WARNING: Demonic Influences

reply to post by InhaleExhale


It seems that some Christians are still uncomfortable with being the presence of people who are not Christian. I am a Christian, but the longer I live, I notice that the Christianity I believe in is so vastly different than others of the same faith.

It's like there is a disconnect from those others and me. This is what I thought about and prayed about and discussed with God about "God, I want to know you above what all these different churches that have placed man-made tradition onto people and I want to know you as you are"

So what do you suppose happened? As I began searching more about God, I began to learn that God is not easily understood in intellectualism, and the more I thought I knew, I realized how little I do know. But I am conceding my human perspective that tries to explain God.

Why do you suppose He uses the simple things to confound the wise? Because our intellect can lead us into vaunting of our own prideful nature. I am certainly not a holier-than-thou, I have seen that in my life and the damages from it.

reply to post by Cuervo


Thanks, Cuervo, well delineated. The top two on your list are mine (as promised in my first response to this hysterical thread - which should be trashed as it is an attack on ME, and against T&C)

However,

- Why Won’t the West Defend Middle Eastern Christians?
- Critical of Islam

Not critical of Islam, but actually critical of Evangelical End-Times-Hastening Christians, who are doing nothing to support their "Christian brethren" still living in the Middle East.

That said, I appreciate your support. If the OP takes another shot at me, I'll alert it. If he wants to 'debate me', (which he clearly doesn't - since he brought it up here and has failed to hold up his argument) he can.

He can do it in ANY of the threads I have made that have NOTHING to do with him. Cowardly. Pigeon-holing and condemning other members is not cool, or good, or Christian. Not at all.

Blue_Jay33
But I know what you are saying. Perhaps we need a new sub-forum for atheists and agnostics, then when they come into this forum and post stuff like "the bible is a myth" in every thread they can be sent to there own forum.

That right there is my biggest beef that I'll side with Christians on. As much as it insults me when Christians gasp "PERSECUTION!", it annoys me even more when a Christian topic is met with "It's all a fairy tale, /thread" or something equally off-topic and non-constructive.

I don't think a new forum is the answer but I would like to see those posts more quickly eliminated. I know I've said this analogy a thousand times but it's like if there was a thread discussing a movie plot and somebody barged in and said "It's a movie and not real, /thread".

Those posters don't realize that it makes themselves look incapable of understanding what discussions and debates even are.

reply to post by Cuervo


It amazes me that people like the OP use terms Flock, Lord, Master ect do they not realize that all this type of speech was put in (the Bible) to make people follow and accept their human masters/lords etc, we are not sheep we are not slaves.
They are willingly accepting slavery we have an amazing mind which is brilliant at critical thinking but many just accept what is taught to them and refuse to question any of it.
Freewill? they are trying to tell you that it is a bad thing and that is what the Human masters who were in control when the bible was edited want you to believe even to this day.
Flyersfan is the only person on ATS who I would call a "Christian" never have I heard her judge others and she still uses her own inquiring mind to question her beliefs.
She deserves the million stars she has

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Perhaps we need a new sub-forum for atheists and agnostics, then when they come into this forum and post stuff like "the bible is a myth" in every thread they can be sent to there own forum.

Atheists and agnostics are here because we WANT TO STUDY RELIGION, FAITH, and THEOLOGY. What would be more 'comfy' for the Christians is for them to have their own forum, insulated from the doubters and challengers. Then they won't get their panties in a twist or their boxers in a bunch, and they won't feel so 'persecuted and 'browbeaten.'

They can just pat each other on the back and carry on with their blind faith based on hearsay free of molestation.

That's NOT what THIS forum is for. These topics (religion, faith, and theology) are AGE-OLD controversies, since the beginning of time. Christians DO NOT have a monopoly on religion, faith, or theology...OR SALVATION. They just THINK they do. And their condescending "I ask everyone to pray for Wildtimes" is utterly pathetic, weak-minded, and reeks of arrogance.

This forum exists PRECISELY for open discussion and debate about ALL forms of religion, their strengths, weaknesses, shortcomings, accomplishments, history, and the growing understanding of them all.

It's a fluid human phenomenon. If people are scared of being corrected or challenged, why on Earth would they come here?

reply to post by wildtimes


Wildtimes,

I think we discussed one time my criticism of Christians who live in a bubble and can't see their Christian brothers and sisters in other countries. You are so right on that.

American Christians live in a bubble and can't see what is going on sometimes in their own churches. If they can't see that close, how are they going to see that far?

I have pointed out to people about the killings of Christians in churches in other countries and not one single Christian ever responded about it. That makes me sad to think that Coptic Christians are being shot, burned, raped, tortured and murdered in their churches and homes, and American Christians are not in an uproar over it. But let a non-Christian disagree with them, then they get upset and cry, like they are persecuted.

@American Christians,
You have it the easiest of any time Christianity has ever been in this world. You aren't sitting in your homes worried that a rocket is going to blast into it. You aren't worried that your spouse may be raped in front of you, or your child taken from you at gun-point, in the name of religion. You have it easy. You can get into your car and drive to McDonald's listening to Christian radio, with bumper stickers plastered all over your car, and you don't have a thing to worry about.

But your Christian brothers and sisters are being persecuted elsewhere. It's time to get your heads out of the sand, stop acting like babies when people disagree with you, and be grown-up enough to start addressing the problems in your homes, your churches and your own lives before trying to clean someone else's house.

reply to post by Cuervo


Cuervo

I made a thread about the non-objective view of Halloween, asking people what they thought about the commercialization of it. Our dialogue was pleasant and informing. I have to say that you responded with respect and I hope you walked away knowing that at the end of the thread, I still respected your position.

I even pointed back to your thread when people asked something or made a statement. Sometimes though, non-objectivity can't be reached, it is very subjective for most people. I took a lot of flack from Christians when I said I don't celebrate Halloween. But that's my right not to, I didn't say others couldn't. I simply asked a question.

FlyersFan

beansidhe
If there is only one truth, why does nobody agree on it? It can't be that obvious.

Truth is truth. If humans can't agree what is really truth then that's not a surprise.
And even if people agreed on what truth is, that doesn't mean that they got it right.
The human animal is exceptionally stupid and stubborn.

I'm confused. Are you saying I am stupid because I want to question another's stance? Truth is surely relative to the beholder?
I asked a question, and was bombarded with passages from the bible. That is not 'truth'. That is biblical scripture. If I asked a question on a say, philosophy or paranormal thread, someone would answer calmly and politely. Not throw passages from a relevant text at me, and treat me like an idiot. And suggest I'm a demon?? (Not you, obviously)

It is a shame that Christianity cannot be discussed without Christians feeling like they cannot show the qualities to others that they preach about so readily.

reply to post by 2WitnessesArrived


Why would anyone here attack "Buddhism"? It is beyond reproach. Unless you're a Bible-Thumping Christian who thinks they are heathen blasphemers and unbelievers, or you are China.

Buddhism is the ONE religion that I would be FINE with the entire world embracing. The Abrahamics (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are the source of ALL religious strife on this planet.

Corporate Greed, and apathy for - or exploitation of - others are just as much a cancer for humanity as religious condemnation and self-righteousness.

reply to post by Fraudfinder

I am a part of his flock.

One of the weak, lost, sickly ones, I take it. All ba-a-a and no guts, but willing to pick a fight despite your ignorance.

Do you too want to be a part of this flock?

You must mean, by "this flock", the ones that create drive-by, juvenile, unsupported (and insupportable) attack posts on other members, are too cowardly to stand up and defend their assumptions or to hang in there and debate about it, and when corrected, simply RUN AWAY. Right?

Just my observation. Same as you made an observation about me. FEEL FREE to correct me if I'm wrong. WARNING: Christian newbies and fragile followers: this thread is NOT an example of intelligent discourse. Don't do things like this, and you'll be fine here, and learn something.

See what I did there?

If you (or anyone) is gonna dish it out, then be prepared to sit there like an adult and take the results of what you've sown - be a grown-up, and eat what you have reaped. Oh, but...But you can't take it, can you? Can you?!! No, you can't. All you can do is cry, "I, a sheep, am a victim."

(Pathetic).

beansidhe
I'm confused. Are you saying I am stupid because I want to question another's stance?

I have no idea what you are talking about. And I didn't throw any scripture quotes at you.
And I didn't say YOU were stupid. People in general are.

You said this - If there is only one truth, why does nobody agree on it? It can't be that obvious.

I pretty much said that somewhere there really is one truth, but people are stupid animals
and won't be able to find it. And even if everyone agrees on what 'the truth' is .. that doesn't
mean they actually figured it out. People are generally stupid ... look at the situation in
the world .... that pretty much proves it.

wildtimes
The Abrahamics (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are the source of ALL religious strife on this planet.

Yep. Pretty much.
I have yet to come across a nasty Wiccan or a self righteous Hindu or Buddhist.
But I've encountered plenty of Muslims and Christians who delight in the thought of
others going to hell because they worship differently then they do.

FlyersFan

wildtimes
The Abrahamics (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are the source of ALL religious strife on this planet.

Yep. Pretty much.
I have yet to come across a nasty Wiccan or a self righteous Hindu or Buddhist.
But I've encountered plenty of Muslims and Christians who delight in the thought of
others going to hell because they worship differently then they do.

Believe it or not, I have met some very smug Wiccans. Especially the one guy who came to work out my car. He told me all about the handfasting with his now wife, then proceeded to flirt with me, then proceeded to ask me for a massage, then asked me to do.....all while telling me that my Christian husband should not mind. Hmmm...he was tossed out my house and didn't finish working on my car.

This same guy told me that Christianity was an evil religion and that he knew it all. But I don't think he represents all Wiccans. My brother identifies himself as a Celtic Pagan, and was a Wiccan at one time. He can get very smug at times as well. So yes, I do know some.

I did work with a Hindu lady, she was very interesting. She did have a problem with Christianity, but never said we were going to hell. I asked her about those untouchables, and she said they deserve being untouchable. I think she was shocked when she came to the United States and realized we don't have a caste system.

So, yes, it is in other religions as well.

But Hinduism would be fine if they didn't have the caste system or the untouchables. I have an issue with people being called untouchable.

WarminIndy
So, yes, it is in other religions as well.

Oh .. I"m sure it is. It's part of human nature and our psychology and all that.
It's just that I MYSELF haven't encountered it from any of them except the
Abrahamic religions. That's all.

Of course, it could just be because I'm around the Abrahamic religions more than
the Hindus and Wiccans etc etc .... So you never know.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Forgive me, I was genuinely confused with your response. I see what you mean now, thank you for your reply.
I didn't imply, or rather didn't mean to imply that you quoted scripture at me. I was referring to the two other posters who responded earlier in the thread. I wrote 'not you' in brackets, but I clearly didn't explain myself very well. Sorry about that. (Probably because I'm stupid - only joking!)

In response though, I don't think humans are stupid. I think most of us are better educated than we have ever been at any point in history. And it's talking rationally and calmly about things that enables us to learn, as you have just demonstrated. Maybe the author of this thread will take a leaf out of your book.

Best wishes

reply to post by EnochWasRight

There is a simple answer. The Christian has a hope and continually seeks to confirm that hope. The Atheist has no hope, but is continually seeking to ensure that the hope of the Christian is not correct. Essentially, the Christian seeks the true Hope from faith (with evidence) and the Atheist hopes he is not wrong, continually trying to deny the hope of the Christian. The reason they keep coming back is because the truth is evident. When it becomes painfully evident, they will be required to either face truth or deny it completely. This is the ultimate end to anyone who rejects the truth.

Both are seeking the same answer. One denies ignorance and the other denies (ignores) truth. Ignorance is ignoring truth.

I have always found it interesting that Christians (not exclusively mind you) accuse atheists of having "no hope". I have hope, I hope for many things.

I do not believe in God or gods because I do not know if they exist. Do I hope they exist? It would be great if some positive interpretation of God turned out to be true and that an afterlife where I could be with the ones I love for eternity, again that would be great. But yes there are some things I hope are not true as well, like some tyrannical God who demands worship and hands out demerits for arbitrary acts which he deems sin.

The reason I read these forums is because I'm curious and I constantly question not only other peoples beliefs but my own as well.

WarminIndy
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

And that's the sum total of the debate, what IS the Good News?

When Jesus said it, it was not only He was the good news, but that the kingdom of God is at hand. But the good news is to bring hope, not damnation. That's where it all went wrong for Christianity, when hope was replaced by fire and brimstone preaching about hell for everyone who isn't Christian.

We are not the judges of their hearts or their eternity, that we have to leave up to God. Johnathan Edwards really took that stance in Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God. That Puritanical doctrine led to killing innocent people.

I had a pastor one time many years ago, who died in 1979 when I was young, but I remember very clearly what he said "Don't ever preach someone into hell and not preach to them hope". This pastor, and understand that my parents didn't feel the need to be faithful to church and taking us faithfully, said many practical things that stick with me today. What do you think about this...as people were judging other people for teenage pregnancies in their families, and he was against the high-minded proud, holier-than-thou people, he said something one time that I remember to this day "It is just as easy to get pregnant in the back seat of a car as it is in the back of a wagon". What he meant was that it doesn't matter, it happens to all parts of society, so quit judging on others for not being as wealthy or whatever.

Of all the preachers I have known in my life, he was the most compassionate and practical. He didn't ever preach against poor people, he never preached against those of the "lower class", which I was from.

But never preach someone into hell if you can't preach them hope. Of all the people Jesus preached to about hell, who were the ones He was talking about? The unprofitable servant, the rich man and those who do evil, even those who do it in His name.

He wasn't against the rich, He was against those who use wealth to hurt others.

I apologize if I mislead you. I don't preach "Hell and Fire" but the bible sure does. What I am say is this:

Romans 10:9 - Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think this verse is so more true today then when it was written.

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That was the Good NEWS!!!

wildtimes
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

I am a part of his flock.

One of the weak, lost, sickly ones, I take it. All ba-a-a and no guts, but willing to pick a fight despite your ignorance.

Do you too want to be a part of this flock?

You must mean, by "this flock", the ones that create drive-by, juvenile, unsupported (and insupportable) attack posts on other members, are too cowardly to stand up and defend their assumptions or to hang in there and debate about it, and when corrected, simply RUN AWAY. Right?

Just my observation. Same as you made an observation about me. FEEL FREE to correct me if I'm wrong. WARNING: Christian newbies and fragile followers: this thread is NOT an example of intelligent discourse. Don't do things like this, and you'll be fine here, and learn something.

See what I did there?

If you (or anyone) is gonna dish it out, then be prepared to sit there like an adult and take the results of what you've sown - be a grown-up, and eat what you have reaped. Oh, but...But you can't take it, can you? Can you?!! No, you can't. All you can do is cry, "I, a sheep, am a victim."

(Pathetic).

edit on 11/7/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

You have validated my point. Thank you

''

reply to post by Fraudfinder


Your point being you want only Christians to post in the thread, and cry that you are being persecuted when someone disagrees with you and your club.
Religion needs to be attacked, it has had it's chance and knacked it all up, good job people are getting educated and leaving religion in droves..three or four generations and it will be gone, then humanity can get on with its job to reach for the stars.

reply to post by Fraudfinder



If you want to attack me, DO IT LIKE A MAN. Your post above proclaiming "THE GOOD NEWS" makes it EXCLUSIVE to Christians, and damns ALL OTHERS to hell. THAT is the main problem with your brand of Christianity.

WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS THREAD? Others who have tried this transparent style of attack on specific members have been banned, or had their threads trashed. YOU do not own this site. YOU do not have exclusive rights to heaven over all who question Christianity.

Why, if you're so concerned about the threads that I and others make, don't you respond IN THEM, rather than just "assuming" you know what they will discuss and be about?

Talk about fragile. NO, I have NOT made your point. You can throw one liners "claiming" that I have, all day. Now suck it up and ANSWER DIRECTLY my rebuttal to your puerile premise in the OP.

SEVERAL of us have disputed your 'presented motives' that you call "our agenda." IT'S NOT for you to decide who 'should' and 'should not' read these fora. They represent an ongoing search for the Truth, and are open to the public for comment and reading.

Keep it up, and I will report you to the mods. If you don't want that to happen, then SPEAK UP. YOU started the thread. Hiding behind others who you think "agree" with you, and having NOTHING else to say, is lame. it's not even a legitmate "thread" - it's a one-off counter-attack on threads that YOU think 'threaten' people's belief systems. That you're now unwilling to participate in except to further attack ME.

You started it. Your target is here. NOW DRIVE IT, or abandon ship. You've been shown to be mistaken, narrow-minded, accusatory, and WRONG about why people come here. Deal with it. You're heartily welcome to come into ANY of my threads and thump away - and I will rebutt, or agree, but I WILL respond. You started this as an inflammatory attack on non-Christians - NOW MAN-UP AND MIND THE FLAMES. Or, not. Be a coward and go hide behind others of "your flock," now that you've tossed your match onto the fire. "Aaarggh! The fire is out of control!! The one that I started!"

You know why? Because you didn't ASK what people's agendae were, you DECIDED what they were, and you were WRONG. Acknowledge it, or zip it. It's called libel, false witness, ignorance, and a foul either way.