Why so many people–including scientists–suddenly believe in an afterlife

I think one of the great paradoxes with this subject is that people are looking for physical proof of something that isn't physical: consciousness. In essence, the argument is about whether physical matter is all that exists. So how can physical matter spawn something that isn't physical? If physical matter is all that exists, then consciousness MUST be physical, yet there is no way to measure consciousness whatsoever. Yes, you can OBSERVE its effects, but you can't measure it, weigh it or hold it. You can observe its effects on the brain, but you can't observe IT.

So to me, the question/argument will never ever be answered by hard science since they insist upon physical observation.

reply to post by elysiumfire


Do you visit her grave and place flowers on it?

Why do people do that anyway? To honor their loved one's memory, or can it be the expectation of being able to still communicate with them on a spiritual level?

How many people look at pictures of loved ones and speak to the picture as it if it has a voice? Are they rational all other times except for that particular moments of insanity?

The physical body is gone, yes. But there's something in the human heart that makes us not only remember that person, but that we desire to communicate with them once again? If we know the body is dead, why then the desire to communicate? That would be irrational, I would think. But then why is it built into the human to do this?

Love never dies, and yet love is an emotion of the will. If you loved her, I assume then you still do. And if you still do, then why?

If someone insulted your mother, how would you respond? She's dead, there's no reason to feel insulted, but if they did, what would you think? Would you think to defend her memory? Why? She's not here to feel the insult, you are. So if she is merely dead, then there's no insult.

What would you do if someone insulted your mother's memory?

reply to post by elysiumfire

What a silly question of obviousness. In January of 2012, I sat beside my mother's hospital bed for the last six hours of her life. Yes, I retain her memory, but does she herself survive the death of her physical body, not as a memory in my subconscious, but as an independent surviving entity in her own right, separate and distinct from my memory of her?

Do you ever see her in your "dreams" at night?

My dad died on Aug 2, 2010. I was with him for the last few days of his life. His body is gone - but HE is not. He appears with regularity to me in my dreams, where we carry on conversations and continue sorting out situations together, and TO ME, it IS HIM, spending time with me.

It's VERY comforting. And FUN!!

thebtheb:

So how can physical matter spawn something that isn't physical?

I'll simply refer you to magnetic fields or radio waves...things of that ilk. If you're going to come back at me, make sure your science is sound, along with your logic...lol.

WarminIndy:

Do you visit her grave and place flowers on it?

Not at all, she was cremated, and we still retain her ashes in the urn they give you. My brother has the urn. She's gone, and I don't have any compunction to want to seek to communicate with her, what would be the point? I know she no longer exists. I have a display cabinet with photos of her and her sister my aunt (also deceased), and that is all I need. The only thing I found irksome was allowing time to break the habit of meeting her for lunch every week, on occasion I would have to catch myself from thinking I had to go meet her, but it soon wore off. I have had no communications of any kind from her. No DBV's no ADC's, nothing at all in dreams.

wildtimes:

...TO ME, it IS HIM, spending time with me.

In my opinion you yourself are working out latent issues with your memory of him. You must have have been close to him and have had a good relationship? I'm not seeking to beguile you of the comfort your perception brings, if it works for you, more power to you, but it hardly constitutes evidence of post-mortem survival.

reply to post by elysiumfire


Wildtimes have fun with this one.

Elysium
That's funny that you named yourself after the afterlife.

Elysium or the Elysian Fields (Ancient Greek: Ἠλύσιον πεδίον, Ēlýsion pedíon) is a conception of the afterlife that developed over time and was maintained by certain Greek religious and philosophical sects and cults. Initially separate from the realm of Hades, admission was initially reserved for mortals related to the gods and other heroes. Later, it expanded to include those chosen by the gods, the righteous, and the heroic, where they would remain after death, to live a blessed and happy life, and indulging in whatever employment they had enjoyed in life.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

I knew that already but thought I would throw it in there.

elysiumfire
thebtheb:

So how can physical matter spawn something that isn't physical?

I'll simply refer you to magnetic fields or radio waves...things of that ilk. If you're going to come back at me, make sure your science is sound, along with your logic...lol.

WarminIndy:

Do you visit her grave and place flowers on it?

Not at all, she was cremated, and we still retain her ashes in the urn they give you. My brother has the urn. She's gone, and I don't have any compunction to want to seek to communicate with her, what would be the point? I know she no longer exists. I have a display cabinet with photos of her and her sister my aunt (also deceased), and that is all I need. The only thing I found irksome was allowing time to break the habit of meeting her for lunch every week, on occasion I would have to catch myself from thinking I had to go meet her, but it soon wore off. I have had no communications of any kind from her. No DBV's no ADC's, nothing at all in dreams.

wildtimes:

...TO ME, it IS HIM, spending time with me.

In my opinion you yourself are working out latent issues with your memory of him. You must have have been close to him and have had a good relationship? I'm not seeking to beguile you of the comfort your perception brings, if it works for you, more power to you, but it hardly constitutes evidence of post-mortem survival.

What about consciousness creates a magnetic field? The brain does, consciousness? Where's your science?

reply to post by WarminIndy

If the after life is true there are a multitude of questions to ask
1) Is it faith based or universal?
2) Could your beliefs shape your final experiences?
3) How could any mortal receive true insights on the other side?
4) Are the founders of multiple religions presenting true insights or blind guesses?
5) If the afterlife is valid does that make reincarnation obviously valid?

thebtheb:

What about consciousness creates a magnetic field? The brain does, consciousness? Where's your science?

I'll apologise for my ignorance firstly, as I'm not quite sure how to interpret your reply. The grammar is too colloquial. I will assume you are actually stating the following..."How about consciousness creates a magnetic field, the brain does, so perhaps consciousness, too? Where's your science?"

You are asking questions on 'consciousness', a very difficult subject for which to articulate a brief answer in the space given. We can agree on your original observation that consciousness is not physical, certainly not in the conventional understanding of physicality; nor does it have a solid matter substrate. Consciousness is the end product (rather a by-product) of a set of conditions and a set of energetic processes. See my hypothetical postulate on consciousness in my earlier post to 'Wildtimes' on page 7.

Consciousness is a resonant field, it is to the physical body of the organism, as light is to the light bulb. It arises in the body out of the energetic processes occurring within at quantum level, that is where the energy that places the organism in the conscious state originates, as an extremely weak signal. This signal is picked up at cellular level and amplified, this is how you get your sense of 'possession' of your own body. Consciousness is not one field, but an incalculable amount of tiny fields switching on and off in rapid overlap correspondence. We of course, perceive these many tiny fields as one field, and we call it mind.

The thing to understand is that every quantum interaction that takes place anywhere and everywhere in the universe, includes the raising of this resonance, the presence of which in organic life forms places them in the conscious state. This is the effect this energy resonance has on organic life forms.

Sentience and awareness are distinct from consciousness, because they arise after the organism is placed in the conscious state, and when the necessary organic circuits are formed, such as the brain structure; but more importantly, when the organism has evolved the faculty of assimilating life experience sensations and capturing them (almost like a photo-snapshot) as memory. Looping feedback mechanisms feed the experience signal from initial sensory sensation to short-term memory and thus imbues the conscious experience of the signal, and then cross-references that signal with long-term memory data. If the experience has already been assimilated, it will not be assimilated again, if not, repeated experience of the sensory sensation will be assimilated into long-term memory. During this process, sentience and awareness arises. The 'observer', or more succinctly, the 'ghost-in-the-machine' is simply layered cross-referential signals.

The brain itself does not generate consciousness, nor does it actually think. The brain is simply the medium through which these processes occur.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Seems like you care a lot about what others will think of you, and how they are going to judge you for what you say...
There is no need for that, be yourself, say whatever you want to say, and act as you feel... it is normal that many people will not like you but some will.... and if you think about it, not all people around you deserve to be your friends.
The most important is to find someone that you feel good hanging around and not be stressed for what you say.
I used to be just like that...

On the subject NDE is not death, so it's Irrelevant...
When NDE occurs the body changes the chemistry of the brain like when we are dreaming, only this time occurs while we are awake. It is very close to '___' experienses. cause it is almost the same chemical substance.
In fact no matter what experiences anyone has, those are experienced while he is alive..... and none ever will know what happens then, while he is still alive.
I am not saying consioussness dies I just don't know, like everyone else....
many will say I believe this, and I believe that, but we are not talking about beliefs
the beliefs are made by fear, and it is a normal defense tactic towards the unknown.
All I have to say is live and enjoy the ride cause it happens only once. (probably)

elysiumfire

The brain itself does not generate consciousness, nor does it actually think. The brain is simply the medium through which these processes occur.

Can you actually prove that?
If thats the case then why people with brain damage can't think properly?
amd why when someone hits his head hard, has amnesia?

If (as you say) ''The brain is simply the medium through which these processes occur. '' then how can these processes occur without it? and if they can't , then the brain is what generates the consciousness...

datasdream
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

If the after life is true there are a multitude of questions to ask
1) Is it faith based or universal?
2) Could your beliefs shape your final experiences?
3) How could any mortal receive true insights on the other side?
4) Are the founders of multiple religions presenting true insights or blind guesses?
5) If the afterlife is valid does that make reincarnation obviously valid?

1: No it is not faith based as many people from other religions have NDEs and there have been atheists as well.
2: No, all cultures had a belief in the afterlife, it didn't start with Christians.
3: You are no longer mortal at that moment.
4: Since what you call "founders" of multiple religions, to which are you referring? Christianity is an evolved off-shoot of Judaism. Islam has a founder. Jesus was not a "founder" He was a reformer, but didn't leave Judaism to start another one. And religions have been around a very, very long time. Religion didn't start recently.
5: As a Christian, I believe "It is appointed unto man once to die, then after this the judgment". Even karma has the accountability factor, that determines if you were so good or bad, how you come back.

NDE means "near death" and not total death. But the afterlife belief is not new and didn't start with Christians. If it did, then all the Crusaders should be in Valhalla.

What a silly title. "Aging scientists" or "people who have had NDEs and happen to be scientists" would have been more accurate.
Your idea of "proof" is equally amusing. It's like claiming to have proof of a place I dreamed of just because it felt real in my dream. Don't get me wrong, that place might indeed exist somewhere but to say that my dream is undeniable proof of its existence is ludicrous.

wildtimes
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

because the only way to find out absolutely involves a one way trip.

But see? That's the thing. There are NDEs reported by people who had rigor setting in. Who had been dead for hours....even DAYS in morgue lockers.....

Once you start looking at the stories and sifting through the "hoaxed" ones and the genuine ones, it starts to become crystal clear. Hell, that may even have been what happened to Jesus!!

They were, more than likely, merely hallucinating.

sleepdealer
What a silly title. "Aging scientists" or "people who have had NDEs and happen to be scientists" would have been more accurate.
Your idea of "proof" is equally amusing. It's like claiming to have proof of a place I dreamed of just because it felt real in my dream. Don't get me wrong, that place might indeed exist somewhere but to say that my dream is undeniable proof of its existence is ludicrous.

So what makes it proof, the existence of a place you dreamed about? So your dream isn't proof that a place exists, but if you have never been there, how do you know the place really exists?

Would you dream of Paris, France because Paris, France is real? If you have never been to Paris, France and dream about being there, then how do you know it is Paris, France?

But if you dream about being on a street in Paris, France, and you don't the name of the street, and one day you go to Paris, France and stand on that street suddenly remembering your dream, was that precognition or deja vu? Dreams contain precognition, so how it is there can be no place in the afterlife?

If a place in the afterlife does exist and people have been dreaming dreams of precognition of it, then go there to experience it, then it is as viable as any other place. That is more proof to me than someone saying "imagine" a world. Didn't John Lennon tell you to imagine no heaven and no hell? How did he know there was no such place, from imagination?

And if you can take it from his imagination, then why not believe those who have been there and back? Is it because you don't want anything that removes your belief in John Lennon's imagination? You simply don't believe because your imagination won't allow you yet.

sleepdealer

wildtimes
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

because the only way to find out absolutely involves a one way trip.

But see? That's the thing. There are NDEs reported by people who had rigor setting in. Who had been dead for hours....even DAYS in morgue lockers.....

Once you start looking at the stories and sifting through the "hoaxed" ones and the genuine ones, it starts to become crystal clear. Hell, that may even have been what happened to Jesus!!

They were, more than likely, merely hallucinating.

Can you prove that?
If you can't then it is an assumption on your part.

reply to post by datasdream

If the after life is true there are a multitude of questions to ask
1) Is it faith based or universal?
2) Could your beliefs shape your final experiences?
3) How could any mortal receive true insights on the other side?
4) Are the founders of multiple religions presenting true insights or blind guesses?
5) If the afterlife is valid does that make reincarnation obviously valid?

(These answers are based on what I've read of NDErs reports, and scientific inquiry into the nature of hallucination/dream/death and "reality").

1) It is universal
2)Yes
3) By going there, or by communication from there
4) A thread of truth is woven through-out most of them - but otherwise, blind guesses
5) No, it doesn't make it "OBVIOUSLY" valid, but it certainly supports the idea

Excellent questions. I guess you haven't looked into it much? You might check out the links provided throughout the thread, especially Mellen-Thomas Benedict's NDE.

reply to post by sleepdealer


What a lack of imagination. Why bother posting? So late in the game?? It's interesting to talk about (obviously, as it has concerned mankind since FOR EV ER).

Dr1Akula
On the subject NDE is not death, so it's Irrelevant...

When the heart stops ... you are dead.


I was talking to my neighbor the other day. He died a month ago. He died multiple times. The doctors in the hospital had to keep shocking him to bring him back. He very clearly remembers each time he died. He remembers being outside his body and looking at it. He remembers what the doctors were doing. He saw things that he couldn't possibly have seen if he was still inside his dead body that had it's eyes closed. He saw 'the tunnel of light' ...

He was in the hospital for a long while and is now out. He died due to his blood suddenly clotting all over the place. He's now on drugs to keep the clotting away. But he remembers EVERYTHING FROM OUTSIDE HIS BODY while he was dead. He proved he was outside it by the things he saw at the angle he saw them.

So yes ... NDE is dead.

reply to post by wildtimes


Indeed, your so-called proof is nothing but the fruit of imagination wrapped up in insecurities. At least for now.