by wildtimes

 

There is one thing though that people don't know or understand about Israel, in their law they guarantee freedom of religion for all religions.

So as they play the game of "Zionist conspriacies", they aren't really being truthful about their own representation in the Israeli government. Yes, Muslims are in the Knesset.

History of Israel's Constitution
List of Arabs in the Knesset

Zionism is a secular government, one of which Muslims partake in Israel. There was even Muslims on their Supreme Court, interesting.

The Knesset

Yes there are Muslims in the Israeli government but they still don't have the same rights as the Zionist in Israel. If they did then the Muslims wouldn't get thrown out of government meetings when they disagree with the Zionist.

Well Buster, when you have people who do scream about beheading others, then maybe they should get thrown out?

No, Israel guarantees in their law that all religions are free and equal. Why do you think a lot of Palestinians are going to Israel? They have jobs there, they make money there and they can freely worship there. But, can a Jew or a Christian go to Palestine and be equal and free there? No.

Now, let's also look at this, can you, as a non-Muslim enter the city of Mecca? No, you may not. In 2013, you cannot enter into a city, in a country that you have to get permission from the king of Saudi Arabia to even enter in the first place.

And you have a problem with Muslims getting tossed out of meeting in Israel? Tell me, can a Zionist go to Mecca? Kentucky Fried Chicken can, but not a Zionist..or a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or an atheist, or and agnostic.

In fact, in order to even enter Mecca as a Muslim, you have to get a paper signed by your local imam in your local mosque that verifies that you have taken the Shahada and you are a practicing Muslim. So, do you agree that's a little extreme? And these are the same people who make the Zionist conspiracies...they can't let a Jew into Mecca, but they can represent Islam in Israel. So what's the problem?

You need to get up to date on the news because the Muslims getting thrown out had nothing with anyone being beheaded. It had to do with the Zionist wanting to take control of the temple mount. And these were government meetings not town hall meetings.

Has Mecca ever announced freedom of religion? Nope And what other religions have Mecca as a holy place?

In order for Christians and Muslims to go into parts of Jerusalem they have to get permission from Israel so there goes Israels freedom of religion sham. So don't you think blocking Christians and Muslims from holy sites that Israel hasn't destroyed yet a little extreme?

reply to post by The Vagabond

So maybe, if there was at least some minimal access to food, water, sanitation, transportation, communication for everyone world wide, you could seriously reduce the amount of horrible stuff going on- not completely eliminate it, but it would do considerably more for the situation than any military intervention could.

Whoop!
Time to bring Sarah McLachlan back into the room, for a musical interlude showing how it can be done. This is for those of us who see that World IS on Fire, and are trying to help. THERE IS A WAY.

THANK YOU, supermod, for your thoughtful post. You help restore my hope. Excellent post and contribution. :thumb up:

reply to post by wildtimes

Sorry, I missed that distinction.
The article's headline said "The West", which frequently refers to the political structures of the West, so that led me astray a little.

As for Christians in particular, I would suggest a combination of
lack of emphasis in media
and a sense that there is not much they can do about it if governments don't act.


PS Perhaps also a certain ignorance that Christian churches exist in the Middle East.
All maps of the "religions of the world" tend to paint with a broad brush and treat the areas as Musilm territory.
I know better because I'm acquainted with the history.

Serdgiam
Well, I think one of the reasons is that many people are actively discouraged from personal exploration and action from a very early age. Even in our education system, we are taught "what to learn," only learning the scientific method in later years. "What we learn" is even frequently outdated by the time a child graduates high school. But, I dont think what is learned directly is really what is being taught, more indoctrination.

It creates a pattern of feeling victimized, and getting rid of personal responsibility (since that supercedes perceived victimization).

All that said, I think the best course of actions is to get our act straight locally, then spread it out through technology. So, in this way, the "missionary" work could essentially be sending technology and then IT support.

I think the biggest trick is in teaching people how to fish rather than simply giving them some meat.

On a note made in the thread, I do not think the society we live in (and have lived in) is an inevitability of the human experience. There are better ways that would satisfy both need and greed to a greater extent than is possible using our current cultural paradigm.

edit on 7-11-2013 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

Would you believe this? Yesterday evening, my former Art History professor said that she had an entire classroom of college students who did not know who Socrates was.

What is going on that kids who graduated from high school and now in college, did not know Socrates? Oh the flashback to Mr. Perkeybile's 10th grade history class and making us write essays about the Greek philosophers.

Something happened in the last 30 years that changed from learning history to learning the internet gives us pop culture.

If students don't know about prior civilizations, how are they going to relate to concepts like Utopia, Communism, Socialism and Fascism? This professor was very liberal at one time, but seeing students graduating from high school that are undereducated in these necessary things, she has recently been questioning her own liberalism and has started taking a Libertarian stance.

Academia is now being challenged by the lack of education in this country, because Academia pushed it into that direction. It appears that most of us commenting on these threads come from a different time in this country, one that we were expected to learn in.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Would you believe this? Yesterday evening, my former Art History professor said that she had an entire classroom of college students who did not know who Socrates was.

Yep! You don't say what sort of college she teaches at, but LOTS of them are now leaving out "Liberal Arts and Humanities" curricula in favor of 'tech focus', which makes them little more than expensive, protracted 'votec' schools.

EVERY person on this planet needs to know the history of Western Civilization, the Religions, philosophy, and humanities. That would go a long way to healing the world.

reply to post by wildtimes


How dare you! Asking them to use their gray matter...what are you, some kind of sadistic demon? The depravity!

reply to post by buster2010


And that's why Pope John Paul II and Obama both prayed at the Wailing Wall?

Yes, there are certain places on must get permission, and it has to do more with security. But nothing stops a Muslim taxi driver driving a Jew to a holy place...hmmm.

The Temple Mount, if you recall, has a great big golden domed mosque there...doesn't it?

And there are many, many Christians who do go on pilgrimages to Bethlehem (under Islamic control) and the Sea of Galilee (under Jewish control). But what you are referring to is this, the law in Israel says that to get married, one must marry in a place of their religious faith. So a Jewish person who is applying for marriage in Israel must marry another Jew in a religious place in Israel.

There are many atheists in Israel. It isn't all about Jews.

But why aren't you completely honest in your statement? Here is the news about it...

Knesset and Prayers At The Al Aqsa Mosque

Arab-Israeli MPs were ejected from an Israeli parliamentary meeting as they protested against a plan to allow Jews to pray in the compound containing the al-Aqsa mosque in occupied East Jerusalem. An Israeli parliamentary committee held a heated debate on Monday on whether to begin allowing Jews to pray in the compound – known as Temple Mount to Jews and the Noble Sanctuary to Muslims.

Wait, what were the Muslims protesting here? They were tossed out for considering letting Jews pray there? So it's ok for Islam in Mecca to dictate where people can pray in another country?

There is another factor to consider - our government. When it comes to international affairs, the government often greases the way for major aid. Consider the following:

Syria was considered a a haven of sorts for Middle Eastern Christians.

Up until two years ago, Laham said that his country was “a beacon of hope for Christians in the Middle East.” He said it acted as a sanctuary for Christians fleeing persecution in neighboring Iraq. But now both the Iraqis and native Syrians are facing massive persecution.

'We have shouted aid to the world but no one has listened to us. Where is the Christian conscience? Where is human consciousness? Where are my brothers? I think of all those who are suffering today in mourning and discomfort: We ask everyone to pray for us,' Alnemeh said.

So, you have Christians taking cover in a place that many would say was hardly ideal, but it was livable for Christians compared to the other Middle Eastern countries, but now the persecution has followed them even here.

And when they need the help of major powers to get out, the usual world actor is busy doing what?

Oh, yes, we're busy training the people doing all the killing!

Syria's soldiers were angry and frustrated. Many didn't want us to show their faces or film their failure to recapture one of the jewels of Syria's multi-faith mosaic. Others kissed crucifixes they wore and cursed the Nusra Islamists who, as more than one assured me "were helped and trained by Britain and America".

...

On Saturday, in a Damascus church heavy with gold and grief, they mourned the Christians killed in the battle. The framed photographs of the dead sat next to the holy icons of the Greek Orthodox faith, some men in the pews bandaged from injuries they'd received. 'We blame Obama,' one woman in black yelled at me, 'he should have the Nobel peace prize taken away from him - he is helping the rebels who killed our Christian brothers'.

So why would our government be greasing wheels to help these people out when it's busy killing them?

wildtimes
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Would you believe this? Yesterday evening, my former Art History professor said that she had an entire classroom of college students who did not know who Socrates was.

Yep! You don't say what sort of college she teaches at, but LOTS of them are now leaving out "Liberal Arts and Humanities" curricula in favor of 'tech focus', which makes them little more than expensive, protracted 'votec' schools.

EVERY person on this planet needs to know the history of Western Civilization, the Religions, philosophy, and humanities. That would go a long way to healing the world.

She teaches at a Liberal Arts college. She has her Master's Degree from the University of Kentucky.