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Vatican ban on Medjugorje public appearances in USA raises brows

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posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 10:33 PM
reply to post by WarminIndy

I compared the last Politburo of Mr Gorbachev to the current Roman Cathlic church headquarters in 30 year timespan. I know there is no more USSR. And the current Rome headquarters loses the competiton, imo. The last Soviet government cared for the people more, despite all big errors, than the current (last?) government of the Roman church. The current ROman govt does not accept correction, does not listen to people, and is as much separated from the people's problems as never before. Perhaps only the ROman emperors were more distant, arrogant etc. It is Roman not Catholic in first place. I know there is no more USSR. Perhaps soon there won't be Roman empire anymore as well. If those mothballed heads in Rome don't realize heir time has ended, they will go in history with worse image of USSR. They made more crimes in historic timespan of 17 centuries, including blood of martyrs THEY shed. Let me mention Giordano Bruno and Fra Savonarola. Not 20 centuries. I do not speak of the first 3. All the talks of change of the newly elect Argentine pope Francis will go flat if he permits to happen what we see happen. Enough with imperial thinking. He is not the Roman emperor, neither his aide is the great inquisitor anymore. If he does not clear up, all of them will go. The people are no slaves neither idiots. 7th month after the loud trumped "change" we see actions that are much worse of the failed Benedict policy. To attack the holiest shrine. Next dogmas will be attacked. And next the NWO order will be given. As it nearly was during Benedict. DOn't you remember they asked for authority above the UN to be created. This is outrageous! And when the common people online compared it to the rising one world system, they withdrew but not before that. If there weren't people to stand up for their demands, now we would have a UN-Rome institution to rule over the world. No thanks! ANyone punished for that? Benedict sympathized the idea until his last days as pope. I hoped the new pope is different. Different? Let he show difference, the bishop of Rome. This is his title. Not king of the kings.

posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 10:55 PM
If I don't stand up for the Virgin who hides in the desert, there is nothing more holy to stand up for.

No the Vatican doesn't have the chance to be the Great Harlot. It has the chance to be Rome still not fallen. I don't say the beast that hasn't come yet. It will first disappear. It has never disappeared. Red beast uSSR? HAHAHA. The religion was almost free in USSR, even the catholics had their churches. There is Orthodox patriarch and he was standing during all the time of USSR (despite great errors on the side of the government in regard to religion). USSR was never a part of the ROman empire to be compared to the red beast. Roman empire never fell in first place. Rome was never raised to the ground by anyone. Odoaker invaded Ravenna and in fact was subject to the Byzantium Emperor.

Later in history with absence of ROman emperor the popes became the emperors. Crowning of kings etc. Don't you realize that? It is hard to be realized in 21st century when everything is covered under lamb skins. But it wasn't so during the Spanish inquisition, and conquistadors who destroyed unspeakable treasures of history and killed en masse people in Peru for the sole sin of being homosexual. How about the Vatican people themselves?

It is outrageous! At the time when the Church must be cleaned from wolves inside, the headquarter's top clerk attacks the holiest thing that kept the faith alive in the last 20-30 years! And very few people dare to say it, if they are still in the time of inquisition! Actually the very fact we have the letter published show opposition of the US bishops who expect public support. Do these millions Medjugorje devotees understand they have to show that support of Our Lady, or they do not? Hope that will be joined by the EU bishops who would be equally hurt by the same clerk and by all of them - if they remain untouched. For what chage the pope speaks, OMG, if it becomes worse than during Benedict? WHy did Benedict resign, wasn't it to give opportunity to a new pope and to a NEW PEOPLE inside the Vatican, to get rid of the old ones?

Shall we ask for his resignation too after some months of repeated failures and inaction?

I will stand up for the Virgin in Medjugorje, not for any Vati-crats!

In anyway our flee in the desert seems closer than ever. They cannot attack us before the rapture. It is written so in Revelation 12.

posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 11:13 PM
Cardinal Maradiaga is the head of commission of reforms of Vatican. They look for what kind of reforms to make, as we speak.

I suggest a kind of a voting system involving the billion wide population, be it worldwide or on diocese principle. The Orthodox patriarchs are voted by bishops, priests, nuns, and intelligent pre-select citizens of the society they represent. Also voting on key issues. Control by the people over those in Vatican.

If the bishops' sole role is to seek benevolence for higher position, the whole pyramid is run erroneously, with a handful of men to decide. Not even the pope in many cases in recent history. JP2 did not rule in the last decade of his life. Ratzinger, Sodano and Bertone did. As Roman triumvirate. Shame on the church that pretends to have a new public image . Now is the time for such a change and REAL new image. Now or never.

posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 11:22 PM
That puts more questions, why there isn't transparency of the Ratzinger-Bertone-Sodano work and how it was possible to enter at once in such a deep sexual crisis. Financial crisis. Crisis of confidence. Fake sacred texts as Fatima. What light will be shed on that rule that ended with Benedict's resignation? It might be a honorable act, but it shows big faults in the system, not necessarily personal. What are those faults that we all know from the media and why there aren't punished people so far? How is possible a cardinal who had homosexual relation, not with kids but with adults, to be fired at once, only because he said the priests should marry? Of course I speak of Cardinal O'Brien who was fired just before the conclave the very moment he said about the priests. By Ratzinger and Bertone. Why didn't they fire him earlier if they knew of what big sinner he was? And how many other big sinners are among the walls of Vatican? Why everything was silenced at the election of the Argentine new pope? As there were never such scandals. To give opportunity to the new pope to change things.

Here is the change: an outright massive attack at core belief of a big enough part of catholic population, in Medjugorje case! Tomorrow they wil forbid pilgrimages too. This has one word and that is PERSECUTION. This time only religious and spiritual. Because they don't have armed forces.

posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 11:43 PM
reply to post by 2012newstart

Too tired to respond well to your kind post.

Agreed, we agree on some things and not on others.

Certainly this is a critical time, imho.

Globalism is marching forth more and more overtly as these blokes asserted long ago up through recently what they would do, are doing and will do.

Their original timelines have not been met but they have not missed them by too far.

Somehow, the issues you write about will be a part of all that the globalists seek and will do.

Certainly Scripture is clear that in the END TIMES there WILL BE a one world government and a one world religion.

I fail to understand anyone claiming Biblical knowledge above Jr High level who can't or won't see that. LOL.

--I don't class you in such a clueless cohort.

Anyway--better head toward bed.


posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 11:47 PM
This 'stuff' always reminds me of people discussing plots on long running soap operas...

...about time they dropped the yada, yada, yada about the pros and cons of this crap and started 'feeding my hungry', 'clothing my unclad' and 'housing my homeless'...

I'd like to see the money where their mouth is...


posted on Nov, 7 2013 @ 11:51 PM
I will stop posting in this thread because I don't want to speak more of these people. They are disgusting to me. For me they do not represent thue Catholic teaching let alone the wider (and holier) Christian one. Whether or not they have deeper and darker agendas, as some alleged sources say (Exovaticana) I don't know. Still there is a slim chance the new pope and old jesuit cardinal Bergoglio-Francis will do something new and positive for this world. Not necessarily for the catholic handful of hierarchy which maintained existence runs into absurd and self-satisfied purpose. But for this world and the people that populate it. But that chance expires with every new month coming. The process is not reversible, as we talk in other threads.

I am more interested whether China will nuke USA, whether ET will land in Moscow or Tokyo and will open a new page of humanity. I am not interested at all how those people holed up within the city-state will react on that. Their judgment means nothing to me anymore. Their fate is not my concern either. They may want to burn Rome again to die as martyrs.

The world development cannot be stopped by one or several people who pretend big things. The world has overcome that already centuries ago. And is going to open a new page, a page that has already been read by millions of people on internet and soon will be announced to the masses via MSM. A pope on earth if there will be hundreds of new planets with hundreds of new popes successors of Peter? Hear Michio Kaku. May be this is the best conclusion of my reflections. They killed Giordano Bruno but Giordano Bruno proved right several centuries later, now when thousand new planets are added to the catalogs. I prefer that future. Call it whatever. Just don't call it antichrist, because the antichrist may be nearer and insider than you think.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 12:11 AM
Perhaps they indeed hide something as big as Tom Horne speaks about in Exo Vaticana. They reject outsiders in their researches, no matter they search and find new planets with the jesuit telescopes. Perhaps theirs are not the most holy ones among the ET, the opposite. Some already name who of the ET are in connection with the Vatican. I don't want to name them here although I might have done that before. The persecutors of the woman are who on the ET list? Now we have persecution of woman, however illogical it should be. Therefore those particular evil ET are present on Earth, although their presence is not the total dominance promised at the end times, not yet.

Soon the truth will be revealed. Truth not sealed by Rome as such, but truth that comes forth despite the efforts of Rome to destroy it.

I don't see any chance now for the new pope. He is a part of the system that runs irrelevant. If not he should have done something different and better by now.

In public scandals a public service minister or secretary usually gives resignation within 24 -48 hours in the countries where the public opinion matters. I am sorry for those on high who do not demand it from the guilty one in this case and are ready to bow down before pressure equal to totalitarian regimes. Because they will not demand it tomorrow either, when they are pushed into the corner, not the apparition and the common believers but they themselves. That only proves the system called roman catholic church is a self-serving number of members on different levels without any wider goals other than the service to themselves and their self-satisfied structure, not found anywhere in the Gospel. God? Before they betrayed God, they betrayed the people of God in first place. Many times in history.

Let have resignations to see anything changes!

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 12:19 AM

the Church cannot rule so fast. Major apparitions have been approved only after the deaths of the seers. With few exceptions. Medjugorje has good fruits. I visited it too but it just doesn't matter myself. One cannot claim the demon would urge the people to hurl to Medjugorje to make confessions and in many cases to change their lives. The demons usually do the opposite, according to all we know of them.

US bishops conference should have shown or will show in future tense more muscle than it is presented now from all these writings online. We don't really know how those all bishops react. A priest can deny a meeting, frightened by the seals. But all US bishops commanded as if they are soldiers? How about the synod and the whole idea the church is all bishops together, with the faithful? Or it is just words of convenience that become useless at the next doc of the next bureaucrat who issues it in the next office. Then for what unification anyone is hoping for, if the Orthodox patriarchs see clearly how Roman bureucracy works in practice? If they will be the next useless clerks in their home countries? Think of that. The apostles didn't make it that way. The church is apostolic, that means Rome plus all the rest. That means all the bishops. Not a Vatican clerk no matter how hi in hierarchy. Not the great inquisitor if I have to use that terminology. Sorry but it is not a reform what we see right now, it is how to say, restoration to some very old model. This is the warning signal even if one does not believe in Medjugorje at all. The inquisitor must go, at least. Perhaps he is not alone. Perhaps together with his outdated office that knows quite a dark history. Or you fear him? Then you bought him extra time and power. Shall we dare to change, or we all sink. No, I am out of the sinking, sorry. Let those responsible bear their own and historic weight if they refuse and refuse to change.

This is what I have shard concerning Garabandal, like Medjugore. The evil one would never bring about a Eucharistic Miracle. There was eyewitness testimony of the faithful and of seculars.

How can a said "hoax" become supernatural, of God? God doesn't work this way.

I wish doubting people would explain the miraculous healings at Medjugorje. Another good fruit from Medjugorje.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 12:36 AM
reply to post by colbe

I 'd wish the Medjugorje the most populous Marian apparition site after Lourdes in last centuries, to be dealt with the diligence the Heavenly Mother deserves.

NOT WITH DIRECTIVES issued by one man (hi clerk of CDF) and given thru another man (Vat. ambassador) to bow before them every bishop, priest, nun, and faithful "every knee" in the USA. Tomorrow it will be EU, it will be the whole world. Communists didn't do so odd, really! Perhaps the ancient kings did, don't know.

Every knee to bow before one person's decision (or several of them) however wrong it might be, Including the visionaries, including may be Virgin Mary herself??? Those men should be gone for good! Not because I or someone else writes that in a forum. But because their role in the scandal requires their removal from their positions. For the sake of the people and the prestige of the institution if you will (despite all my negative observations in the previous posts, this institution may still hold on her prestige called the biggest christian chruch on earth and may not want her prestige gone even more).

I was among those who asked for pope Benedict's resignation, may be not in this forum but in another one, don't remember. Several months before he actually resigned. In the midst of 2012 it was clear he would not rule for long, being not capable of. He was out of control of bureaucrats and sexuals. He didn't fire anyone or very few second tier people.

I hope the time won't come when instead of resignation of head of a committee in the city-state, the public outcry will want yet another papal early change. For whatever reason different from apparitions. Because there are quite a few of them and we all know them.

Even the cardinal position is not a necessary precondition for election of a new pope. It wasn't so in early centuries. This is NOT in the Gospel. In the Gospel Peter was appointed NOT BISHOP OF ROME. It is a long theologian talk and I don't feel fit enough to lead it. But Jesus certainly did not call Peter to go to Rome and establish the world's most powerful empire to crown kings and to burn people. Actually Peter never did that. 4 centuries later it was done by others.
edit on 8-11-2013 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-11-2013 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 02:46 AM
The fanatic site of another apparition banned at its time, Bayside NY, cheers at the hardline ruling of the Vatican
"Vatican Bombshell Letter Bans Medjugorje in U.S..."

Actually Vatican has no jurisdiction over US citizen's meetings on the territory of USA such as Ivam Dragicevis appears to be.. Perhaps this time the Vat. office crossed also international border. They didn't speak like that when it was vice versus - when the US bishops were responsibe for sex scandals. Then the Vat. defense line was: we are not their employers, they are no tour employees, judge them not us. SHame!
But the big red line crossed is in the consciousness of many thousands, perhaps millions of the most devote catholics, and not only catholics. That will not be erased so easily as with one papal nuntio letter. Or even resignation. I think the case is capable of and big enough to torpedo the entire reform of Francis. Because no one will believe it is not exactly he at the bottom when he let the things go and fires no one. The ultimate responsibility is on the bishop or Rome for his own subjects over there.

Perhaps the reform should include a ban on Vatican to mess in domestic issues. Including on apparitions and others. You can't really have sex offenders who ban another sex-adulterous person, as cardinal O'Brien. How would they have face to show up, with the gay lounge under one of Vat. congregations? If that is just normal, then reinstate O'Brien and punish those who took his head back then.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 03:05 AM
German bishops recently informed Vatican they started giving communion to divorced and remarried couples in cases when those show desire of repentance. The news is 2-3 weeks old, I don't have the link. That was met with ire by the Vat. who instead wants to wait until a synod of bishops is convened next spring.

Perhaps the unhappy ones from the snail pace of reforms are not only common people, but also bishops. Perhaps what surfaces as US nuns revolting, and now poor Ivan banned from meeting the public (as if he is the offender), may show much deeper disagreements between local bishops of big countries and the Vatican.

At the election of Francis I thought, they agreed for the common good, those Romans and the Reformers. It seems they did not. The Roman hardliners hold all positions and not only keep the status quo. They ATTACK. They change it drastically backward. People, wake up, even if you are not Catholics! Only a year ago all newspapers were filled with scandalous facts that made the first pope in the newest history to resign by his own decision. Those facts are not erased, they are just silenced. Where are all those money given by US checks on each Sunday mass? Those are billions probably. Any accountability to those who give them? How much of it went to the poor in Africa (and not only) and how much for luxury lifestyle of hierarchy?

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 03:30 AM
Bergoglio was the top candidate at 2005 conclave that ultimately saw elected the 78 years old Ratzinger as Benedict 16. Cardinal Bergoglio the archbishop of Buenos Aires at that time, although gathering second biggest score and despite all pre-conclave expectations of a Latin American pope, showed signs he refused to be elected, said the informed media.

8 years later, after Benedict exhausted all possibilities for himself, his team of ageing secretaries, and numerous scandals dated back from John Paul 2, finally resigned to make history. We all remember the events around the election in 2013 only months ago. How on earth those same cardinals who didn't eect Bergoglio in 2005 at much younger age, elected him now on the respectful age of 76, as the reformer the Catholic church needs? As the Latin American pope the engine of revitalization and the bridge between the developed West and poor South? A bridge between reformers and "Roman" conservatives?

Perhaps indeed the jesuit cardinal had the necessary skills if he scored a landslide victory. The media clearly reported testimonies of other cardinals including Oulett of Montreal, how the votes went towards the Canadian but how he refused IN FAVOR OF BERGOGLIO. I ddon't know how exactly the most restricted club in the world that of the cardinals make their decisions to elect new pope among themselves. They theoretically could elect every man who could be potentially a bishop. So they did what they did, and we have the worthy 2005 contender as 2013 victorious pope Francis. Things happen in life. Now we expect that 76 year old jesuit to face centuries old bureaucracy and to fight with it successfully. Everyone has a different wish. Francis appointed a dozen of cardinals leaded by another papabile Maradiaga of Honduras to reform the Curia. So far so good. Everyone is in expectation watching the calendar.

The bad happens when the things revert back to older status. October 13 passed without anything to happen besides the private prayer of Francis to the Madonna of Fatima. The discussions should he re-consecrate the world or mention Russia (as allegedly asked by the Virgin in 1941 confessions of Lucia of Fatima), were crossed by his decision to do neither of them!

Now we have a new setback with Medjugorje. You see, the people who devoted 30 years of their lives to that wouldn't accept all that circus very lightly. Forgiveness yes, but there are limits of endurance.

As one can see from the previous posts that endurance breaks thru other holes in what should be centuries old hierarchy driven fortress of roman catholicism. It seems the fortress now is only in Rome and concerns only the Romans how to control better 1/5 of the world. It is unacceptable by the standards of today. It is not according to the Gospel. It is not what Jesus told Peter, etc. it is power struggle of highest degree that empires like the Soviet Union may envy. They were much more pluralistic in views.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 03:59 AM
About the US nuns. The scandal of unprecedented revolt started during Benedict's reign and that of CDF chief whose name I always forget, M. a German.

With the election of the new pope, the US nuns expected new attitude too. Instead, they received a letter from CDF chief similar in content with previous directives. CDF chief reportedly said, 'I talked to him' (the pope). So it is how the things are run. He talked to him and that's it.

Who runs the Vatican, isn't it the pope? How about the mass resignations that follow any papal change (by death or by stepping down)? Why Francis restored all of them instantaneously, was it a part of a deal? And so far changed only the secretary of state? It is just ridiculous for the intelligence of the common catholics. It is an absurd. We talk of changes, instead we receive letters from the same man who wrote them down during the FAILED REIGN of Benedict.

Let say it loudly. Benedict resigned because he failed. Because the problems piled up for decades when he, Bertone, Sodano, others were on key positions in the same Vatican under John Paul 2. Who is more or less guilty and the fact Ratzinger wasn't exposed to sex scandals personally, doesn't matter for the large public. THE POLICY OF LATE YEARS OF JP2 AND BENEDICT COMBINED FAILED AND FAILED GREAT. It is a time the princes of the catholic church that include the bishops not only the cardinals, to realize we are not in 1989 cheerfully walking together thru the ruined Berlin Wall.

We are now a quarter of a century later and we were exposed to a knowledge of other kind (ET), along with crises never seen since Hitler, as well as sexual issues that cannot be put aside under non-understandable Latin terms.

The church headquarters are totally outdated, and the bishops struggle to remain "faithful" while balancing with the demands of their people. Faithful to what? To 12th century absurd? Take the matter in hands and change it. Did cardinal Maradiaga the head of the 'change team' approve the letter to ban Medjugorje visionary in another country (USA) from having public apparitions? Let face the truth. There is a struggle in the Vatican and the catholic church is involved in it although reluctantly. it MATTERS who wins. It MATTERS what Our Lady says. It MATTERS what tomorrow's issues will bring, such as the ET. It MATTERS whom the Vatican is allied with (the ET) since the time of Pius 12 and John 23. Otherwise, a new church will be reborn. As this one can trace back to Peter but certainly not to Peter's time as structure, rather to 3-4 century at most. Things can change.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 04:23 AM
Churches, tell us the truth of ET-angels and aliens-demons here are the new issues to be dealt with, paralel to sexual and social ones.
I just don't have more words. The cardinalate is an absurd not found in the Gospel and not found in the sister churches in the East. The election process itself, and also the decision making process should be always synod-based and not administration driven. These are basic apostolic principles that the roman church did not follow for quite long time. Perhaps no one in 15th century imagined the catastrophe that will follow as a result. The problem is not what they believed back then. The problem is today's hierarchies believe the same. It is not Gospel-driven process. It is power grabbing process.
There should be a mechanism in which the common catholics to say their preferences as who should be their bishop, at least in general terms if not by voting on several names. It is not God who appoints them it is someone in the hierarchy who can sin. Even the pope. BTW the dogma of ...whatever is quite new, not approved by sister churches, and limited to cases that only few ever know. In other words, in all these matters the pope is as sinful as everyone of us. Much more his secretaries! The crisis the Roman church faces is existential. There isn't the need to put on collision course larger and larger masses unhappy of this and that absurd decisions taken by no consensus but in a totalitarian way. Perhaps Marx has still to learn. Or perhaps that is exactly the sinister plan to ruin the roman church ultimately. You decide. The eastern churches are not that more democratic, rather more representative for their societies. Perhaps a third model is needed that combines the apostolic succession with vital new forms of vivid structure that does not exist for the sake of the structure or her top members. It is a pity the biggest christian church on earth just cannot find the right way. Perhaps it is not meant to survive it for long. It is not Peter's church, it is Constantine's. So are the Eastern ones. Only they managed to pass by easier in history with less weight than the roman.

When shall we talk of the banned books of early christians and the consequences of the christian life today, or Dead sea scrolls, or some new issues I mentioned before, if all or attention is concentrated to the next power struggle at the top? Isn't it better St Peter's dome to be vacated or even to collapse by the mighty hand of God (as shown on those lightning strikes) and the pope to start it from scratch somewhere in the nature? Just saying. The first christians didn't need domes and internet. They needed Jesus Christ.

If Medjugorje is a true apparition, war on Rome will follow. The Yugo-bishops ruled negatively and the country was stricken by the most unimaginable war in post WW2. Now Vatican bans a seer that does nothing wrong in terms of collective prayers, even if he doesn't see the Virgin. If he does, however, a strike will follow. Our Lady will strike the snake wherever it is. Paul 6 said about the smoke of staan inside the vatican, did he not?
edit on 8-11-2013 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 05:03 AM
The CDF or the former Inquisition headquarters
"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (C.D.F.) (Latin: Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei), formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, from where the names Roman Inquisition or "Holy Inquisition" arose.[note 1] It is informally known in many Catholic countries as the Holy Office (i.e. Santo Oficio) and after 1904 was termed as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office. It is the oldest among the nine congregations of the Roman Curia."

The man who did it
"Gerhard Ludwig Müller (born 31 December 1947) is a Catholic archbishop and prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since his appointment by Pope Benedict XVI, on 2 July 2012."

my best guess to share with all who care about, is that all belongs to the history. With heights and falls but history. Let it remain there for future generations to learn about. It is not quite needed to decide our problems. It is not helpful. It hurts, to say the least. Our Lady is above that. So is Our Lord. The inquisition cannot rule on that. But it does! Then just shut it down. It is a time.

Or...the roman church will shut down altogether rather soon.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 05:25 AM
Pope Francis himself said the structures and the people are too many, old, and that the canonical law is not found in the Gospel. May be quoting the pope is the best way to convince catholics, yes?
...the pope and the reformist cardinals leaded by Maradiaga ought to shut down not only the inquisition, but many more outdated structures. If not all of them and build the church from the start.

1. Do you think the inquisition should still play any role in the life of the 1.2 bln catholics, if not of all christians?
2.Do you think they will follow any recommendation of the inquisition office from now on, be it in the area of apparitions or of more intimate matters?

3.Do you think the manner in which the decision on Medjugorje was taken has anything to do with transparency and slightest "synod-like", democracy or simply hearing the voice of the people, even if you don't believe in Medjugorje?

4. Or you think the power strike is just what the Catholic church needs today for this and other issues?
Do you think pope Francis shall continue in that style, or rather the vice versus?

5.And if he continues in that style, do you think he will be successful in the so loudly trumped reform?

6. How do you see the Roman catholic church after 10 years if not in a longer period?
edit on 8-11-2013 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 06:54 AM

How can a said "hoax" become supernatural, of God? God doesn't work this way.

Which is more proof that Garbandal isn't of God.
It's an admitted hoax. Anything supernatural surrounding it can't be of God.

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 06:58 AM
Actually Ivan should belong to the US bishops' conference, is it not? The apparitions occur there. What has to do a 20 year old decision of a non-existent bishops' conference in a non-existent country today, that is former Yugoslavia? They have no power over Ivan, since he is American citizen. And even if he was not, he is not a citizen of Yugoslavia, neither he is under the control of a NON-EXISTENT bishops' conference.
edit on 8-11-2013 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 8 2013 @ 07:59 AM
the times have been shortened. IMO we are going to experience the Chastisement immediately without any Great Warning and Miracle, because of the free will and rejection of many people. The Chastisement will be preceded only by the rapture or rescue whatever kind it might take. This is not visionary this is logic.

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