Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Ancestry Syndrome

page: 1
7
<<   2 >>

log in

join

posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 04:24 PM
link   
I was researching epigenetics when I came upon a link for Ancestry Syndrome. Being a person who researches my own ancestry, I checked it out. What I found was fascinating to me and I hope to you as well. Perhaps some can take it further and also give examples in your own ancestry.

Here is the most recent definition of epigenetics from Wiki
the study of mitotically and/or meiotically heritable changes in gene function that cannot be explained by changes in DNA sequence

Lest someone try to call epigentics pseudo science, courses are being taught at Harvard, Cornell, Kings College in London, Texas A&M and Baylor, just to name a few.

Ancestry Syndrome was put forth by Anne Ancelin Schützenberger after 50 years of research in psychotherapy. She was born in 1919 and is now in her 90's..

The best example I could find was from behavioral social science blogspot


Her book includes fascinating case studies to illustrate how her clients have conquered seemingly irrational fears, psychological and even physical difficulties by discovering and understanding the parallels between their own life and the lives of their forebearers.



The theory of ancestral "invisible loyalty" owed to previous generations may indeed predispose us to unwittingly re-enact their suffering and unfinished business in our own life events



Often the roots of current traumas can be explained by an easy but methodical tracing of our family trees, uncovering important similar events that have been interred into our genetic structures, events which pop-up generations later. Trouble comes from unknowingly reliving similar unfinished situations and emotional baggage inherited from our ancestors. The cycle ends when we recognize that the recurring family issues being presented generation after generation are begging for completion.....and once re-solved, can actually fade away and stop



The Ancestor Syndrome explains life and death issues through the "family tree" and the manner in which memories of past-unresolved traumas and conflicts are passed on to future generations. In her workshops, Psychodrama vignettes will be directed by Prof. Schützenberger with group members and aimed toward unearthing, illustrating, and resolving hidden family traumas, closing incomplete situations, saying good-bye and mourning an ancestor's losses. Efforts are made to understand these phenomena in the larger context of one's family psychological and economical history, "psychohistory", hidden family loyalties, calamitous events, such as war, unbearable trauma, unjust death, family secrets, and the Anniversary Syndrome.


In reading the book the blogger, Fausto Intilla, writes


It hit home. My mother’s mother had died May 25, 1959, and my mother died May 25, 1983. It was then and only then that I found out from my Aunt Irma that my great-grandmother had also died on a May 25th many years ago. "Never two without three," my mother had said a thousand times throughout her life. And mine. A family belief system, for sure. Writing this, my assistant Bobby Hoerner reminds me that I have scheduled Prof. Schützenberger to do her Ancestor Syndrome Workshop for me in New Orleans on May 25th. Coincidence? I don’t think so.


This is an article of someone who is searching for ancestral clues to the secretiveness of a much earlier Jewish conversion by his family.

Now for my account which may be connected to genetic memory.

I began genealogical research in the late 90's. I found my maternal great great-grandmother and immediately was fascinated with her. I seemed to identify with her tho there was nothing in the research at this stage to account for this.

Some years later I learned that she had 'gone crazy' according to family and eventually been placed in a mental institution where she died in 1912. This all seemed to occur after her second husband left her, sometime after 1882 and prior to 1900. Her first husband had died in Missouri on their trek over the trail of tears from Tennessee to Texas.

I left my husband after many long years of an abusive relationship, and met a man about two years later. I won't go into the synchronicities and coincidences in this relationship but they were many. After he left. I went through the most traumatic depression of my life. So I wonder, is this a replay of my great-great grandmother, perhaps with some learning in the interim?

I also have a grandson who came into this world with irrational fears, school being one of them. He would literally have to be dragged out of the car to go to class. When he was in 6th grade my daughter took him out of public school and home schooled through the 8th grade. Ninth grade came and he was fine even enthusiastic about going to school.

So what are your thoughts ATS?

Does anyone else have examples of how this may have played out in your life?



edit on 4-11-2013 by liveandlearn because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 04:59 PM
link   
Epigenetics is for real. Studies on identical twins is conclusive regarding the limits of genetics.

Ancestry Syndrome is an interesting idea. It's been observed that physical and psychological effects from a famine are multi-generational.

The idea that you would finish your ancestors fate or something like that is pretty far fetched. I would propose that the the person seeking the ancestral information might be pre-disposed to adopting part of the identity of their ancestry. The cause of the connection being the living person excising free will and not the dead individual who's fate is truly sealed.

The link between the living and the dead is interesting nonetheless. You die but your memes can certainly live on.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 05:41 PM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


The "ancestry syndrome" idea seems to be a hodgepodge of concepts drawn from epigenetics, genetics, cell memory and reincarnation - all different, really. My fear about stretching the epigenetic concept too far in the wrong way is that like "genetics," it will lead straight to new world Eugenics policies. ng.

The important thing to remember about epigenetic inheritance is that while it is real, it is NOT permanent - and conscious awareness can lead to overcoming negative effects. ...Just scanned your link, which focuses on exactly this point.

She shows how, as mere links in a family chain of generations, we may have no choice in having the events and traumas first experienced by our ancestors visited upon us again in our own lifetime as it once was in theirs. But, as she says, we do have a choice once we realize it.

Her book includes fascinating case studies to illustrate how her clients have conquered seemingly irrational fears, psychological and even physical difficulties by discovering and understanding the parallels between their own life and the lives of their forebearers. Mysteries as to why things happen can now be solved. Inherited ‘bad luck’ can now be changed. Family curses can now be removed. Ancient guilts and sins of the forebearers can now be resolved.


PS. Epigenetic memory is NOT "genetic memory." Kudos for an interesting find though. Good luck on your quest.




reply to post by InverseLookingGlass
 


Yes, epigenetics is for real. Great post overall. Thanks.

edit on 4/11/13 by soficrow because: quote, comments



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 05:49 PM
link   
so i take it no one here has heard of the "ROOTS",,,story about a guy finding his family connections?

was quite a craze a few years back.

"ROOTS",,, pretty much kick started all that Ancient Cemetary,, stuff.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 05:53 PM
link   
reply to post by BobAthome
 


The "Ancestry Syndrome" referred to in the source article is NOT about the current craze - my first assumption too. ...It's an interesting concept but subject to manipulation. Like everything of value I guess.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 05:58 PM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


That's a pretty interesting subject. I've never heard of before but will look into it a bit more.

I can trace my ancestry directly to both the infamous Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman (Of Civil War fame) and Roger Sherman, (this is from wiki: He was the only person to sign all four great state papers of the U.S.: the Continental Association, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.[1] Thomas Jefferson said of him: "That is Mr. Sherman, of Connecticut, a man who never said a foolish thing in his life." (I think I'm failing my family in that regard...LOL) By the way, my last name is not Sherman.

I'm going to have to look into this more as I see a bit more of the General in me (as does family) than the other as I have a hard time suffering fools. Most of the rest of my heritage though was involved in agriculture or the military. I've done a bit of both and for the most part have enjoyed myself.

S&F for enlightening me a bit. I may just make it a hobby.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 06:43 PM
link   
replying to inverselookingglass and soficrow

I am not a qualified researcher in this area, however, my limited understanding is that understanding the source of the problem, as a genetic memory, may affect the brain chemicals surrounding the gene which then effects a change in the expression. I can only identify with having more or less serotonin, nor-epinephrin or dopamine which cause a difference in the way you express yourself as a person, behavioral changes. Now I know the above chemicals are not the ones of interest in the research of epigenetics but my understanding is it works the same way.


Recent work in the field of neurobiology has revealed that epigenetic processes are essential for complex brain functions. For example, recent studies showed that several enzymes that modify DNA or histone proteins are essential elements of signaling pathways, allowing proper neuronal signaling for learning and memory.9 This is because the formation of long-term memory requires that epigenetic processes induce lasting changes in gene expression in brain cells. Mice with dysfunctions in any of the epigenetic components that contribute to these changes can have impaired long-term memory.10,11 Interestingly, some of the cognitive impairments can be reversed by the administration of drugs acting on the defective epigenetic components. Mice with more components favorable to some epigenetic marks have improved memory and better cognitive performance.12-14 These findings suggest that memory performance can easily be modulated, whether impaired or improved, by epigenetic processes.

link

I know I sound invested in the premise but I am only trying to learn



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 08:06 PM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


Interesting...

Some questions for thought:

Are the 4th and 5th generations cleared of this "ancestry syndrome"?: Sins of the father?

Could this not be tied to the process by-which instincts are formed; is it thought to form in a different manner to instincts?

And what about positive psychological traits being passed on as well?



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 09:31 PM
link   

Bleeeeep
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


Interesting...

Some questions for thought:

Are the 4th and 5th generations cleared of this "ancestry syndrome"?: Sins of the father?

Could this not be tied to the process by-which instincts are formed; is it thought to form in a different manner to instincts?

And what about positive psychological traits being passed on as well?


To be sure, I am no longer a christian but I am very familiar with that verse. Always seemed cruel and unfair but with this understanding of epigenetics and Ancestry syndrome it makes more sense.

In my genealogical research I have read that after the fifth generation, ancestry is essentially irrelevant. However, as I read the research, if the problem hasn't been cleared by a prior generation and you have inherited the gene with the epigenectic expression you will have the tendencies associated with it until it is recognized and dealt with by you.

Your second question...knowing I know a miniscule amount about this, I can only say perhaps, if they are false instincts. I say this knowing many instincts are learned and are irrational or not the basic instinct of fear, etc., as was originally bred into us.

3rd question, If negative traits can be bred into us, why not positive? They are not addressed because they pose no problem.

Just my thoughts.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 09:47 PM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


...understanding the source of the problem, as a genetic memory, may affect the brain chemicals surrounding the gene which then effects a change in the expression


You're on the right track in some ways BUT - epigenetic is not "genetic." Genetic is when the genes themselves are altered - epigenetic change can be inherited but NOT through changes in the DNA (genes). Your quote describes epigenetic changes - meaning something alters gene expression but not the genes themselves. ...and yes, epigenetic effects are chemical (when you change gene products, you also alter the products of those products). Main point being, because epigenetic change does not affect genes (only gene products), the effect is not permanent and can be "corrected" by various means. I agree that one of those means is conscious will.

It just happens that I'm a real stickler when it comes to labelling things incorrectly as "genetic" - mainly because there is a movement to re-instate Eugenics policies.


PS. If you click on the "quote" or "reply" button on the top right of a post, the writer is alerted that you're responding. If you don't, they might never know that you answered them. Take care.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 09:53 PM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


...you have inherited the gene with the epigenectic expression you will have the tendencies associated with it until it is recognized and dealt with by you


Inheriting a gene and inheriting an epigenetic trait are two very different things. A "genetic" trait involves changes in DNA or genes; epigenetics does NOT involve changes in genes (just gene expression).


In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene activity which are not caused by changes in the DNA sequence. Unlike simple genetics based on changes to the DNA seqeuence (the genotype), the changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have other causes.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 09:55 PM
link   
This is not going in the direction I had hoped probably due to the dialogue on epigenetics.

I am really interested to know if anyone can think back to their family history and see a trait that has continued or been dealt with and changed.

I was brought up in a dysfunctional family via my mother and grandparents. They were not focused on their children and more into self.

When I married, I put my children first. I didn't know my dad and my mom was always remarrying or with some other man. I stayed with this abusive man because I grew up without a father. I decided to stay when I was getting ready to leave and my daughter said she didn't want to leave her daddy. She became a scapegoat for him as did other children. But I always intervened and came to their defense. I was not perfect but did the best with what I had. Those children grew up to be much better parents then myself and their children are loving, kind and gentle.

Somewhere I managed to break the cycle of verbal abuse by my grandmother and neglect by my mother. My children are a testament to that.

Anyone else out there who can testify to this with their life?



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 10:04 PM
link   

soficrow
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


...you have inherited the gene with the epigenectic expression you will have the tendencies associated with it until it is recognized and dealt with by you


Inheriting a gene and inheriting an epigenetic trait are two very different things. A "genetic" trait involves changes in DNA or genes; epigenetics does NOT involve changes in genes (just gene expression).


In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene activity which are not caused by changes in the DNA sequence. Unlike simple genetics based on changes to the DNA seqeuence (the genotype), the changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have other causes.



Correct, epigenetics involves the expression of genes. I believe I have mentioned that.

I really think you know I understand the difference. No one suggested genetic changes in DNA. Epigenectics does not change dna. I may have not have used to exactely correct words but you should have known what was intended. This is simply picking.

edit to say...I still appreciate your insight. I would probabaly be better said " the gene with it's epigentic expression.
edit on 4-11-2013 by liveandlearn because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 10:15 PM
link   
Very interesting. I would give anything to know about my family history, but I don't have any information and no one to ask.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 10:25 PM
link   
reply to post by calstorm
 


You know your parents names and your grandparents, perhaps further. Do a search for a person who is no longer living or an Ancestry trial for free and see what you can find.

There are also genealogy program you can download for free to get you started.

If you are adopted, you can join ancestry with what you know and for 117 dollars you can have your genome done and others who have had their genome done and are a match will show up.

I did this because my father was adopted. However, the person closest to me showed up with no known common relatives. Unfortunately none could be related to my father. Still waiting for the person to be willing to explore it.



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 10:31 PM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


Erm. No. I am not "picking." I'm appalled by pseudoscientific appropriation of scientific terms. It is absolutely clear that you do not know the difference between genetic and epigenetic. You repeatedly claim throughout your posts that traits are "genetic," saying things like if ...you have inherited the gene with the epigenectic expression you will have the tendencies associated with it. FYI - you inherit proteins that have an epigenetic effect and change gene expression, without changing the genes.

Also - The Abuse Cycle involves learned behavior and habitual patterns. The Abuse Cycle is primarily psychological, NOT genetic or epigenetic. It's true that abuse is stressful and stress has real, physical effects, but the Abuse Cycle's perpetuation has nothing to do with genetics, as you keep insisting incorrectly that it does.

Again, if every psychological deviation and negative psychological trait is defined incorrectly as "genetic," as you have done repeatedly in your posts, it is justification of and argument for the re-instatement of Eugenics Policies.

Eugenics, the social movement claiming to improve the genetic features of human populations through selective breeding and sterilization,[1] based on the idea that it is possible to distinguish between superior and inferior elements of society,[2] played a significant role in the history and culture of the United States prior to its involvement in World War II.[3]

Eugenics was practised in the United States many years before eugenics programs in Nazi Germany[4] and actually, U.S. programs provided much of the inspiration for the latter.[5][6][7] Stefan Kühl has documented the consensus between Nazi race policies and those of eugenicists in other countries, including the United States, and points out that eugenicists understood Nazi policies and measures as the realization of their goals and demands.[5]


I suggest that you educate yourself on epigenetics and genetics - as well as the Ancestry Syndrome described by Ancelin Schützenberger - before trying to appropriate cool scientific terms you do not understand.




EDIT to add - saw your edit. Thanks. I do quite like the idea of the Ancestry Syndrome - and do believe that our will (mood, attitudes) can modify epigenetic influences, even change gene expression - but remain very concerned about where inaccurate, uninformed thinking might take this concept. Also, no, it wouldn't be better if you said " the gene with it's epigentic expression" - genes have genetic expression but epigenetics changes that expression.



edit on 4/11/13 by soficrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2013 @ 11:04 PM
link   

soficrow
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


Erm. No. I am not "picking." I'm appalled by pseudoscientific appropriation of scientific terms. It is absolutely clear that you do not know the difference between genetic and epigenetic. You repeatedly claim throughout your posts that traits are "genetic," saying things like if ...you have inherited the gene with the epigenectic expression you will have the tendencies associated with it. FYI - you inherit proteins that have an epigenetic effect and change gene expression, without changing the genes.

Also - The Abuse Cycle involves learned behavior and habitual patterns. The Abuse Cycle is primarily psychological, NOT genetic or epigenetic. It's true that abuse is stressful and stress has real, physical effects, but the Abuse Cycle's perpetuation has nothing to do with genetics, as you keep insisting incorrectly that it does.

Again, if every psychological deviation and negative psychological trait is defined incorrectly as "genetic," as you have done repeatedly in your posts, it is justification of and argument for the re-instatement of Eugenics Policies.

Eugenics, the social movement claiming to improve the genetic features of human populations through selective breeding and sterilization,[1] based on the idea that it is possible to distinguish between superior and inferior elements of society,[2] played a significant role in the history and culture of the United States prior to its involvement in World War II.[3]

Eugenics was practised in the United States many years before eugenics programs in Nazi Germany[4] and actually, U.S. programs provided much of the inspiration for the latter.[5][6][7] Stefan Kühl has documented the consensus between Nazi race policies and those of eugenicists in other countries, including the United States, and points out that eugenicists understood Nazi policies and measures as the realization of their goals and demands.[5]


I suggest that you educate yourself on epigenetics and genetics - as well as the Ancestry Syndrome described by Ancelin Schützenberger - before trying to appropriate cool scientific terms you do not understand.




EDIT to add - saw your edit. Thanks. I do quite like the idea of the Ancestry Syndrome - and do believe that our will (mood, attitudes) can modify epigenetic influences, even change gene expression - but remain very concerned about where inaccurate, uninformed thinking might take this concept. Also, no, it wouldn't be better if you said " the gene with it's epigentic expression" - genes have genetic expression but epigenetics changes that expression.



edit on 4/11/13 by soficrow because: (no reason given)


I have also mentioned at least twice that i have limited understanding. I do understand we inherit proteins that effect the genetic expression. This was not intended to be a scientific thread. I tried to put things in simple terms. I know np reason why one who has the gene cannot inherit the proteins in the same proportions that also cause the gene expression.

No, I mentioned abuse in that context once. Maybe it was out of place. I can admit that.

Eugenics? I don't even want to know how you came up with that.

People like you are the reason people like myself hesitate to put forth a controversial idea. And you have managed to take it completely off the original intent.

I can only say forgive me for not being as articulate and precise on the subject as yourself.



posted on Nov, 5 2013 @ 05:51 AM
link   

liveandlearn
This is not going in the direction I had hoped probably due to the dialogue on epigenetics.

I am really interested to know if anyone can think back to their family history and see a trait that has continued or been dealt with and changed.

I was brought up in a dysfunctional family via my mother and grandparents. They were not focused on their children and more into self.

When I married, I put my children first. I didn't know my dad and my mom was always remarrying or with some other man. I stayed with this abusive man because I grew up without a father. I decided to stay when I was getting ready to leave and my daughter said she didn't want to leave her daddy. She became a scapegoat for him as did other children. But I always intervened and came to their defense. I was not perfect but did the best with what I had. Those children grew up to be much better parents then myself and their children are loving, kind and gentle.

Somewhere I managed to break the cycle of verbal abuse by my grandmother and neglect by my mother. My children are a testament to that.

Anyone else out there who can testify to this with their life?


you might be interested to look into the theories of Family Constellations. the system was thought of by a German called Hellinger who based his theory of family illness symptoms that can be traced back generations. he claims even if you didn't know your ancestors specific behavior and illnesses they are still passed down the line, acted out not even knowing why one acts or feels in a certain way.


Practitioners claim that present-day problems and difficulties may be influenced by traumas suffered in previous generations of the family, even if those affected now are unaware of the original event in the past. A theoretical foundation for this concept is called The Ancestor Syndrome in psychology,
en.wikipedia.org...


Hellinger's Family Constellations are practiced worldwide now and you will find many sites in English language.

i personally agree with his interesting theory but i have no real understanding whether his methods of healing are effective.



posted on Nov, 5 2013 @ 08:46 AM
link   
reply to post by SovannaMaccha
 


A quick search tells me Hellinger is reviled in Germany, his home country. Hellinger is sympathetic to Hitler, the Nazis and apparently Nazi Eugenics Programs; his "work" is a rationale for a return to Eugenics.


Hellinger's own reactionary ideas have been under severe attack in his native country Germany... German critics point out that Hellinger is not only attempting to set the clock back for decades or even centuries on achievements in contemporary society, but habitually also adopts a most humiliating attitude towards those who come to him for help. Worse still, he displays sympathy and compassion towards dictatorships such as Adolf Hitler's regime and his national-socialist movement.

Nazi eugenics

Nazi eugenics were Nazi Germany's racially based social policies that placed the improvement of the Aryan race or Germanic "Ubermenschen" master race through eugenics at the center of Nazis ideology.[1] Those humans were targeted who were identified as "life unworthy of life" (German: Lebensunwertes Leben), including but not limited to the criminal, degenerate, dissident, feeble-minded, homosexual, idle, insane, and the weak, for elimination from the chain of heredity. More than 400,000 people were sterilized against their will, while 275,000 were killed under Action T4, a "euthanasia" program.[2][3]


In addition,

The Holocaust ...was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout the German Reich and German-occupied territories.[3]

Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[4] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[5] A network of over 40,000 facilities in Germany and German-occupied territory were used to concentrate, hold, and kill Jews and other victims.[6]

Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[7] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, including those of Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[8][9] Recent estimates, based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, indicate some ten to eleven million civilians (mostly Slavs) and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[10][11]



posted on Nov, 5 2013 @ 10:08 AM
link   
reply to post by liveandlearn
 


I tried to put things in simple terms.

Your so-called "simplicity" is blatantly misleading and inexcusably dangerous - nevermind woefully mistaken.


I know np reason why one who has the gene cannot inherit the proteins in the same proportions that also cause the gene expression.

You do not understand the science. Given your limitations you should not attempt to use words or refer to concepts that you do not understand. I will try again:
1. Genes are the "programs" for making proteins - this is what gene expression is at the most basic level; genes do not "inherit" proteins - people inherit genes that make specific proteins.
2. Epigenetic refers to processes that over-ride genes, their genetic programs, and change the product (the protein) without changing the program (the gene or DNA); epigenetic effects are triggered by environmental influences and can be inherited, but are NOT PERMANENT like genetic mutations (DNA).

Your statement above illustrates again that you just don't get it - epigenetics over-rides gene expression, and changes it without changing the DNA or gene aka "genetics." You absolutely cannot ever, ever call epigenetic effects 'genetic' or use the terms as synonyms. "Epigenetic" is NOT "genetic," and epigenetic inheritance is really, really different than genetic inheritance.


Eugenics? I don't even want to know how you came up with that.

Because you are presenting the argument for Eugenics Policies, trolling for a list of potential "defectives" and promoting sites that may be collecting data for future reference in the implementation of Eugenics Policies. If this is all quite accidental and you truly are ignorant, I can help you educate yourself. In any event and given what's on the table, I will continue to argue against pseudo-scientific statements that support Eugenics whatever the professed intent.


People like you are the reason people like myself hesitate to put forth a controversial idea.

I like Schützenberger's hypothesis. What I don't like is the way you are twisting her work to support Eugenics. Roll with it.


And you have managed to take it completely off the original intent.

YOU started this thread with a mini-treatise on epigenetics, and proceeded to mis-use the concept throughout. I'm simply responding to YOUR mis-statements. Of note, Schützenberger did not base her hypothesis on epigenetics, although one of your sources did illustrate his own ignorance of the subject. Welcome to ATS: the home of cooperative critique and analysis.


I can only say forgive me for not being as articulate and precise on the subject as yourself.

I can forgive you, but I will not forgive the cavalier use of precise scientific terminology. Particularly when such use leads uninformed people down dark murky paths to perilous destinations.



.






top topics



 
7
<<   2 >>

log in

join