Understanding Religious Opposition

reply to post by AbleEndangered

Seems like you are looking for something...

What age did you stop believing in God??

Do you remember?

This kind of stuff is why i post.

When i do post in religious threads its because of one of two reasons. Either the thread is desperately trying to twist and distort scientific knowledge to justify religious belief, or its a thread/post like this reply.

Accusing, implying or hinting that a non-believer doesnt believe due to something missing, or something wrong irks me like nothing else. When someone says something like this i take it as them saying they are broken for not believing in a certain flavor of religion. If i was to run around accusing people of being broken because they didnt believe Thor is real, they would have me put in a loony bin even though monotheists do it all the time. Not only is it socially unacceptable, but its incredibly offensive.

I stay away from most religious threads that are just people of a certain religion discussing their religion out of respect except for instances where accusations are made toward atheists, or outright falsehoods are presented as fact. Deny ignorance and all that jazz.

DC

I will give you my honest answer as a non-believer why I feel 'compelled' to respond to religious threads.

Firstly, I am fascinated by the human mind and the way it works. So the subject of religion interests me on that basic level to start with.

With that in mind it gives me these questions to ponder on...

"What makes the human mind believe these religious stories?"
"What is the 'need' that the person feels they have to feed by believeing?"
"Is faith and religion a fundamental human thought process?"
"Is the idea of 'god' an almost animalistic human trait that they aspire to?"

But I suppose the biggest question for me is..

"In this day and age, what makes a so called intelligent adult believe such rediculous stories with no basis in reality EVER presented, is it somekind of mental deficiency.?"

Religious people always say "we're here to save you from an eternal life in hell" so I guess you could say I feel that I am here to "save you from a lifetime of lunacy"

Do I feel superior to believers? Honest answer... yes, because I question everything before I believe what I am told. Same way that religious people feel superior and smug because they feel the baby jeebus loves them.

Secondly, religious people find a way of getting everywhere...

No matter what the forum, be it conspriracy, sports, history, music... REALLY? Cut it out... so you believe? Good for you, have a lollipop, do you really have to come on to some totally unrelated site and spout your beliefs?

Seriously, I have no problem if that is what you choose to believe BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!!

Bottom line, if you're going to come on to sites annoying non-believers then I guess non-believers by right should be allowed to annoy you.

Thought Provoker
reply to post by akushla99

 

Preaching? Did I do that? I wasn't intending to. I just wanted to know why non-religious people get so concerned about religious matters that they spend time fighting about it in places where it can't possibly make a difference. I understand the phenomenon a little better already, in fact. The question wasn't fake or disingenuous; I would've still wondered about it even if I was a non-religious person. I still wonder about the attitudes, though, the vehemence, the meanness, the outright hostility. Why is that always a part of some people's debate style? Simple immaturity, or something deeper?

It's nothing deep...if you're asking 'why do people who are not Christian get so concerned about Christian matters'...that question has been answered by several posters, including myself...if this is an invisible ball under 3 cups, I'm not playing that game of deception with you - neither have any other respondents...your query was replied to quite clearly (even under the auspice of it being a clear 'nuther pulpit thread)...but, that's not what you asked...

Å99

akushla99

 

I still wonder whether the immaturity of averred christians is even recognised as the passive-agressive psych game that it is, and if they believe they really are jiggling anyones marbles...

I don't know, you tell me...

I'm... not exactly sure what marble-jiggling might be, I suffer from an American education (and insomnia), but remember extrinsic versus intrinsic. Extrinsic Christians might be self-avowed Christians, but they don't act remotely Christ-like and thus they don't know him, nor he them. Intrinsic Christians don't play mind games with people. We believe in, pursue, and (try to) speak only the truth. Kinda like more-emotional Vulcans. We care about others; they care about themselves. They always want to look right about everything. They'll fake any belief to be accepted by their peers. It's all about them. (If you were Christian, you'd believe that Satan causes that.)

But that same dichotomy also exists among the non-religious. I've known kind atheists and mean ones, just like intrinsic and extrinsic Christians. It's a base, core element of every human's inner nature; you're one way or the other, whether religious or not. People who are mean by nature have one of two things happen when they get religion: it either changes them and removes that mean spirit (if the conversion was real), or they don't change at all because there was no actual conversion (no repentance for being such a meanie or desire to stop being one). That is the causal mechanism behind the intrinsic and extrinsic duality... and the extrinsics outnumber us by at least hundreds to one. Their disdain and intolerance and hate and divisiveness are thus what non-believers end up associating with Christianity. We are not all like that, and neither is God or Christ. Don't let what the extrinsics do turn your heart against God. Sometimes I think that's what they actually want. The more of you who are lost, the happier Satan is. And yes, I know you won't believe that, but que sera, sera. One can only follow one's destiny.

I've had a little think and came up with this analogy..

If you had a child that you needed a babysitter for (for whatever reason) would you hand that child over to someone you have never met, never heard of, had no certificates of childcare etc, had no passports or documents but came over to you and said "hey, trust me with your kid will you"

Would you hand over your child without questioning?

If you wouldn't, then why would you be prepared to hand over your "eternal soul" forever to someone for the same reasons?

It just doesn't seem rational to me not to question, and if you do question then to accept without proof... yeah yeah, I know... faith.

Thought Provoker

akushla99

 

I still wonder whether the immaturity of averred christians is even recognised as the passive-agressive psych game that it is, and if they believe they really are jiggling anyones marbles...

I don't know, you tell me...

I'm... not exactly sure what marble-jiggling might be, I suffer from an American education (and insomnia), but remember extrinsic versus intrinsic. Extrinsic Christians might be self-avowed Christians, but they don't act remotely Christ-like and thus they don't know him, nor he them. Intrinsic Christians don't play mind games with people. We believe in, pursue, and (try to) speak only the truth. Kinda like more-emotional Vulcans. We care about others; they care about themselves. They always want to look right about everything. They'll fake any belief to be accepted by their peers. It's all about them. (If you were Christian, you'd believe that Satan causes that.)

But that same dichotomy also exists among the non-religious. I've known kind atheists and mean ones, just like intrinsic and extrinsic Christians. It's a base, core element of every human's inner nature; you're one way or the other, whether religious or not. People who are mean by nature have one of two things happen when they get religion: it either changes them and removes that mean spirit (if the conversion was real), or they don't change at all because there was no actual conversion (no repentance for being such a meanie or desire to stop being one). That is the causal mechanism behind the intrinsic and extrinsic duality... and the extrinsics outnumber us by at least hundreds to one. Their disdain and intolerance and hate and divisiveness are thus what non-believers end up associating with Christianity. We are not all like that, and neither is God or Christ. Don't let what the extrinsics do turn your heart against God. Sometimes I think that's what they actually want. The more of you who are lost, the happier Satan is. And yes, I know you won't believe that, but que sera, sera. One can only follow one's destiny.

I just demonstrated that you were playing a mind game despite you long-windedly trying to describe to me the difference between an intrinsic and an extrinsic christian...goople passive-agressive...and in future it might make your quest more palatable - and don't ever tell anyone you know what they'll believe...

Direct question...Is this thread about understanding religious Opposition?...or is it about who you think is damned or not?

Å99

Thought Provoker

akushla99

 

I still wonder whether the immaturity of averred christians is even recognised as the passive-agressive psych game that it is, and if they believe they really are jiggling anyones marbles...

I don't know, you tell me...

But that same dichotomy also exists among the non-religious. I've known kind atheists and mean ones, just like intrinsic and extrinsic Christians. It's a base, core element of every human's inner nature; you're one way or the other, whether religious or not. People who are mean by nature have one of two things happen when they get religion: it either changes them and removes that mean spirit (if the conversion was real), or they don't change at all because there was no actual conversion (no repentance for being such a meanie or desire to stop being one). That is the causal mechanism behind the intrinsic and extrinsic duality... and the extrinsics outnumber us by at least hundreds to one. Their disdain and intolerance and hate and divisiveness are thus what non-believers end up associating with Christianity. We are not all like that, and neither is God or Christ. Don't let what the extrinsics do turn your heart against God. Sometimes I think that's what they actually want. The more of you who are lost, the happier Satan is. And yes, I know you won't believe that, but que sera, sera. One can only follow one's destiny.

Well now you see, or you don't see.. but I certainly do... By that answer you reveal your true motives.

You are right and good, we are evil and doomed...

"This is the truth because our made-up god says it is the truth" Can you really, honestly not see what you are saying?

This is a preaching thread, I was hoping to engage in conversation.

reply to post by Thought Provoker


...and here's a serious question...Did I predict this, or, was I correct in my assessment?

"...because the forum topic is Religion, Faith and Theology...discuss...
But that's not what happens...somehow, the topic becomes Christianity, Christianity and Christianity...and more often than not, they are not discussions, but proxy sermons with the back-slapping and high fives...no discussion...those that do treat the topic section as the heading suggests (christian or not - because it is an open forum within T&C) get accused of christian bashing, when initially they are not...they simply had no idea the forum had been magically changed...but were discussing to only be met by 'well, if you don't repent, you're going to hell'...that's not discussion..."

It's one or the other...or may be both ...I'm either a psychic, or smart enough (like others) to see through it...

Å99

reply to post by Thought Provoker


They do it because of how God made us. Our minds follow the same pattern as the Trinity. Awareness + will + body.

When you become aware of something, you will a concept/image for it. If the concept of it is [good], or right, you will try to reproduce it. In order to reproduce it, you will either hide from [bad] concepts that dispute your [good], or you will attack the [bad] concept, in hopes of reproducing your [good] concept where the [bad] concept exists.

I'm calling the act: [good] concept reproduction because its purpose is to produce [good]....it is the will of all. Even [bad] people are doing their version of [good]. No one can escape it.

Become aware > will [good] concept > reproduce [good] concept.

They see a concept is [bad] so, like everyone else, they will either disregard it in order to protect their own version of [good] or they will try to correct it with their version of [good].

They're trying to reproduce their version of good - same as Christians. Only the version of what is [good] differs.

It is the reason you get out of bed in the morning - it is the reason we all replied, it is the reason for all... see Genesis - God saw it was good, each time he created.

reply to post by Thought Provoker


Read very carefully what I wrote, and then try and tell me it didn't happen...(bonus easter eggs in there too!)

"...because the forum topic is Religion, Faith and Theology...discuss...
But that's not what happens...somehow, the topic becomes Christianity, Christianity and Christianity...and more often than not, they are not discussions, but proxy sermons with the back-slapping and high fives...no discussion...those that do treat the topic section as the heading suggests (christian or not - because it is an open forum within T&C) get accused of christian bashing, when initially they are not...they simply had no idea the forum had been magically changed...but were discussing to only be met by 'well, if you don't repent, you're going to hell'..." quote akushla99

That was my first answer and my last here...

Å99

Mister_Bit
"What makes the human mind believe these religious stories?"

For me, at least, the stories didn't do it. I'm not even sure I believe some of them; too many men have had their hands in it. Nor do I believe because someone told me to. I believe because it feels right to me, I sense truth in it on some subconscious level. Call it a hunch that I trust.

"What is the 'need' that the person feels they have to feed by believeing?"

None. It's an acceptance of something that we believe is true, we aren't filling a need. I don't believe because I want eternal life, or because I'm afraid of being punished for not believing, or because I wanted to placate my parents; I believe because I absolutely adore Truth, I want nothing to do with any deceptions or misinformation, and true Christianity (as opposed to what man turned it into) feels true to me.

"Is faith and religion a fundamental human thought process?"

No. It becomes your foundation once you find religion; all thoughts and actions spring from it. If you never do find religion, then it won't be in your foundation. That's my guess, at least.

"Is the idea of 'god' an almost animalistic human trait that they aspire to?"

A primal instinct to become God? The desire for more power with which to satisfy one's hierarchy of needs? Not for me. I don't aspire to become God any more than a husband aspires to become his own wife. I just want to be his friend, because I'm drawn to goodness and love and wisdom and justice. The alternative to God repels me towards God.

"In this day and age, what makes a so called intelligent adult believe such rediculous stories with no basis in reality EVER presented, is it somekind of mental deficiency.?"

Yes, an excellent question. There is no logical, scientific reason for me to believe what I believe, and yet I do, despite being a logical, scientifically-minded person. I did not choose to believe in God any more than I chose to be good at math. They both just sort of happened; they serve as their own basis in reality. But I am certain it's not a mental deficiency, so you can safely cross that off the list.

I question everything before I believe what I am told. Same way that religious people feel superior and smug because they feel the baby jeebus loves them.

I wasn't told to believe. And Jeebus loves every human being; it's just that his followers are the only ones who believe it, and thus the only ones who return it.

do you really have to come on to some totally unrelated site and spout your beliefs?

Yes, that wholesale shotgun-like preaching does turn nearly everyone off. It's why I'd never do it, it's self-defeating. Christians don't need to go around trying to convert everyone; we just need to be here to help those who feel strangely drawn to Christ find him. Every Christian is a Christian because at some point we discovered within us a desire to stop being "just normal humans." It is not a choice, nor is it because we got preached at. We just realize one day that human nature sucks and we don't want it anymore, the greed and egoism and apathy. That's the change we were looking for, and we believe Christ effects that change. Hell, I don't even feel human anymore, I'm nothing like a typical one, and I'm grateful for that. Sorry, getting long-winded again. It's just such a complex issue; small paragraphs can't do it justice.

It is not my intention to annoy. Apologies if I have. I just wanted to answer your questions; they seemed quite reasonable things to ask.

akushla99
Direct question...Is this thread about understanding religious Opposition?...or is it about who you think is damned or not?

It certainly started out as the former. I just wanted to understand the motivations, the reason so much bitterness from so many people floods so many threads. I'd never presume to be capable of determining who's damned or not; my opinion on that wouldn't matter anyway. I'm just here for academic purposes.

reply to post by Thought Provoker
Hey that's great!!

Thanks for the replies and responding to some of my questions, it really does help me to understand as I hope my answers helped answer some of your questions.

I try to be true to my beliefs in my answers and perhaps that's the point of the whole religious debate.. being true to yourself, being honest to yourself.

Your answer basically boils down to "I don't know why I believe but I just do" correct?

I think that is one of the best answers I've seen in a LOT of debates, it honest, simple and truthful.

I think it is one of the hardest things to do, that is to express a belief in simple words.

Now, I have said before that I consider myself to be "christian" in that I believe in the words "attributed" to Jesus. I am not saying I believe in god, a god or jesus as a saviour but I do believe in the words.

"Love one another" "be good to one another" "treat others as you would be treated" etc etc

So I consider myself to be a good person, not only by my beliefs but by my actions... I help people without the need for reward, I sacrifice my time to do things for other people even if it upsets me personally. I'm not driven by material gain or money, nor self-esteem and grandeur.

I look after my fellow humans beings with respect and hope that by doing so, when or if the time comes they will reach out to me when I need it.

So, all that said... can you please answer me this?

Why am I condemned to an eternity of suffering in your religion because I simply don't believe?

Thought Provoker

akushla99
Direct question...Is this thread about understanding religious Opposition?...or is it about who you think is damned or not?

It certainly started out as the former. I just wanted to understand the motivations, the reason so much bitterness from so many people floods so many threads. I'd never presume to be capable of determining who's damned or not; my opinion on that wouldn't matter anyway. I'm just here for academic purposes.

Then your motivation and focus would need to be on concentrating on the 'actual' question you 'seriously' posed...and not taking it 'off topic'...in the end, it's your thread...you're directing it...but 'academically' speaking, you would be appearing to be doing what it is you accused...mmm...unbelievers of doing in your original post...only, you're doing it?!
...and I'll guarantee you, if you persist in being 'unfocused'...you will get 'drive-by' unbelievers...and this will only confirm what you think you already know...because you just created the circumstances for it to occur...and lo and behold, it did...surprise, surprise...

I'm outta here
Blessings

Å99

Thought Provoker
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I believed that 12/21/2012 might get fulfilled by people, as in, TPTB would use it as an excuse for some Evil Act they had planned. And who knows; maybe they did start something on that day that will eventually lead to humanity's downfall. I never saw it as having a religious component, though. The Mayans didn't prophesy doom and destruction; they just made a really long calendar, and that's the date it happened to cycle. The doom prophecies were all our doing (mostly New Agers, Terrance McKenna's "Timewave" followers, and the media, both mainstream and not). The non-religious fear the future. The rest of us await it eagerly.

However it was interpreted doesn't matter in the fact that it was developed in the first place within the Mayan religion.

I think it really strange that people think religion began with Christianity. They can't see past that into a world of history of religiosity. But maybe Christianity is recent history in the long span of time?

reply to post by Thought Provoker


I do it to keep the field level.

reply to post by akushla99


And I have seen more Bible postings from agnostics and atheists...lol.

Whether one wants to disprove a Christian doctrine or support it, the point is the Bible is the most widely disputed book on the planet. The Bible is also the most misinterpreted, reinterpreted, reinforced, controversial book ever written.

I really can't blame people for being agnostic and atheist when they see that Christians themselves don't even know what the Bible says. And who can blame them?

As a Christian, I do see the failures of some Christian churches who don't maintain the truths of the Bible, and instead try to insert doctrines upon doctrines upon doctrines to people who don't understand the fundamentals. And they have a right to question us about it.

When Christians say the verse "give a quick answer for the hope that lies within you", it means somebody is asking so be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within you, not them. They don't have the same hope within them as you do. But the Bible also says "work out your own soul salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord". Really all we are required to do is just give an answer to a question. After you have given the answer, let them work out their soul salvation.

For the Christians out there reading this...we aren't supposed to be putting burdens on people, and that's what many doctrines do. And as a Christian, I don't blame people for rejecting the Gospel when it has been presented with so many catches and traps that other Christians place on it. What made a Christian believe in the first place?

And the other thing I have seen is this, Christianity isn't Christian so much any more, it's the same as agnosticism with the Christian wrapping paper. No wonder people are confused. And then Christians find themselves caught in trying to explain something they don't understand themselves.

The only request that I have is for people to not misrepresent what the Bible does not say. They try to disprove the Bible based on someone's misrepresentation. But this is a forum where people can talk and share ideas. If a Christian can't handle it, maybe they need to go elsewhere?

Sure, we all get passionate sometimes and then say things we wish we hadn't, but everyone does that. And too often someone will not be clear about what they mean and it leads to misunderstandings, but then there are some who do say what they mean and then get upset when they are challenged on it. But expect that when posting on forums, any forum anywhere. What you say will invariably be disagreed with.

But it is also hypocritical and wrong to pounce on one religious system because you don't like it, at the same time vaunting a particular worldview, demanding tolerance for one and denying tolerance for another. If you want tolerance, show tolerance, and that's for everyone. But don't show intolerance and then expect tolerance shown back, the world doesn't work that way.

The OP might be saying "show more tolerance to Christianity" but then the others are saying "show more tolerance from the Christians". Why are Christians expected to be more tolerant while we are told our faith system is being destroyed gleefully by those who don't desire it?

But it all goes back to human nature, people are going to be people and do what people do. Christians, just simply give an answer for the hope that lies within you without having to resort to endless preaching. That's what they are asking of us. Yes, we know and we get it that you don't like our religion, but some Christians don't like to be punching bags either.

The problem is on both sides and we will never COEXIST, it's just that simple. But the punching is on both sides. So if you want us to COEXIST with you, maybe you can try to COEXIST with us?

Thought Provoker
So again, seriously and honestly: Why do you bother? What can you possibly gain from it? Why not spend that time writing posts about things you like instead, things that matter to you? Is it an admission that religion does matter to you? Why waste your time on it if not?

Why do anything?

And that applies to everyone, including Christians. If everyone has this big after life to go to, why worry? If we don't, why worry? What do anything?

I like to learn, I like the truth, I like other people to share what they know with me. I don't believe humans will get anywhere long term leaving such topics and thoughts alone just to make nice with people.

Edit: With that attitude, we would still be burning people as witches?

reply to post by Thought Provoker


I rarely post in this forum for precisely the reasons you state. But while I don't subscribe to any particular religion, I do believe.

It's the atheists that annoy me with their constant bashing. They're like those people who unexpectedly show up on your doorstep handing out "The Watchtower".

Then again, I'm not to fond of those who thump their "Holy Text" either.

I have a friend who is a deacon and often we have our discussions and they can be enlightening and humorous as well. It's nothing personal.

Mister_Bit

 

Your answer basically boils down to "I don't know why I believe but I just do" correct?

In a nutshell. It defies explanation, like suddenly discovering you have three kidneys.

I look after my fellow humans beings with respect and hope that by doing so, when or if the time comes they will reach out to me when I need it.

Surely that isn't your sole motivation for being helpful?

Why am I condemned to an eternity of suffering in your religion because I simply don't believe?

Ah, that. Nearly everyone asks that. Well, there's no easy quick answer, but I'll try to Reader's Digest it. I might even be wrong about it, but this is what makes the most sense to me:

Hell is not a "punishment," it's an unfortunate but inevitable consequence. If you fall off a cliff and die, your death was not you being punished for falling. You'll die because of natural physical laws; gravity, momentum, the tensile strength of various body parts, etcetera. We, our souls, are effectively marooned here in physical reality, which is a separate reality from "the kingdom of God," as it's called. A spiritual dimension that this one sort of mirrors. After the Adam and Eve incident, during which they had to leave that reality and enter this one, there was no way for us to get back, so God incarnated Jesus here to be our bridge back home... but you have to know a bridge exists to be able to cross it. You have to accept it, trust it, have a map to it. If you don't, you'll remain stuck here, and won't get to be part of eternal life, not because you're being punished, but because you never took that way out.

Christians are always talking about being "saved by the blood of Christ." That's part of it, but in an obscure way. To become able to be that bridge for anyone but himself, Jesus had to lead a sinless life and then become evil's victim. What he gave up ("the ghost") gave him the right to let others cross him into Heaven. If he knows you, he'll let you through and erase your sin history so you can enter Heaven. If not, he won't. It's not about who's the better person; all humans suck. It's about believing that this world is a trap, but there's a way out, and you're then able to take that offramp when it becomes available. If you fall off a cliff, you'll die physically, but not as punishment. If you don't cross the bridge to salvation, you'll share in Earth's eventual fiery death, but not as punishment.

Hope that wasn't too "preachy," I tried to be scientific about it. It ain't easy. And again; I could be wrong. All anyone can do is speculate. But it feels right.