Israel launches strike on Gaza City

Yeah it is a shame.It also makes the future a little scary.If they are training a generation of killers.It also puts the U.S, Isreal and other countries in a real bind.If we were to take out Arafat and Hamas now the backlash we would get would be huge.But if nothing is done then we are going to have to deal with a whole generation of killers.Then its going to get real messy.

In the New York Post today they had a picture with palestinian children holding guns and aiming them at a "replica" of a Jewish settlement they built. When the kids were questioned to as what they were doing they said killing Jews. This is one of the reasons why Arafat needs to go. As for precious lives, yeah I'm a little annoyed that 19 terrorist low lifes killed 3,000 of my countrymen, and 5 more died studying at a college in Israel like nyeff said, so I'm not going to care when I hear on the news that 20 Afghan's were massacred in a firefight with American troops or 2 palestinian suicide bomber�s were shot and killed by Israeli police.

^^
one word;
four syllables.
sounds like propaganda to me.

TC and Nyeff:
so, Arafat is still in charge? i don't think so. our own government refuses to deal with him...and even though most of the PLO has been dismantled they hold him accountable for controlling the masses...with what? his finger, i suppose. think we can safely say the palestinians have been robbed of any type of ruling body. (as Sharon wished it) Suicide bombers mostly act alone. they are trained but they seek the training. what we have here is what people are left with when they have no government to protect them from an agressive nation-state. chaos.

Sure he's still in charge.If Palestine actully wanted peace then it would Arafat who would walk up to the table.Since Arafat and Hamas and the other "splinter terrorists groups" don't want peace we won't have to worry about it.

Do you think that the Palestinians are saying "Gee, America and Israel aren't dealing with Arafat, so we should ignore him too!"? I see no evidence from my limited viewpoint.
SWpeaking of evidence, I didn't notice anti-Palestinian progaganda in the story, either in the photos or the film footage. If it is anti-Palestinian propaganda, they put it out themselves. Gee, Saph, it seems you are once again selective about who does the murdering. I would have thought someone who claims to be anti-murder and anti-hate and all would have come out like a gang-buster, all against teaching little children blind hatred and the skills to kill other people; particularly women and children. I figured you'd have been against a group teaching their children that the mass murdering of others is proper, and that the genocide of the Jewish population is a righteous goal.
*TC puts the pebble back in his pocket, walking away with a broken heart*

propaganda: the spreading of ideas or information to further or damage a cause

the story seems to fit the defination so i will not retract my statement, nor do i find it contrary to any of my beliefs to call that which is a fox, a fox. plus, i've already told you what you can do with that rock of your's anyway, TC.

as for Arafat, his rule was on the decline before he was held captive by Sharon. he has no power for he has no authority to control. unless you are saying he can control without power? and he has been left powerless. he has no allies for they've jumped ship like rats. there's no more demon to point the finger at...just a lot of enraged blood thristy palestinians willing to die before they give in to being controlled by what they see as thieves.

now, with that said you know how i feel, why do you keep this up. violence is never necessary and it's not revolutionary--how can it be when it's the same ole business as usual...so, no i don't consider suicide bombers or any terrorist just in their actions against isreal or any peoples. Sharon and Arafat are both equally insane to me and who suffers, that's easy, as always the people.

[Edited on 18-8-2002 by Saphronia]

It wasn't we, or Israel, who gave Arafat his power. The training of the children at the terrorist summer camp was conducted by his own terrorist organization.

The information is just that - information. The facts remain the same.

Interesting, if it is a release that is damaging to the U.S. in specific or western values in general, it must be the truth. This, complete with photos and footage, must be propaganda against Palestinians, therefore it is to be discounted.

Once agtain, I'd like to see them target their Arab "brothers", the ones that forced them in this situation in the first place. Oh yeah, you see them as blameless, only the Jews must pay for the Palestinian situation.

Hipocritical. Biased. Not objective thinking.

If Arafat is no loger in control,why do the U.S., Isreal, the UN look to him to condem terrorist attacks?I think he is a befuddled old fool, but he still the one people look to for answers.As far as palestine goes.I'd be willing to bet that if Arafat said he wanted peace with Isreal,the U.S. would tell Israel to go to the table.

TC, do not put words into my mouth. this isn't about america and just like with anything i look beyond the story to who wrote it and what purpose does it forefill. in most cases information is not only information, it's a tool or weapon. i take everything i read with a grain of salt. i read both sides for i have a mind of my own. if those things you suggested were propaganda i would call them as i saw them as well.

as for you calling me bias? i have already told you i have little interest in who gets what and where they put it...it's just sad that the murdering continues and yes i have formed my own conclusions from looking at the situation but bias, that's the wrong word, my friend for i have no stock in the situation i'm neither jew nor muslim nor christian.

it is Sharon that hasn't sat down once to talk peace since he has been in office. it is Sharon that continues to allow settlements and cut off roads in the West Bank enraging and inciting the palestinians. it is Sharon who opposes a palestinian state. it is Sharon who refuses any kind of peace talk and instead chooses tit-for-tat murder. the body counts are rising on both sides but you seem to feel isreal is blameless and you accuse me of being bias? tell me Sharon is a man of peace. tell me none of these things are true of Sharon. i'm really interested in your opinion, cause to me he is no better than Arafat. they are the same man just on different sides. and what does that say of isreal, that they elect an "Arafat" of their own?



[Edited on 19-8-2002 by Saphronia]

As far as I know Isreal will withdraw from Gaza,if Paestine can control the violence.Isreal made that statement on sunday 8/18/02. I'm curious to see who screws it up.My money is on Hamas.

Saph, you need to come to grips that you are biased, and I have not put words in your mouth; go back and read what you have posted and figure out the most direct route from whence I came.

Sharon a "man of peace"? You have a very unrealistic notion of peace. He can't afford to sit down with a group of stoned hippies and sing Kumbaya. At least he hasn't stopped by at any of my parties!

As usual, you refuse to see anyone at fault except Israel. You won't even bother to acknowledge that the trouble began with the other Arabs and is being perpetuated by the other Arabs. It is all evil ol' Israel's fault, and problem to solve. And the way to solve it is to give away their land.

But you have a disclaimer of you don't have a dog in this fight. Why bother showing up to the pit for another bout?

--you crack me up.

i don't know why you bug me so much...but you do and that's why i fuss with you and sometimes at you.

at any rate, you can believe that Sharon is protecting isreal all you want, it doesn't make it true. since he has been around the streets have gotten bloodier and bloodier, that's the reality. he's insane for starting a battle he doesn't have the guts or support to finish. but, isreal is a democracy so i will pray for them to wake up to the disaster Sharon is to their economy and safety.

Because I'm a lovable tyke, you gorgeous lady, and you know it!

I don't know what Sharon is up to, I can't say that for certain, and nobody else can either. That is only known to Sharon.

I find it stupid to play footsies with those who are out for the destruction of not only your nation but your entire race. Arafat is a terrorist, that is where he came from, and his hands are wet from new blood. The man should have been taken out a long time ago. That's just my opinion, though and without the intel briefings that Sharon receives every day.

Why should the burden be placed on Israel, just because it is a democratic nation? The surrounding nations should not be relieved of their responsibilities just because the religion is not friendly to democracy; they should certainly be expected to provide both land and economic support to their brethren that they manipulated into pawns so many decades ago.

And while they are at that, I think the rest of the world should see about giving them a hand up (not a hand out) as well. If we want to be in the business of nation-building, why not there as well?

First, I'd like to see the Arab nations accept their responsibilities.

I've read the book, though, and I know how it is going to end. They aren't going to help these people.

BTW, if it means anything to you, I don't think you're seething with hatred, just a victim of others' "explanation" of what is what. It is easy to do. It doesn't matter whether you're democratic or republican, liberal or conservative, taking the word of either our public education system, the talking heads on Fox News or our own church's pastors; they all seem to have an agenda. I fear it is only going to get harder to grasp as the history revisionists (on both sides) are only going to get much better. Up to date, I feel I have an extreme leg up on the politics, and what is internationally wrong and right. To be honest with you, though, by the time my son is of college age things will be to the point where "they" have information controlled to the point its worse than any sci-fi writer could imagine.

you don't honestly believe that i feel palestinians have a right to self-determination because i seen it on tv ??? please tell me i'm misunderstanding you.

i think it's isreal's "problem" because it is isreal's problem. is it not isreali's that are being attacked? isn't the root cause sited by the palestinian public occupation? they have the power to stop this at anytime...as long as they prevent an independant palestine they will suffer from terror attacks. those that wish to only "kill jews" will not have a huge following once the land is divided and palestine starts to build an independant democracy. the goverments will be able to cut off the head and soon the body will die. oh, and you don't have to tell me what Arafat is, i agree with you and i'm glad he's over, as i will be when Sharon is over.

Look, they made their decision many years ago. They had the possibility to live with the Jewish folk, but they listened to their "brethren". It is not just as simple as the Israelis coughing up land and the Palestinians being autonomous and everyone lives happily ever after. That is incredibly naive, and it ignores the stated intention of Arab organizations of ridding the region of the Jewish subhumans.

So, because it is the Israelis that are being attacked, it is their responsibility to give in to the attackers. I don't buy that. We'll see what the future holds, and we'll see without having any so-so. However the solution comes about or what it is, I hope it comes soon and without the suffering of the children.

why not divide up the land? weren't there palestinians living there to begin with? it's kinda unfair that squatters get to chose but it can be deemed fair since isreal "won" certain lands in war/murder, that the land be divided up into two states. the only logical solution that doesn't involve genocide or forced eviction is two independant democracies, and isreal has the power to make that happen. while the arab states may have had some influence in the past...i don't think a people given the chance to determine their own destiny will give that up easily to another nation-state. that's just my opinion.

and of course i agree, the killing should stop, not only of children but of men and women as well.

You forget, Israel was not the one that aggressed. The Palestinians left their homes and took up with their "brothers" who promised them that together, they could push the Jews into the sea and have everything. Their attempt at genocide failed. Eventually, one side will be totally wiped out, but it will be the house of Esau, not the houses of Jacob or Joseph.
That tells me that the Arab "brothers" are not going to help the Palestinians even though they used those poor people as pawns against the Jews and caused them to lose a very nice stake in a prosperous nation in an attempt to wipe the Jew out.

There are consequences to such actions. I don't feel that Israel is responsible at all, I feel the Arab "brothers" owe the Palestinians, but I feel that if the Palestinians were to destroy the terrorist organizations and become civilized people, there's no telling what would become.
Whatever good comes will come from the Israelis; they aren't teaching hate and murder to their children.

TC, if you insist on blaming the Arab nations, let's just throw Great Britian in there with them. it was "Great" Britian that decided that the jews should go home in the first place...no one was considering the fact that the jews had no home to go back to...so the "Great" Britian is to blame...oh no, let's blame all of Europe, seeing as how they couldn't live side by side with a jew...so they decided to make it the arabs problem expecting them to not only live side by side with them but under their rule...sounds right, blame Europe. ooops, can't forget the US, after all they did pick up the cross after "Great" Britian put it down...no, wait, blame me...i am just a little brown girl from the mid-west who gets her kicks off of shootin hoops and reading shakespeare, but surely i had something to do with it.

(all jokes aside, isreal should do the right thing and end this...stop looking for someone to blame and just end it)

[Edited on 24-8-2002 by Saphronia]

There has never been a time when Jews weren't there, so it isn't like they ever abandoned the area.

It wasn't Great Britain that said, "C'mon, leave your homes, take up with us and we'll teach the Jews how to swim!" They made their choice, and as you said in another forum, there are consequences to one's actions. Or does that only go for who you think it should?

You are right. It is time for this to end. It is time for the Arabs to help their poor, downtrodden kinfolk and give them a piece of property to call home. They have more than enough, and it should be easier on the Palestinians to have fellow Arabs as neighbors.

It's funny, (or sad); had they just done the right thing, they would have it made right now. They wouldn't be second class citizens or suspected of being enemies of the state. Many of their Jewish neighbors pleaded with them to not go and side against them. Now, you think the victor is obliged to defeat itself. Wrong. Absolutely wrong and unreasonable to the point of insanity. However, if anyone does do anything on behalf of the Palestinian, it will be the Jew, their enemy, and not their brother Arab, their "ally".

There was a person that had the same exact views as you saphronia, his name was Hitler. In fact that's what I'm going to call you from now on, ok Hitler? Have a nice day