Freedom where too draw the line?

Being on ATS I have seen a lot about freedom and liberty ect

Lets be blunt at some point freedom has to be restricted, I think most will agree no one should be free to go next door and kill your neighbours or steal of someone am I correct?

On the other hand there needs to be some limits or you get a totalitarian state.

So the question on ATS is where do you think the line should be drawn?

I think most people want to be free but everyone idea and definition of freedom (IE were they but the bar) is different.
Me?
I’m all for initials freedoms. But think they should end once they negatively affect another individual’s health (unless on self defence), property or future prosperity.

Eg One should be allowed to smoke, but one shouldn’t be allowed allowed to smoke in crowed public room as your forcing that unhealthy choose on others.

Eg one should be free to run their own business and earn what they like, but one shouldn’t be allowed to ruin a business at the expense of health or environment or conduct deliberately exploitation of other nor should they be free to influence politics for their own ends.

Eg one should be allowed to hold opinion even if deemed socially unacceptable. But one should not incite violence or persecution of a section of society.

So where do you stand?

reply to post by crazyewok


Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Almost like a libertarian. Do what you want, but do no harm to others.

And by harm I don't mean hurting someone feelings lol.

reply to post by crazyewok

Freedom should never be restricted. Crime should be prosecuted.

TKDRL
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Almost like a libertarian. Do what you want, but do no harm to others.

edit on Fri, 01 Nov 2013 16:45:22 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

Haha thanks I guess. I try not to put my self into a set "camp" though

Though I intrested in what others set thier bar as?

reply to post by crazyewok


Your from the UK right?

kk, So you obviously are pointing this to folks like me whom are United States Citizens.

How would you or anyone else feel from the UK feel, if I made a thread saying something of the like, "A QUEEN???? Really? Do the people whom honor a Queen and a bloodline NOT realize the world has changed and perhaps evolution should have taken us away from blood lines as rulers?"?

Not trying to be argumentative with you but just trying to show you how the finger pointing and talking about a culture you don't belong to or understand, can be dangerous.

A lot of the problems we have here across the pond from you folks are pretty much the same. We over here talk about freedom and liberty because we haven't allowed the global elite to take away our ability to defend ourselves. They are working on it though.

greencmp
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Freedom should never be restricted. Crime should be prosecuted.

But a prosecuted crime results in loss of freedom as in jail?

There for one can muder someone but socity deems its wrong as us such onces freedom is restricted.

And if we take your deffinition what freedoms should become crimes ?

Infcat under your deffinition everyone in North Korea has "freedom" its just that 99% of there freedoms are crimes. But they are still free to commit those crimes, like someone in a libertarian socity would be free to murder, either way in both cases its bodes badly.

My Dad had a very simple way of putting this and it's stuck with me too.

Your rights to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness end at my property line, and mine, at yours.

Where one crosses the other? A law needs made to address it, so everyone knows what happens when common sense is over-ridden by dumb or some other factor. Hopefully causing one to respect that line.

In spirit, that should be the overall test for all restrictions of freedom. Is this necessary to stop the rights of one person from directly violating the rights of another? No? Well...no law.

Simple.

reply to post by crazyewok


The US Constitution and Bill of Rights are pure genius. They are based off the Magna Carta and add some procedural stuff for the government to operate. It also has a means to be amended and adjudicated.

You know it's good when powerful, greedy people spend so much time trying to destroy it.

In practice, it's gonzo. The Executive branch pulls all the strings.

It's sad that the US went so far astray but I bet another future nation will adopt the US constitutional framework as a starting point. It's that good. On par with the Magna Carta IMHO.

reply to post by crazyewok


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. That was my bar. People can do whatever they want, as long as no harm to another comes from it. All the victimless crimes that LEO need to break laws themselves to catch shouldn't be crimes at all. Prostitution and drugs.

seeker1963


Your from the UK right?

So what? The USA is not the only free country.

seeker1963
kk, So you obviously are pointing this to folks like me whom are United States Citizens.

WRONG!
Im directing it at everyone on ATS

seeker1963
How would you or anyone else feel from the UK, if I made a thread saying something of the like, "A QUEEN???? Really? Do the people whom honor a Queen and a bloodline NOT realize the world has changed and perhaps evolution should have taken us away from blood lines as rulers?"?

Your free to make such a post. Though 99% of us in the UK know she has no power.

seeker1963
Not trying to be argumentative with you but just trying to show you how the finger pointing

Erm no Im not.....Infact I dont know what part of my post was finger pointing......anyone?

seeker1963
and talking about a culture you don't belong to or understand, can be dangerous.

What you going to drone strike my hosue? Sersoulsy that why im asking such a queation, to hear from round the world what they deem as freedom as everyone deffinition will most likley be diffrent. Its called learning and exploring, something your Americans should try once in a while between bombing the crap out of people.

seeker1963
A lot of the problems we have here across the pond from you folks are pretty much the same.

First corrcet point in the post you have made.

seeker1963
We over here talk about freedom and liberty

so do we. Our deffinitions may be diffrent though, which is what this thread is out to explore.

seeker1963
because we haven't allowed the global elite to take away our ability to defend ourselves. They are working on it though.

This isnt a gun debate thread. Though at the end of the day your guns havent done you much good as you are still in the same mess the UK is. Anyway Im in favour of more relaxed gun laws in the uk.

reply to post by crazyewok


Why so upset? Did I strike a nerve??

It amazes me that as an American I see so many people from other countries that bash us! Most of the time they have a right to do so based upon my governments actions abroad. However, I really don't see many of my fellow Americans bashing those of other countries on their CULTURE!!!! That was my whole point, and it obviously went right over your head..............

TKDRL
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. That was my bar. People can do whatever they want, as long as no harm to another comes from it. All the victimless crimes that LEO need to break laws themselves to catch shouldn't be crimes at all. Prostitution and drugs.

I think we are on the same lines there.

I would said something more on those lines myself but T&C on here and all.

But lets take prostitution. I myslef dont approve but thats me, anyone else should be free to decide as its two concenting adults and not my buisness. The only line should be drawn if it improves sex slaverly as that would be takeing ones freedom away.

Good point anyway.

Ive been called an anarchist on occasion, I believe I should be able to do and say as I please as long as that does not harm another.

I don't need the state protecting me from myself.

seeker1963

Why so upset? Did I strike a nerve??

Because you made a false assumption about the thread.

seeker1963
It amazes me that as an American I see so many people from other countries that bash us!

I dont see any USA bashing going on? I certainly havent bashed anyone? Only one doing the bashing is you.

Did you even read what I said? Its just a attempt to see what others round the world view as freedom. You know LEARN AND SHARE! Plus even round the USA Im sure the views will most likley vary so I would shut up and listen.

seeker1963
Most of the time they have a right to do so based upon my governments actions abroad. However, I really don't see many of my fellow Americans bashing those of other countries on their CULTURE!!!! That was my whole point, and it obviously went right over your head..............

No ones bashing anyone on this thread though that my point and it seems to have gone other your head.

crazyewok

greencmp
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Freedom should never be restricted. Crime should be prosecuted.

But a prosecuted crime results in loss of freedom as in jail?

There for one can muder someone but socity deems its wrong as us such onces freedom is restricted.

And if we take your deffinition what freedoms should become crimes ?

Infcat under your deffinition everyone in North Korea has "freedom" its just that 99% of there freedoms are crimes. But they are still free to commit those crimes, like someone in a libertarian socity would be free to murder, either way in both cases its bodes badly.

Yes, jail or preferably death at the hands of the intended victim.

Freedom and murder are so far from being comparable or mistakable for one another as to make me question whether you have thought very deeply about your question.

You are free to eat your sandwich, you are not free to eat my sandwich (nor to murder me and eat me or my sandwich but, I didn't think that we needed to clarify that).

There are no freedoms that are crimes which is why there should never be restrictions on freedoms. To allege that some freedoms are crimes is misleading, to criminalize freedom is by definition totalitarianism.

Im reminded of Kris Kristophersons lyric, sung by Janis Joplin...
"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose..."
*Me and Bobby McGee

When the God-given and unalienable rights are infringed, that's where I draw the line.

I believe every human being should have the ability to freely make their own decisions, without interruption or bias. When you have a body, such as a government, telling you what you can and cannot do, that no longer is freedom. When the voice of the People is no longer heard, and instead turned into oppression, there is no longer freedom. When the global elite decide to cram their rule down our throats, there is no longer freedom. Essentially, I believe that when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

By no means do I condone the lawless and ruthless acts of, say, murderers, rapists, and that sort of thing. Indeed, there should be a set form of structure to keep society intact and functioning. But when that structure begins to crumble from corruption, greed, and special interests, then it has become a failed system. It thus becomes the duty of the People to go in and replace, or at the very least rebuild, the system into a functioning one to serve the People, not oppress them.

For instance, I am a proud III%er, and I love my country and will die defending her, but I will also fight to prevent it from being destroyed from the inside.

I also have great respect for others across the globe who stand up to tyranny and oppression! Let the voice of the People be heard, instead of the actions of the governments! People need to realize that a governments' actions do not always reflect the desires of it's People!

greencmp


Yes, jail or preferably death at the hands of the intended victim.

Freedom and murder are so far from being comparable or mistakable for one another as to make me question whether you have thought very deeply about your question.

You are free to eat your sandwich, you are not free to eat my sandwich (nor to murder me and eat me or my sandwich but, I didn't think that we needed to clarify that).

There are no freedoms that are crimes which is why there should never be restrictions on freedoms. To allege that some freedoms are crimes is misleading, to criminalize freedom is by definition totalitarianism.

So in effect a freedom that takes the freedom or forces something extremly negative upon another is not a freedom but a crime?

I can respect that deffinition.

Of course what consitutes a crime is again a line that needs to be drawn. Its not always black and white. If I murderd you and took your sandwich thats pretty clear but. But say I set up a business that handled harmfull chemicals, should I have regulations or should I be free to dump my waste in your water and possibly kill you?

I draw the line on theft, deceit, or violence of any kind. All else is permitted.

I think you've defined the common sense aspect pretty well, CE. And I think the U.S. Constitution is a case in point.

It's only when those of the legal profession get into arguing words and doing slutty interpretations that the muck begins.

As far as the Constitution goes: We, The People, know EXACTLY what it means. It's not legalese, it's wisdom for the most part.

Those who pervert it to "legalese" for various amoral reasons are the problem.

I pretty much know when I'm infringing on someone else's "rights"...and when mine are being infringed on, too.