How Shariah, an Intended Compass for Peace, Became a Tool of Oppression

reply to post by logical7

a classic example of the fact that people see what they want to see rather than whats actually there!

Indeed, just like you see only what you want to see about 'the West'.

You and yours can deny those events took place among Muslims all day long;; it doesn't change the fact that those awful things ACTUALLY HAPPENED, and the perpetrators were "Muslims" who believed they were following Islam. Same with the Westboro monsters. THEY say they are true Christians. Doesn't make it so. THEY do hurtful, nasty, abhorrent things, both publicly and behind closed doors (those kids are beaten into submission) and still call themselves Christians.

(For you and babloyi both): I understand that there are many millions of Muslims who do not behave like savages. I really do. You keep waving away those pesky, buzzing swarms of malcontents and haters as though they are not calling themselves "Muslims" -- rather that I am making it up that they are Muslims -- but no amount of deflection can erase the horrors of those people who ARE maimed, injured, killed, and held captive in the name of Islam.

I've been following Malala's case since it happened. I know what she has to say, and I know that she denounces the Taliban. I know about the rich history of Islam during its expansion across the Ottoman empire, and have acknowledged their accomplishments, the beauty of their architecture and craftsmanship, the places of learning and studies of philosophy. Yes, all of that is true. It was true for a while, after they had installed themselves as the victors.

But that was long ago, and now it's over. Yet Al-Shabaab, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and other organized terrorists STILL CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS, your opinions notwithstanding.

So, as long as there are Muslims wielding machine guns and pistols, killing children, forcing women into full burqas, bombing embassies, etc, all your denials mean nothing. MOST Muslims are decent people, one has to presume, by sheer numbers. But MANY of them have gone insane and use Islam as a deadly weapon to excuse their violence, hatred, destruction, and evil-doings. THEY are the ones pulling the triggers, detonating the bombs, scheming the plots and assaulting the common people.

Sahabi
In full context, out of context, and according to limited and specific context,.... the Qur'an contains verse after verse belittling Jews, Christians, and non-believers. The Qur'an has an overwhelming stench of superiority complex which stimulates the Ego of its followers against non-Muslims.

I read what you went through and I personally believe that (most) muslims aren't spiritually where they should be -caused by various factors (whole new topic). However I fear your personal disclosure (unfortunately) was a reaction to the environment or should I say a shortcoming since you studied under the wahhabi school of thoughts instead of understanding God and his message in the qu'ran for what it truly was before you sough information. You'd be surprised for what the scripture holds, which includes many mathematical enigmas but it is for your soul to sincerely seek the truth instead of someone giving their personal input on it and "teaching" YOU their pov. Have you tried reading the qu'ran at least 5 times on your own before you looked for answers in a person, or see how it can relate to your struggle? What does the qu'ran mean to you when you stripe other ppl's interpretation? I mean really? no scripture(torah, gospel and quran) are meant to be an easy read.

But going back to the point, your statement is false concerning the qu'ran belittling other communities of faith.

2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

41:8 Surely, those who believe and do good works, they will receive recompense that will not end.

Whether you are a Jew, Christian or a Muslim you will be judged for whats in your heart and for your deeds, and it doesn't matter the title that you hold nor the traditions you practice for as long as you believe that there is no god but God (monotheism), you implore and pray to god and strive to purification. It's important to understand the qu'ran IS a guide for the people-not solely for the muslims (whether you want to follow that specific book or not)

22:34 And for every nation We have established rites that they may mention the name of God over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. Your god is One god; submit to Him and give good tidings to those who obey..

45:28 And you will see every nation lined-up together. Every nation will be called to its book. “Today, you will be recompensed for everything you have done.”

Also, if you studied the quran and not the works of modern day (a or many) teachers then you'd understand that mohamed may be one of the least mentioned prophets in the quran. Just because in arabic translation (such as yusuf ali's) it states messenger doesn't necessarily mean the book is referring to mohamed.

reply to post by wildtimes

and now it's
over. Yet Al-Shabaab, Al-Qaeda, the
Taliban, and other organized terrorists
STILL CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS, you r
opinions notwithstanding.

Yes!
And Presidents of USA, PMs of israel etc ordered or allowed millions of innocents to be killed all over the world and are still doing it and yet they claim to be christians and jews so whats your point?

Are you saying that if a person accept Islam by saying the shahada then he/she should in a blink transform and follow each Islamic teaching correctly and if he/she does anything bad then you will blame Islam even if Islamic teachings condemn it and ask the believers to be the opposite?

Your government is killing millions in the name of doing it for national security, your security, do you agree with that?
Then why you blindly agree that an act done in name of Islam should be blamed on Islam?

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

a classic example of the fact that people see what they want to see rather than whats actually there!

Indeed, just like you see only what you want to see about 'the West'.

You and yours can deny those events took place among Muslims all day long;; it doesn't change the fact that those awful things ACTUALLY HAPPENED, and the perpetrators were "Muslims" who believed they were following Islam. Same with the Westboro monsters. THEY say they are true Christians. Doesn't make it so. THEY do hurtful, nasty, abhorrent things, both publicly and behind closed doors (those kids are beaten into submission) and still call themselves Christians.

(For you and babloyi both): I understand that there are many millions of Muslims who do not behave like savages. I really do. You keep waving away those pesky, buzzing swarms of malcontents and haters as though they are not calling themselves "Muslims" -- rather that I am making it up that they are Muslims -- but no amount of deflection can erase the horrors of those people who ARE maimed, injured, killed, and held captive in the name of Islam.

I've been following Malala's case since it happened. I know what she has to say, and I know that she denounces the Taliban. I know about the rich history of Islam during its expansion across the Ottoman empire, and have acknowledged their accomplishments, the beauty of their architecture and craftsmanship, the places of learning and studies of philosophy. Yes, all of that is true. It was true for a while, after they had installed themselves as the victors.

But that was long ago, and now it's over. Yet Al-Shabaab, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and other organized terrorists STILL CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS, your opinions notwithstanding.

So, as long as there are Muslims wielding machine guns and pistols, killing children, forcing women into full burqas, bombing embassies, etc, all your denials mean nothing. MOST Muslims are decent people, one has to presume, by sheer numbers. But MANY of them have gone insane and use Islam as a deadly weapon to excuse their violence, hatred, destruction, and evil-doings. THEY are the ones pulling the triggers, detonating the bombs, scheming the plots and assaulting the common people.

edit on 11/20/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

this might be a tad bit random but lets give it a try, weren't Abel and Cain both the son of Adam?

so using the same reasoning, should we (hypothetically speaking) blame Adam for his children although one was slain by his "worsen" half and the father wasn't the main cause of the murder? So why are RIGHTEOUS muslims paying the price for others?
I call that unfair, its truly unjust to categorize what (whether effective or not ) negativity a group has onto/over the rest of ummah/community on the face of the earth.
Ive seen certain people from different decree/race/walk of life who would camouflage their actions as it fits them.

So, as long as there are Muslims wielding machine guns and pistols, killing children, forcing women into full burqas, bombing embassies, etc, all your denials mean nothing. MOST Muslims are decent people, one has to presume, by sheer numbers. But MANY of them have gone insane and use Islam as a deadly weapon to excuse their violence, hatred, destruction, and evil-doings. THEY are the ones pulling the triggers, detonating the bombs, scheming the plots and assaulting the common people.

I don't mean to be out of context but...I just switched the term Muslims to Blacks (in the above quotation) and well....

same story, different name...

what's funny is -and correct me if im wrong- you seem to be pro humanity and freedom (whatever their creed/race/gender ect) however when it comes to these "terrorist" you do not treat them as individuals responsible for their own actions

If I wanted to go on a rampage using a spoon killing in the name of Mars or the seniors living on earth should planets or elderly be blamed or be held accountable? I know its a far fetched analogy but most opinions in this thread seem to fall off the reasoning shelf.

you need to differentiate between the victims and the aggressors in this, (even if its muslims being oppressed by muslims) you need to take away the constant variable which is faith, then youre left with some folks oppressing other people.

It doesn't make sense for you to defend the muslim victims and oppose Islam....since the "victims" who were wronged by other human beings -whether they're muslims or belonged to other religious sects, remained holding on to their religious foundation.

Just because some individuals beat on their companion doesn't necessarily mean some men or women are following this "code" in which it can be damaging/infectious or dangerous to the gender as a whole.

From micro to macro, where do we draw the line in categorization?

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
(For you and babloyi both): I understand that there are many millions of Muslims who do not behave like savages. I really do. You keep waving away those pesky, buzzing swarms of malcontents and haters as though they are not calling themselves "Muslims" -- rather that I am making it up that they are Muslims -- but no amount of deflection can erase the horrors of those people who ARE maimed, injured, killed, and held captive in the name of Islam.

But you don't understand my point. You mentioned "Women not being allowed to drive" as an example. It is a popular complaint I've seen people hit muslims with constantly. Women are not allowed to drive according to a law enacted by about 2000 of the ruling family of the Sauds in an Arabian country of about 20 million Arabs.

Yet the world's entire 1.5 billion muslims are told they're part of an evil religion because 0.00013% of them, who rule over 0.013% of them disallow women to drive? It is utterly stupid. Women not being allowed to drive is a ridiculous thing in this day and age, but it has nothing to do at all with me, or you, or the vast majority of muslims worldwide. It isn't my fault, it isn't their fault, and it isn't Islam's fault. Telling me I need to take care of or am somehow responsible for, or somehow need to justify what they're doing simply because we both call ourselves muslim is as silly as claiming a Christian in the Philippines needs to answer for the dominionism of the US, or a Christian in Wales needs to answer for the witch-burning in Africa. It is utterly vile and wrong, certainly, but I am in no way responsible for it.

Islamic history has verifiable, undeniable written records of women riding their own camels and other mounts back to the very beginnings of Islam. Whatever idiotic reason Sauds may have for enacting such laws, it has nothing to do with Islam.

Why not blame all Sauds? Or blame all oil barons? Or why not blame all arabs (quite a few racist figureheads do)? Or blame or semites? Or blame all bearded people? Despite them accounting for a completely meaningless percentage (as I said, the ruling Sauds account for 0.00013% of all muslims worldwide), somehow their muslimness is at fault?

For an equally ridiculous example, Christianity in Africa (a more appropriate comparison to countries like Afghanistan in terms of education, wealth and so on of the general population) accounts for about 20% of the total Christian population worldwide. Among them, witchhunting (and burning), FGM, Homosexual burning, and misogyny are quite common, or at least accepted behaviour. So does that mean Christianity is to blame? Should we ignore the oppression, the economic situation, the lack of education, the generations of war (often inflicted by outside forces) and simply blame Christianity?

reply to post by babloyi

Telling me I need to take care of or am somehow responsible for, or somehow need to justify what they're doing simply because we both call ourselves muslim is as silly as claiming a Christian in the Philippines needs to answer for the dominionism of the US, or a Christian in Wales needs to answer for the witch-burning in Africa. It is utterly vile and wrong, certainly, but I am in no way responsible for it.

Islamic history has verifiable, undeniable written records of women riding their own camels and other mounts back to the very beginnings of Islam. Whatever idiotic reason Sauds may have for enacting such laws, it has nothing to do with Islam.

Babloyi,
I TOTALLY GET YOUR POINT!!!

I spent the day with my Mom. We discussed the issue of "Muslims" and "Christians" who are indicted by their own 'brethren' as "not real" [Muslims or Christians], and how we non-Muslims are supposed to tell them apart.

I have admitted over and over and over again that there are "Christian" sects (like Westboro), who are clearly not "real" Christians. My point is that SOME MUSLIM APOLOGISTS who identify as Muslims do the same thing: deny that there ARE sects of Muslims who do things that are atrocious.....(I see that you recognize that....I really do!)

And I have asked over and over and over: HOW DO WE TELL YOU APART FROM THE "NOT REALLY MUSLIMS"?

I have NO QUARREL with the fact that SOME small percentage of self-styled "Muslims" are those committing the atrocities on a daily basis. There are self-styled "Christians" who behave in egregious ways also.

My point is that the multi-millions of peaceable Muslims are not speaking out AGAINST the "poser" Muslims who say that THEY ARE MUSLIMS......
it's no different than the Christians calling out Westboro Baptist Curch....

so...we'd like to know:
How do I know a "real" Muslim from a zealous, insane, violent "Muslim"? Which sources should we access? What about the sources that paint the lot of you as "all the same"?

This works both ways. SOME Muslims despise 'the West', and label us all as evil, drunken rapist capitalist pigs, or as slutty, immodest, brazen huzzies. WE ARE NOT. Just as you say, "WE ARE NOT" when we bring up the Taliban.

I GET YOUR POINT. Perfectly. I am challenging Muslim members of ATS to own up to the atrocities committed in the name of "Islam" IN THE SAME MANNER that "Westerners" are owning up to the atrocities committed in the name of "Christianity/secularism/capitalism." Especially here on ATS. Fine, only a few Muslims think like that. LIKEWISE, WE ARE NOT ALL LIKE THE WBC MONSTERS, OR THE CORPORATE/MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL MONSTERS THAT WE ARE "PAINTED AS" BY MUSLIM PROPAGATORS OF HATRED!

BUT, whenever I ask, "so, then, which 'sect' of Islam should I listen to"? (much like I would say to someone inquiring about "Christians sects" - Well, the WBC IS NOT REALLY CHRISTIAN! AVOID THEM!) I am told it's none of my beeswax (business) what sect you all adhere to, because "I don't deserve to know." Yet, I am expected to somehow discern which 'outlets' are propaganda like the American 700 Club is for zealous, violent Christinas, and which are 'bona fide' "Muslim" sources. I'm sick of being labelled a "capitalist/secular" demon incarnate!!!

I hope you can see the parallel.
Take care, friend.
I'm really, truly, honestly, only trying to have a dialogue -- in order to dispense with disinfo, misunderstanding, and stalemates that are grounded in blame, hatred, misunderstanding, generalization, etc. Despite what critics and apologists are accusing me of, I AM TRANSPARENT. I WANT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS FROM BOTH SIDES.

It starts with owning up to the problems in the first place, and discussing how to CORRECT them.

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
I have admitted over and over and over again that there are "Christian" sects (like Westboro), who are clearly not "real" Christians. My point is that SOME MUSLIM APOLOGISTS who identify as Muslims do the same thing: deny that there ARE sects of Muslims who do things that are atrocious.....(I see that you recognize that....I really do!

It is not my business to go around identifying who is a "fake" or "poser" or "not real" muslim, and who is. If a person misses (or skips) one prayer, are they fake? If a person doesn't give to charity one year, are they "not real"? Or are these people simply not good muslims?
Correct Islamic attitude and actions are defined by the Islamic scriptures, so if someone does something contrary to the scriptures, I can point out that that is not Islamic, but I can't really see into the mind of a person who claims to be muslim and say whether they are or are not muslim.

wildtimes
My point is that the multi-millions of peaceable Muslims are not speaking out AGAINST the "poser" Muslims who say that THEY ARE MUSLIMS......

What do you mean Muslims HAVE been denouncing terrorism?
They have been speaking out. That that information hasn't reached you, is not their fault.

wildtimes
I GET YOUR POINT. Perfectly. I am challenging Muslim members of ATS to own up to the atrocities committed in the name of "Islam" IN THE SAME MANNER that "Westerners" are owning up to the atrocities committed in the name of "Christianity/secularism/capitalism." Especially here on ATS. Fine, only a few Muslims think like that.

But again, referring to my previous post, "owning up" implies some form of responsibility. The actions of those who call themselves muslim are not the same as the "actions" of Islam. I don't think I've ever seen a christian here "own up" the the atrocities committed in Christianity's name, certainly not here on ATS. The most they would say is "Those weren't real christians" or "That's not indicative of real christianity".
You're not going to have difficulty finding muslims who condemn the actions of the Taliban, or Al Qaeeda, or the Saudi monarchy, or various governments in muslim majority countries, , but they're not going to associate it with Islam.

wildtimes
BUT, whenever I ask, "so, then, which 'sect' of Islam should I listen to"? (much like I would say to someone inquiring about "Christians sects" - Well, the WBC IS NOT REALLY CHRISTIAN! AVOID THEM!) I am told it's none of my beeswax (business) what sect you all adhere to, because "I don't deserve to know." Yet, I am expected to somehow discern which 'outlets' are propaganda like the American 700 Club is for zealous, violent Christinas, and which are 'bona fide' "Muslim" sources. I'm sick of being labelled a "capitalist/secular" demon incarnate!!!

Quite pointless to complain to me about it, I haven't done these things. If someone is calling you a demon incarnate or whatever, report them to the mods. I don't believe I've ever used that language, even against "the West", but I can see how someone could call "the West" as a "capitalist/secularist demon incarnate" or "corporate/military/industrial monsters" or "evil, drunken rapist capitalist pigs", or "slutty, immodest, brazen huzzies".

People, obviously, are people, and each person is individual and can't and shouldn't be generalised as such, but governments, media empires, huge businesses, for those things, it fits. At the top, or right at the back of all of these, there aren't cackling, evil Hitler-clones manipulating everything, there are a bunch of men in suits (who might be very nice to their wives and kids and neighbours, and always speak to you politely and help out their pal when they ask for it) whose business it is to care about nothing but the bottom number, and that sort of attitude fans out.

There isn't "one sect" of Islam you should listen to only, and if anyone tells you otherwise, THEY are the person you shouldn't be listening to. I try my best to shy away from sectarianism, so I'm not going to advocate one sect over the others. I might find small points (or even major points) in many sects that I disagree with or consider unislamic, but that doesn't given me the right (never mind the authority) to strip a person who happens to be of that sect of the "muslim" label. Dialogue and understanding and such is very important, but it won't be fostered by brewing sectarianism. Most muslims already speak out against terrorists, but they don't speak out against terrorists as being muslim, they speak out against them as being terrorists.

reply to post by babloyi


I feel, as an educated, capable adult, that rooting out the problem/misunderstanding is imperative, and certainly my 'job' in the world. To identify problems where I see them, and work to solve them.

I'm done here. I can go no further into this acutely important subject than I already have. You all refuse to see my points, or even to acknowledge my acceptance of culpability and efforts to investigate this "Muslim Mystery." I have done my homework - as distasteful as parts of it were. I have examined the evidence provided to me, as well as other information I found on my own. If others won't hear me, and address the parts they see (let alone look for them!, and work with me to find a middle ground of compassion, empathy, and tolerance, then I must carry on independently and leave behind their inattention, apathy, and ability to see the larger picture without being offended by doing so.

I said earlier in the thread, to logical7's snide, sarcastic, smart-ass jibe about how 'grateful he was' that I had helped him see his own shortcomings...
I am done here.

Best wishes. Hope you eventually gain some more advanced insight, and appreciation for the responsibility of being part of this society, and MAKE IT YOUR BUSINESS to do something besides blaming others, making excuses, picking sides, and otherwise looking the other way.

As you were then, babs. Take care.

reply to post by wildtimes

And I have asked over and over and
over: HOW DO WE TELL YOU APART
FROM THE "NOT REALLY MUSLIMS"?

even your question is based on a prejudice against Islam..
Do you go around asking christians as to how to distinguish good christians and bad?

The answer is that you interact and find out how an individual is. Also asking open ended questions is more fruitful than asking accusing questions like "why you muslims don't let your women drive? etc

you also assume that all people of a sect would either be all good or all bad. I don't know how you even reach that kind of unreasonable thinking.

BUT, whenever I ask, "so, then, which
'sect' of Islam should I listen to"?
(much like I would say to someone
inquiring about "Christians sects" -
Well, the WBC IS NOT REALLY
CHRISTIAN! AVOID THEM!) I am told it's none of my beeswax (business) what sect you all adhere to, because "I don't deserve to know."

you percieve it that way wildtimes!
Any muslim who knows his/her Islam a bit knows that they should refrain from identifying themselves by sects and helping divide muslims.

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.(3-103)

If you want to get authentic knowledge about Islam then read the scripture and you'l know everything you need to know.

reply to post by wildtimes

I'm done here. I can go no further into
this acutely important subject than I
already have. You all refuse to see my
points, or even to acknowledge my
acceptance of culpability and efforts to
investigate this "Muslim Mystery." I have done my homework - as
distasteful as parts of it were. I have
examined the evidence provided to
me, as well as other information I
found on my own. If others won't
hear me, and address the parts they see (let alone look for them!, and
work with me to find a middle ground
of compassion, empathy, and
tolerance, then I must carry on
independently and leave behind their
inattention, apathy, and ability to see the larger picture without being
offended by doing so. I said earlier in the thread, to logical7's
snide, sarcastic, smart-ass jibe about
how 'grateful he was' that I had
helped him see his own
shortcomings...
I am done here.

what i basically see is that you want the discussion to go the way you dictate and nobody should criticize you even when you say or hold on to things that are untrue just because you think your intentions are pure(I am ready to acknowledge that part, I know you are a good person)
but sorry wildtimes, I cannot let you steer the discussion the way you want, come to it with a willingness to let it move freely and maybe try and show that you have let go of prejudices that you had against Islam once you are shown the truth(you have done it but it could be better)
How about openly acknowledging that you now agree that what sauds & talibans do is not what Islam teaches?

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
I feel, as an educated, capable adult, that rooting out the problem/misunderstanding is imperative, and certainly my 'job' in the world.
...
I can go no further into this acutely important subject than I already have.
...
You all refuse to see my points, or even to acknowledge my acceptance of culpability and efforts to investigate this "Muslim Mystery.
...
If others won't hear me, and address the parts they see (let alone look for them!, and work with me to find a middle ground of compassion, empathy, and tolerance, then I must carry on independently and leave behind their inattention, apathy, and ability to see the larger picture without being offended by doing so.

Which problem/misunderstanding? Which subject? Acceptance of culpability for what? What "Muslim Mystery"?
I haven't been offended generally (or even specifically) by anything you've said here. It seems you sometimes "lash out" at me when in fact you meant it in response to someone else, or sometimes you misunderstand something I said as being an attack on you or your statements. I'd like to think I've not done any such thing, but if I have, please do point it out.
I have to admit (and I mean no offence by this), however, that I have no idea what specifically you are arguing about, and I have to admit as well, this seems to be a running standard in our conversations.

In my eyes (and I fully admit I may be misunderstanding something here), you post a thread with a piece of "evidence", followed by your (or a generalised public?) opinion of it. People talk, discuss, say stuff, give responses, and at some point I (or someone else), asks exactly what you are saying, and you clarify that you want a muslim's opinion or response to it, in an attempt to "foster dialogue and discussion" and to "expand your understanding", and you weren't stating facts, but asking opinions and perspectives. At this point, I provide my own, as relevant or as meaningful as you may find it. I think I explicitly did so in this thread after you asked.

So for my own benefit, if you don't mind, could you answer these questions explicitly? If it is at this point unrelated to the original article you posted in the OP, I can accept that.

What exactly (specifically) are you asking here in this thread? Or saying? Or positing?
What exactly are you wanting from me? Or from other muslims? Or from any responders?

You've mention finding a "middle ground of compassion and tolerance" and so on, and I don't disagree with that, and most don't disagree with that here, and those are admirable goals, certainly, but in my questions I specifically am asking about in this thread and in your post.

wildtimes
Hope you eventually gain some more advanced insight, and appreciation for the responsibility of being part of this society, and MAKE IT YOUR BUSINESS to do something besides blaming others, making excuses, picking sides, and otherwise looking the other way.

Hope I do too, everyone could do with a little insight. And indeed, we are all a part of society and need to act responsibly. However, vague discussions on the internet barely work even on an individual level, my output is more in terms of my real world actions. I don't think I've made excuses for anyone, nor do I believe I need to. Every person is responsible for their actions.

reply to post by logical7

How about openly acknowledging that you now agree that what sauds & talibans do is not what Islam teaches?

Sigh. I already have. Repeatedly. Over and over. If you get so incensed at me that you don't actually read my words, there's not much I can do but repeat it again.

I'm calling on those who are part of the CULTURE of these misdeeds, to see the misbehavior and step up and say, "Hey, wait a minute." If you can influence the roots of it (not following Islam) to identify and stop the spreading of false ideas, then you should attempt to do so. The OP was a piece written by a Muslim, about Muslim leaders who are corrupting youth.

You excuse the do-nothing attitude by saying that "there is no central leadership" and blaming "the West."

I have investigated your sources, listened to your deconstruction of it, and find it wanting.

Well, not everyone is a Catholic, but the Pope is a very solid spokesperson for the "Christian" point of view, and he speaks up. There are so-called "Christians" who think he is the anti-Christ, which is ridiculous...
but he continues to speak up, and is making waves...

I don't see any sort of similar effort from the Muslim uber-leaders, but that may be because I don't have access to the information, as an outsider and (in your mind) enemy.

reply to post by babloyi

What exactly (specifically) are you asking here in this thread?

What can be done by us as a human race to stop the atrocities.

Or saying?

That improving society on a macro-level (social work, macro-style) means looking at the ENTIRE system, from all sides, and then adjusting and/or eliminating the poor management that causes continued unrest. Whether it's a family, a business, a town, a nation, or the entire human race.

Or positing?

That I don't see adequate reform efforts taking place. I am wanting to know why it is so difficult for others to identify the source of the problems and actively work/speak to correct them. I think the article did that.
Yet I am still being looked at as someone with "honeyed diplomacy", a "closed mind", and a "busy-body" meddling where I don't belong,....and even worse, *gasp* a product of the West. I'm tired of 'the West' being blamed for the actions of non-Westerners.

What exactly are you wanting from me?

To help me understand why this is allowed to continue when even Muslims realize it's wrong. You say you are numerous, you are legion...I challenge you to become active in your faith and remove the leaders from their positions, much as the bishops and priests who have violated young boys are removed.

Or from other muslims? Or from any responders?

Acknowledgement that reform is desperately behind schedule, that "blame" be set aside and "solution" be implemented.

The OP was simply pointing out a Muslim view of the corruption, how it started, why it continues, what it causes, and how it effects the lives of others. I want everyone to be on the same page, and work together to stop the insanity.

Hope that's clear.

As for your style, no, babloyi, I don't feel that you have attacked me. Others have, but you have not, and I always am glad to have your feedback, as you know the faith and I do not. But we can ALL see the results; and those who claim to be stake-holders in Islam, it seems to me, need to actively erase the misled leadership and install capable, moral leaders. Same with Christianity.

My beef is with organized religion in general. NONE OF THEM work very well.

reply to post by logical7

I cannot let you steer the discussion the way you want,

Excuse me, it's my thread. You joined it. I get to hostess it. Make your own thread if you want the discussion to go a way you like it. I have conducted classes and meetings for decades, logical7, I know how to keep them on track and not drift off into tangential, childish squabbling.

come to it with a willingness to let it move freely and maybe try and show that you have let go of prejudices that you had against Islam once you are shown the truth (you have done it but it could be better)

I have done that, and you are lying and misleading readers to imply that I have not. It could be better? Sure, it could. I'm a 'beginner' at Islam - I'm NOT a beginner at social issues, problem solving, or anthropological study. I am a sociologist.

What have YOU done, logical, to meet me halfway and ease up on "the West"?

ETA: Now, if you all don't mind....Again, excuse me: I have started another discussion in Social Issues regarding injustice of income inequality. I shoot my mouth off about Western problems, too. But you keep denying that I do.

It's my thread, too, so I need to go and 'steer the discussion' to keep it on topic. Don't trouble yourself to chime in there, it might make you look like you actually read what I post, and pay attention to ALL of my efforts. You probably won't like the ideas in it, anyway. Because it's about 'the West' and a huge problem with it.

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
What can be done by us as a human race to stop the atrocities.

Which atrocities? Given the nature of the human race, I somehow doubt that all atrocities will ever be stopped.

wildtimes
That I don't see adequate reform efforts taking place. I am wanting to know why it is so difficult for others to identify the source of the problems and actively work/speak to correct them. I think the article did that.

I don't think you'll find many muslims who disagree with the article insofar as what the article wrote.

wildtimes
Yet I am still being looked at as someone with "honeyed diplomacy", a "closed mind", and a "busy-body" meddling where I don't belong,....and even worse, *gasp* a product of the West. I'm tired of 'the West' being blamed for the actions of non-Westerners.

Other things aside, are you not a product of the West?
The problem is, outside interference (often from "the West") DO have a lot to do with many of the problems of the world today. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but interference from "the West" played its part as well: Iraq, Iran, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, Cuba, Vietnam and so on and so on. So while it might be annoying, and of course, you PERSONALLY aren't responsible for any of those (probably ), when "the West" tries playing the saviour, the involved parties need to restrain themselves very strongly from simply saying "Mind your own business". It is from experience.

wildtimes
To help me understand why this is allowed to continue when even Muslims realize it's wrong. You say you are numerous, you are legion...I challenge you to become active in your faith and remove the leaders from their positions, much as the bishops and priests who have violated young boys are removed.

There are no "leaders" who I owe allegiance to. The "leaders" in Islam died almost 1400 years ago. Humanity as a whole realises lots of things are wrong. Everyone realises racism and greedy corporations are wrong, but "Why haven't you removed racism?" or "Why haven't you removed greedy corporations?" are equally naive questions. The few countries with these "Leaders" still existing (Saudi Arabia and Iran?) have these autocratic rulers are backed up by outsiders (like Saudi Arabia, where external support for its own ends was used to quash any internal rebellion) or where the current system was a response to external interference (like Iran, where external support for its own ends propped up a leader that nobody wanted, and the fallout from that resulted in the country today).

See, before any internal uprising can take place, heck, the very FIRST step is to remove the external interference. Then people can freely stand up to their own "leaders". Every people are are responsible for their own. And it'll happen. Might take a 100 years, but it'll happen. Iran isn't getting more radical (no matter what outside interference may posit), it is getting less. The only thing holding the government together is unification in the face of almost universal animosity from the outside.

wildtimes
But we can ALL see the results; and those who claim to be stake-holders in Islam, it seems to me, need to actively erase the misled leadership and install capable, moral leaders. Same with Christianity.

My beef is with organized religion in general. NONE OF THEM work very well.

But see, in that sense, Islam isn't an organised religion. There are no "leaders of Islam", no heirarchy. And you mentioned this solution earlier in this thread, and I voiced my opposition to it then as well: I don't believe that attempting to put the "leadership" of Islam into any one person's hand is beneficial. I don't believe that creating an artificial hierarchy would be helpful. It would just open the path to even more abuse (just look at all the problems within the Catholic hierarchy in the past few years).

reply to post by babloyi

There are no "leaders of Islam", no heirarchy.

The OP article clearly states that "leaders" are recruiting young, uninformed Muslims to commit the "atrocities" - so, yes...there are "leaders". And they should be reined in.

That is my point.

Peace, babs.

reply to post by wildtimes

Does it? I didn't read any such thing. In mentioning Pakistan, it says that the "clergy wants to radicalize Muslims to increase their own street and electoral power" and then it talks about the actions of one of the military dictators in Pakistan.

I don't keep up with the day-to-day politics of Pakistan, but last I heard, the Jamaat-e-Ulema Islami and the Jamaat-e-Islami, the two theocratic (or "theodemocratic", as they like to call themselves) political parties in Pakistan barely made up 5% of the votes in the last election, and that will probably be even less in the next elections, considering that the only news about them recently was near universal condemnation from all sides of their leader's comments saying that Pakistani soldiers fighting against the Taliban were not "shaheed" (martyrs), and that the Taliban leader who was killed recently WAS a shaheed.

Whatever the case may be, these people are POLITICAL leaders, who base their party around religion. They're not religious leaders.

reply to post by babloyi


Perhaps you might re-read the OP, if not the article itself.

Clearly states that runaway, power-mongering "leaders" are taking advantage of ignorant youths and teaching them that committing atrocities is "correct Islam."

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
The OP article clearly states that "leaders" are recruiting young, uninformed Muslims to commit the "atrocities"

followed by:

wildtimes
Perhaps you might re-read the OP, if not the article itself.

Clearly states that runaway, power-mongering "leaders" are taking advantage of ignorant youths and teaching them that committing atrocities is "correct Islam."

So you'll understand my confusion. I DID re-read the article, it states no such thing. You quoted bite-sized chunks of the article, followed by your interpretation of what you read.
I'm sorry, but for me,

wildtimes
"Power-mongering. Terrorism. Strap that vest on and GO! SCARE the survivors into submission.

Doesn't follow from

"the ordinary Muslims are inclined to believe in twisted interpretation of clergy because such interpretations give legitimacy to centuries-old local customs"

(what you quoted and bolded from the article, and responded to with that previous comment I quoted).

reply to post by babloyi


Okay then. I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this issue.
Thanks for your help.