Understanding Religious Opposition

reply to post by Thought Provoker

Hell is not a "punishment," it's an unfortunate but inevitable consequence.

More like a fictitious fantasy dreamed up by the leaders of the religion to control the population...

Theres nothing inevitable about Hell...

Death is inevitable... Burning for eternity because one doesn't have the same beliefs as another is just nonsense...

Thought Provoker
It is not Christianity that should be questioned, it's man's misguided interpretation of it that should be. Make sense?

Yes, it "makes sense" that you believe that "man" is misguided and needs a "created" external force to guide "him"... there is so much disrespect in that one quoted sentence alone, it makes it hard to converse when everything has a veiled indoctrinated basis (it can almost be interpreted as hostility)... which funnily enough is what you accuse atheists of.

Everything should be questioned.

reply to post by Thought Provoker


I like how you tried to be scientific about something that isn't scientific. Everything you just described is why I oppose it. It doesn't feel beneficial for any of us. In fact, it sound like just the sort of thing a human would invent out of ignorance. Who better to invent a human god than a human? And yes, your god sounds disgustingly human. Disgusting in that it takes our worst inclinations and lauds them as righteous and pious simply because "its the right side" and that makes everything alright. Switching masks redefines everything.

reply to post by Thought Provoker

Thought Provoker
"We, our souls, are effectively marooned here in physical reality, which is a separate reality from "the kingdom of God," as it's called."

You just made apparent another reason why I enter these threads... that quoted opinion is a sad state of affairs for humanity... and millions have been guilted into believing it.

It is a total "the grass is greener" attitude, and it's unhealthy. Our "souls" are exactly where they should be... experiencing the universe.

"... all humans suck."

Here again... it seems that religions lead to an unhealthy sense that there is something wrong with all of us.

I disagree... I think we are all wonderful individuals, each of us part of an intricate tapestry (even someone as perceivably bad as Hitler... how would we know what is "bad" if it never happened?... we as a society have done our best to disavow such outward megalomania ever since... wth varying levels of success... ;-j ... a whole other thread there) unfortunately we live in a a society that punishes honesty.

reply to post by Thought Provoker

Why do you do it?

I have been know to participate in a religious thread or two. My attitude to argument Ad Hominoid is to simply remain calm and assertive. Sticking to the subject is much more valuable than attacking an object. I must admit that I have been knocked off my platform a few times. It happens to the best of us. The main approach I use is called verbal judo. It originates with a book by George Thompson by the same name. The answer to what you are describing is summed up in this sentence.

"Think for the other person in the manner in which they should be thinking for themselves."

Why does this issue appear when truth is present? It goes back to the reason ATS is here. It is a created environment to deny ignorance. What is ignorance? Ignorance is ignoring truth. When truth appears, ignorance resists with all its might. The only platform ignorance has is one that lacks truth. Apart from truth, the only think that is left to use is more ignorance.

Truth is a double edged sword in this case. The one holding the sword cannot wield the sword without cutting himself. This is the problem. We are ALL sinners, so the Christian becomes a hypocrite using the sword of truth. It is not only true for the self-righteous, it is true for everyone.

The foundation for the dispute between the two (unrighteous mind and self-righteous mind) is outlined here: Eyes Wide Open

"False deeds are thus an abomination to the truth, whereas all the ways of truth are for perversity equally a disgrace. Fierce dispute attends every point of decision, for they can never agree. In his mysterious insight and glorious wisdom God has countenanced an era in which perversity triumphs, but at the time appointed for visitation He shall destroy such forever. Then shall truth come forth in victory upon the earth. Sullied by wicked ways while perversity rules, at the time of the appointed judgment truth shall be decreed. By His truth God shall then purify all human deeds, and refine some of humanity so as to extinguish every perverse spirit from the inward parts of the flesh, cleansing from every wicked deed by a holy spirit."

Don't blame God for the destiny as outlined. There is a reason that the self-righteous and the unrighteous must meet on common ground. Truth is made known by ignoring it first. Like verbal judo, we must all learn to find the mean.

Doctrine of the Mean

Aristotle Golden Mean

How long have we ignored truth? A long time. How long have men been in fierce dispute over simple truths? Since the time we rejected truth.

Why are we here on Earth? The same as ATS. It is a created environment to deny ignorance.

POE

P. But to what good end is pain thus rendered possible?


V. All things are either good or bad by comparison. A sufficient analysis will show that pleasure in all cases, is but the contrast of pain. Positive pleasure is a mere idea. To be happy at any one point we must have suffered at the same. Never to suffer would have been never to have been blessed. But it has been shown that, in the inorganic life, pain cannot be; thus the necessity for the organic. The pain of the primitive life of Earth, is the sole basis of the bliss of the ultimate life in Heaven.

All the cuts on my hands allow me to see the truth. All the wounds from truth allow the wicked to see the same truth. At the end of the day, grace and mercy are offered to us from God.

He is the only one that can handle the sword properly.

"The importance of the golden mean is that it re-affirms the balance needed in life. It remains puzzling how this ancient wisdom, known before Aristotle re-introduced it, (it is present in the myth of Icarus, in a Doryc saying carved in the front of the temple at Delphi: "Nothing in Excess," in the teachings of Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato) can be so forgotten and neglected in the modern society. Today's modern man usually succumbs in the extreme of excess, which can be seen in the uncontrollable accumulation of material wealth, food, alcohol, drugs, but he can descend into deficiency as well, like inadequate attention to education, healthy sport activities, intellectual pursuits, etc. Since Aristotle was interested in the studying of nature, he, like any great person, quickly realized the importance of balance in nature and the tremendous effect it has on keeping up so many forms of life in nature going. "

reply to post by Thought Provoker



Okay. I was going to wait until I'd read through all the pages and responses/counter-responses, but it's time for me to speak up.

You have adequately pointed out that MOST Christians "are not really Christians" - THOSE are the people that we non-CHRISTIANS (whether believers in God or atheists or agnostics) OPPOSE.

Insofar as you have done that, you have answered your own question. MOST people "preaching" on ATS are not like what you self-style yourself as being. Those of us intelligent enough to use these fora as a kind of philosophical look at the human condition (as Mister-Bit so well expressed), an inquiry into humanity itself, are not "preaching".

We are OPPOSED to "preaching" because it is unnecessary, and indeed can be exquisitely COUNTERPRODUCTIVE in becoming "free" and healthy.

You want to come on here and stand-by, PRN, to "help" those seeking to find Jesus? Fine. They'll ASK YOU for that help - it needn't be paraded around arrogantly, as you have already mentioned. Nearly every person on God's Green Earth already KNOWS Jesus is out there - at least in the West.

Which brings me to my point. You said,

Every Christian is a Christian because at some point we discovered within us a desire to stop being "just normal humans." It is not a choice, nor is it because we got preached at. We just realize one day that human nature sucks and we don't want it anymore, the greed and egoism and apathy.

AND THAT IS A LIE. MANY 'Christians' are indoctrinated from early childhood, and terrified into believing. And they are numerous on here, annoying, preachy, superior, and as others have said, ILLOGICAL.

You did not make it to late adolescence never having been introduced to the notion of "Jesus Savior" already. It isn't as though it was an elective at graduate level and you took it to satisfy a requisite toward your degree.

"Just normal humans"?? I can scarcely believe you allowed yourself to type that and then let it stand.
Read your statement to yourself again...
"We just realized one day that human nature sucks and we don't want it anymore." TELL THAT TO THE KIDS TRAUMATIZED AT JESUS CAMP. Tell it to the rabid fundies who had the crap beat out of them as kids, and were told they were worthless, and who are now TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN the same thing. And for that matter - YOU were the one that brought up Christianity.

MANY of us on here are opposed to ALL "organized religions." Your thread title was intriguing - and was composed to incite interest in the subject; yet all you have done, so far, is say "Well, they're not REAL Christians." Yawn. If that's the case, YOU SHOULD BE ON HERE OPPOSING them, rather than leaving it to us heathen "just normal humans." "It's not a choice" is right, for far too many individuals; it was browbeaten into them using shame, inadequacy, threats, and fear.

It's sickening.

THIS. ^^ IS. CHILD ABUSE.

reply to post by wildtimes


Check your messages.

Religion and science are two different masks, so take your pick..or you/me can choose to meet in the middle and see each other for who we really are.

You are not a bag of chemicals or a spontaneously created being. I am what I am.

AceInPlace
You are not a bag of chemicals

What am I composed of, then? Isn't the material world, which includes our own bodies, demonstrably made up of chemicals? That doesn't make it any less amazing...

Thought Provoker
I'd like all non-believers who regularly engage in this activity to perform an honest self-evaluation to find the cause of your need to convince believers to not believe.

That sentence should be addressed to EVERYONE ... not just non-believers.
I"ve seen snotty behavior from 'nonbelievers' and snotty behavior from 'believers' both.

reply to post by wildtimes


Wildtimes

You know me and I bet you could tell there was some eyebrow raising in the quotes you replied to, not your replies to them.

Did this person just say they "discovered' Christianity like "discovering you have three kidneys"?

For those who don't know about ALL Christians, you have met a broad-range of Christians, those of us who have been Christians for a while know why we are Christians. I didn't get it through indoctrination. But that is exactly how many do call themselves Christian.

I was thinking last night, how did the term Christian go from "Christ follower" to "Christ-like"? God forbid that I should ever think I am Christ-like, that's just too much spiritual mindedness without doing any good here on earth, and no one can ever by Christ-like.

I am a Christ follower because I met Jesus in a very real and personal way, I accepted Him at His word, because His word is real. I didn't just go to church to learn about Jesus, I didn't just think this was a cool thing to self-identify. I am a Christian because I am a Christ follower. I didn't suddenly discover it one day, He found me.

Is this a new Christianity the OP is following? I don't get this new Christianity, it's too fluffy. There is no substance to it when you don't even know why you are a Christian.

OP, if you are a Christian, then you are going to have to believe Jesus when He said "Don't worry if they hate you, they hated me first". Why then are we flipping out if someone says "No, I don't like your way". Well, they are exactly like the Bible said they would be.

But we can't craft something more appealing, then it's our own religion and nothing more than that.

Wildtimes expressed why she does not like Christianity, and I suspect it is because of her own inward dialogue and her own reasons. Maybe Wildtimes would feel more comfortable if Christianity was not presented as "Do or die, my way or the highway" philosophy?

Wildtimes, no Christian is the judge of your heart or your eternity. For Christians to believe they are, then they are taking on the role that is not theirs to do. Our job is to live it the best way we can.

Here is one from Micah 4

Micah 4:1-7 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, And no one shall make them afraid; For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. For all people walk each in the name of his god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God Forever and ever. “In that day,” says the LORD , “I will assemble the lame, I will gather the outcast And those whom I have afflicted; I will make the lame a remnant, And the outcast a strong nation; So the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on, even forever.

Christians walk in the name of Jesus, but the Bible says ALL men walk in the name of their god. And here is why it is a choice and not a force to be acted upon people.

If they want to sit under their vine and fig tree with their god, then I can't stop them. I can only live by the agreement that I have made.

Wildtimes, the next time a Christian tells you that you must be a Christian or else, remind them of Micah 4. It's a choice to be a Christian.

BTW, I have to ask. Christians, why aren't you in church this morning? I know why I am not, because I am not able to, but why aren't you guys there?

What Christians fail to understand is this. Christianity is a covenant relationship, you agree to follow it and this is what you will be rewarded with, but it's an agreement, you chose, therefore you agree to it. If someone else doesn't choose it, then let them be rewarded by their god.

Thought Provoker said:

I'd like all non-believers who regularly engage in this activity to perform an honest self-evaluation to find the cause of your need to convince believers to not believe."

FF said:

That sentence should be addressed to EVERYONE ... not just non-believers.
I"ve seen snotty behavior from 'nonbelievers' and snotty behavior from 'believers' both.

And FF is right.


So, OP - I don't believe I saw you in the recent thread entitled "What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?"

I could easily have phrased it like your question but the flip side of it:

I'd like all believers who regularly engage in this activity to perform an honest self-evaluation to find the cause for your need to convince non-believers of YOUR faith to believe in YOUR FAITH. What are you afraid of?

You say that you follow Jesus's teachings -- and that's fine. So do I, as far as it's concerned with how to treat others. But I do NOT and have NEVER, EVER believed that we are all unworthy sinners who deserve to be thrown in hell.

So, yes. You are right about the mess that "men have made of it." WarminIndy pointed this out as well.

You get RID of all that hell-fire, brimstone, shame, fear, exclusionary damnation/exclusive salvation, and self-loathing, and your "religion", "Christianity" - thusly restored, would find a much more amenable audience.

I think your OP was disingenous to the max. You know EXACTLY why there is opposition to religion. You described it yourself.

So -- what are you going to do about it? I'm all ears.

reply to post by Thought Provoker


Religion is a fact of human existence, and to oppose religion is to oppose human history.

It is apparent that everyone is religious when it comes to their own cultures and customs. What they name their cultures—for instance Atheism or Christianity or Buddhism—makes really no large difference in action or conduct, only in dress, what they focus their thoughts on, and choice of words.

Doing away with religion is an ideal I personally would not like to see fulfilled, as it is a terrible act of genocide—the wiping away of culture so that it may be forgotten.

reply to post by opopanax


What is a chemical? It's a word to describe something we see. The thing being seen is not actually a "chemical", that would be an abstract concept.

I could easily call them planets...planets inside of our bodies constantly moving, then I can attach another abstract concept such as The Kingdom of God and say we have civilizations living inside of us.

You're right that it wouldn't be any less amazing, but chemicals often get mistaken for things which are immaterial such as emotions.

I live with someone who's behaviour (attitudes, intentions, emotions) are reduced to chemical imbalances. I believe explanations like that are a grand mistake.

We are composed of material and immaterial properties, bag of chemicals to explain the immaterial is hilariously mindnumbing.

Just my opinion, I'm an idiot in comparison to many LOL!

reply to post by xDeadcowx

AbleEndangered
reply to post by winofiend

 

winofiend
Well, there is this thing on ATS that lists all the NEW topics, and recent posts in threads, in one big lump. I use that quite a lot. And often there are a few religious threads, this one included, that list in them.

So if it's entitled "I love god. thanks" I usually ignore it. But if it's "I I love god and you should too, or you're a sinner!" then I come in and have a gander. And often what I see irks me to the back teeth.

And then there are the sort of folk who waltz into unrelated threads with such enticing quips as "Read the bible." as the sole answer to someones dilemma. Yesiree, I do tend to consider that an opportunity to engage the religious folk in some haughty banter.

Otherwise, I tend to mind my own bees wax when it comes to someones personal religious choices.

It's quite striking, how often they get uppity and point fingers at all and sundry who have had a gut full of their superiority and moral snobbery, and question Why oh Why do we go into their sacred dens to pontificate in the negative.

Yet more often than not, they are blind to the fact that they themselves are out and about espousing their religious intolerance in all things non-religious. Striking indeed how it only goes one way.

About to become homeless? Read the bible.
Got cancer? Pray to god.
Want to find spirituality? Get on your knees or you're a sucker.
Like a beer or two? Drugs are for mugs man... jesus is the only way.
Having a spot of bother with the missus? Religion will fix you!! Have a psalm.
Sick of religion? Why are you coming into our religion based forums and having a go, you stupids!!!

I have nothing against people who believe in fantasy. I don't go about hassling people who dress up as elves and goblins or furry little animals. I don't harangue people who dress up as knights and fair maidens and battle with rubber swords for the honor of the kingdom... Because they don't go around walking up to strangers and saying "Hey has anyone ever told you about king arthur? Let me tell yo a story..."

I'd take his sword and plunge it where not even merlin could find it.

Basically, the bottom line is this. Religious folk are bloody annoying. Hopefully if I am as equally annoying, they'll get the point. If not, well I have a giggle, they learn patience, and it's all a learning experience...

edit on 3-11-2013 by winofiend because: (no reason given)

Seems like you are looking for something...

What age did you stop believing in God??

Do you remember?

xDeadcowx
reply to post by AbleEndangered

 

Seems like you are looking for something...

What age did you stop believing in God??

Do you remember?

This kind of stuff is why i post.

When i do post in religious threads its because of one of two reasons. Either the thread is desperately trying to twist and distort scientific knowledge to justify religious belief, or its a thread/post like this reply.

Accusing, implying or hinting that a non-believer doesnt believe due to something missing, or something wrong irks me like nothing else. When someone says something like this i take it as them saying they are broken for not believing in a certain flavor of religion. If i was to run around accusing people of being broken because they didnt believe Thor is real, they would have me put in a loony bin even though monotheists do it all the time. Not only is it socially unacceptable, but its incredibly offensive.

I stay away from most religious threads that are just people of a certain religion discussing their religion out of respect except for instances where accusations are made toward atheists, or outright falsehoods are presented as fact. Deny ignorance and all that jazz.

DC

What I said was based on fact...

READ:

University of Oxford Study:

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife

www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2011/110513.html
www.ox.ac.uk...

Studies by Emily Reed Burdett and Justin Barrett, from the University of Oxford, suggest that children below the age of five find it easier to believe in some superhuman properties than to understand similar human limitations. Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing. However, children may continue to believe in all-seeing, all-knowing supernatural agents, such as a god or gods.

Experiments involving adults, conducted by Jing Zhu from Tsinghua University (China), and Natalie Emmons and Jesse Bering from The Queen’s University, Belfast, suggest that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.

You think your an Atheist...

Deny Ignorance!!

reply to post by AbleEndangered


Just because humans are predisposed doesn't mean they are right. Humans would be predisposed to believe the sun revolves around the Earth. Thankfully, we have intelligent people to educate them in the matter.

interesting thread...

what i don't like is the sarcasm of an atheist and the sanctimony/hypocrisy of a believer...
both are the same idiots who think they know better than the rest.

tomoe723
interesting thread...

what i don't like is the sarcasm of an atheist and the sanctimony/hypocrisy of a believer...
both are the same idiots who think they know better than the rest.

Yes good thread.
But knowing the Truth and telling people about it,
is not hypocrisy.
BTW do you not Believe in Jesus?
For Jesus Said : Even those that will come to Believe on Me,
Shall be Saved

Angelic Resurrection

tomoe723
interesting thread...

what i don't like is the sarcasm of an atheist and the sanctimony/hypocrisy of a believer...
both are the same idiots who think they know better than the rest.

Yes good thread.
But knowing the Truth and telling people about it,
is not hypocrisy.
BTW do you not Believe in Jesus?
For Jesus Said : Even those that will come to Believe on Me,
Shall be Saved

What makes you think that you have the truth?

Angelic Resurrection

tomoe723
interesting thread...

what i don't like is the sarcasm of an atheist and the sanctimony/hypocrisy of a believer...
both are the same idiots who think they know better than the rest.

Yes good thread.
But knowing the Truth and telling people about it,
is not hypocrisy.
BTW do you not Believe in Jesus?
For Jesus Said : Even those that will come to Believe on Me,
Shall be Saved

it is hypocrisy, just like how the pharisees and sadducees "knew the Truth" and told the people about it but in the background kept torturing people... did Jesus ever condemn a non-believer? in fact, he was kind to both sinners and tax collectors alike. he was compassionate to the outcasts of society.