Why so many people–including scientists–suddenly believe in an afterlife

WarminIndy

You do realize, don't you, that for most Christians, this disqualifies me as a Christian in their eyes...lol.

Maybe that's why some pastors don't like me in their churches, because I disagreed with them and they knew it?

That's why I am not an Orthodox Christian, because I have experienced something that they try to suppress.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Most nominal "Christians" these days would disqualify Christ himself from being a "Christian", just like his own countrymen the Jews did to him back in the day. Do a miracle? Obvious witchcraft! Burn 'im! Preach what they don't want to hear? Obvious doctrinal error! Stone 'im!

When a people disqualify the founder of their own tenets from belonging to their club, one has to wonder just WHICH has it wrong. Well, I don't wonder about it too hard myself - I've made my decision in that arena - but you get my drift.

WarminIndy

AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Indeed. It qualifies as 'witchcraft'.

LOL.

Where is that icon for that?

I wasn't even born with a veil covering my face, as I have heard some people say that qualifies one to be a "witch". Huh? Veil covering your face? What does that even mean?

Also called a "caul" instead of a "veil". As I understand it, it's part of the amniotic sack that traps the head of the baby until removed. My dad had one when he was born, and could get downright spooky at times. Whether the veil had anything to do with that in reality, or whether that's just a coincidental old tradition, is anyone's guess.

wildtimes
reply to post by nenothtu

 

"They're so other-worldly minded that they ain't no Earthly good." They concentrate so much on their next world that they neglect their tasks in this one.

Exactly. Yes, there's more there, but I see where you are coming from. It infuriates me that so many are apathetic about what's happening "here" and "now", which is really all we have. Truly.

Whether or not it's "all we have" is often under debate, but what isn't debatable I think is that it IS "all we can affect", regardless of what we have now or hope for in future. If we are to "do good", then the only place and time we can do that is here and now, and some of those folks are off trying to force their way into a "there and then" that they may never see, for whatever reason.

I think their bible has something to say about "men who lay hands on the kingdom through violence",. That would be them, I think, although I prefer to think of it as "trying to get to heaven on a technicality". There are all sorts of ways to do violence, and not all involve physically slappin' someone around.

They concentrate so much on "the next world", and whether they can force their way into it or not, that they do no good HERE. Of that sort of person, one who says "I did this or I did that, so lemme IN!" Jesus spoke and said "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I know ye not."

See, according to their book, he concentrated his effort HERE while he was here.

They seem not to have a knack for that, or much interest in it other than to go through a few motions so that they can check the box on their "get to heaven" list. On top of that, their list has usually been made by Some Guy, and the check boxes present on it may not matter at all...

Serdgiam
The website is just eating my posts

Thats a whole lot of time down the drain...

Ill have to revisit this tomorrow, AI. That is extremely frustrating.

edit on 7-11-2013 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

Your posts are still there - we just have to quote them in order to read them.

There is a glitch in the matrix, a disturbance in the force...

reply to post by nenothtu


No, there was more. But he'll add the rest when he has time.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Yes, there was quite a LOT more - at least more than shows up in the thread. If I quote his posts, I get a dissertation here - but only on the "reply" page that contains the quoted post. It's almost a form of steganogrphy - it's there, but hidden unless you quote it.

One thing I noticed is that the word "more" in square brackets is at a point in the posts well beyond where it ought to be - after his added text, rather than after the part he directly quoted.

reply to post by Serdgiam

What I think is neat about the direction this thread is unfolding.. is that we are starting to discuss the actual processes and avenues that may be in place wherein these experiences are carried out. I absolutely love that! Because, its not necessarily a matter of if these things happen, its "how." If they dont happen, then there is no reason to have a discussion in the first place. If they do happen (life after death, and the other topics that invokes), then they have a process and pattern which can be explored.

Hiya, Serdg, again.

Your posts are showing up on my puter; the other day, the OP of this thread got truncated somehow, and I alerted staff. Skep Overlord fixed it, but I don't know what was wrong with it - it seemed to have to do with use of parentheses and brackets????

Anyway, yeah, just let them know in the USE THIS THREAD TO REPORT BUGS thread.

I still see them, though.

ON TOPIC: My books arrived yesterday, the Chris Carter 'trilogy'. I'm starting with the first one:
Science and Psychic Phenomena: The Fall of the House of Skeptics, to get them in sequential order. Only got to about chapter 3, but so far it's FASCINATING, and shows how science has "ignored" the research due to peer pressure to be scoffers - a holdover from 3 centuries of 'fighting it.'

The other two of his are Science and the Afterlife Experience: Evidence for the Immortality of Consciousness
and
Science and the Near-Death Experience: How Consciousness Survives Death.

The first one is copyright 2007, the second is 2010, and the third is 2012. So - VERY recent work, and absolutely recommended reading.

:thumb up:

Wierd bug on that... Im going to start working on the reply though.

When I go to quote it, all I am able to see is just the part I was able to "salvage," which was basically the intro. I got to yapping, and undoubtedly went beyond the character limit. I am guessing that created some sort of issue when posting.

To be clear on all of this though, I am not even proposing it as a theory. At best, it is a hypothesis, but more accurately, just a thought experiment that relates to the larger impacts of the model our team has been working towards. The actual work has little to do with the topic, but the implications might very well be there.

edit: *shakes fist @ board coding*

How a wave interacts between the meeting of two mediums was described in the parts I was able to salvage. I use water and air because I think they are, visually, the easiest ones to use.

But, how would this relate if one of the mediums does not have space-time as a function?
First, the assumption must be made that space-time is a medium like water and air. Accurate or not, it is critical to the thought experiment. At that point, we must ask ourselves, "how would the mediums interact?" Ripples, waves, and even basic movement strictly rely on space-time as part of the literal equation. Their form takes shape over time, but not instantaneously. However, the full data packet has to have the totality of the data at any given time. This could be looked at as "no energy is technically lost or created, it just changes form." The energy could be deemed as "n=" In this, the "Truth," if you will, of the water droplet hitting a pool of water remains entirely unchanged in totality, it just changes its form over time due to various interactions.

Now, what happens when one of the mediums does not have space or time as part of the equation? If this were to be applied in the scenario with water and air, the flat line on the graph would be present at the same time as the ripples. Physically, the parameters for the body of water "at rest" are still there as part of the data packet, but since we perceive these things as they fractal out over time, we are not privy to the information as the energies are exchanged. So, even though the flat line of the surface of the medium is present, and what the ripples will eventually return to, we are simply not capable of actively perceiving this as our physical senses rely upon relativity. It is akin to taking a picture of a highway with a very, very slow exposure and a very fast exposure time. We are not seeing anything different, technically, but how they appear to us is vastly different. In the former, we would see blurs of lines which could be related to the ripples. In the latter, we see minute details, even down to paint scratches and door dings, which could be related to the flat line. Its a rough comparison, but visually, I think it works. All of that data is present at all times, but when viewed through space-time using differing parameters, the data that is perceived changes.

A circle, when plotted over time, becomes a wave. However, to be able to parse all of the original data of the circle at any given time, we need to have some sort of mechanism that carries the data packets. I think the easiest way to do this, in this discussion, is the sine and cosine function of the circle. These are 90 degrees out of phase with each other. However, these will only be able to carry the position of two of the boundaries of the circle. Without going too deeply into it, to have the four boundaries available to be parsed at any given time, we must also have the inverse functions of the sin/cos so we know the four boundary points of the original circle. As these propagate, they can help us define the boundaries, or full data packet, of the original circle at any given time. So, when moving through space-time, it introduces the need of some indepedent carriers that work simultaneously. I think this can also be reduced down to three points and still retain the full data of the original circle, but that is a whole discussion unto itself. I think its important to mention though, and also important to go into it a bit later.

All of that might seem unrelated, but hopefully I will be able to successfully tie it in visually. It is also important to understand that these things dont work as they "appear" to work to us directly. We have to correctly visualize how it works in the medium of space-time before we can visualize how it might work when including a medium that does not have space-time as a variable.

Now, onto how these physics might work at the boundary of time and space..

How would these interactions between mediums look if one of them does not include movement, relativity, or any of the other derivatives of space-time? Is it even possible to have an interaction between the mediums at this point?

If you fill a glass of water, you can see the surface tension at the top. In this area, it has slightly different behaviors than the body of water itself. So, above the surface tension you have the air, and below the surface tension you have the body of water. This area of surface tension is where a lot of the boundaries, actions, and behaviors derive. When you move the bottom of the surface tension faster than the top of the surface tension (with water specifically), we start to see some very interesting behavior. Though, that behavior isnt quite on topic.

Much in the same way, I visualize the medium of space-time to have a similar surface tension, and it is in this surface tension that a lot of the behaviors that I will talk about occur.

When a "droplet" of space-time hits the boundary of the medium without space-time it might create action within the surface tension of space-time. No movement can occur, innately, in the medium without space-time, but in space-time the full data of the packets must still retain its totality regardless. This would mean the straight line on the graph (the hard boundary of the timeless medium) and the ripples occur at the same time, but must retain their coherency as to what the original data packet "is." So, instead of the flat line being replaced by the ripples as in water, the ripples are created in the surface tension just above the hard boundary. I think the easiest way for this to be done, without introducing anything "new," but still being capable of retaining coherency of the original object, the reflection and refraction that happens in the surface tension relies on the same behavior as moving from the circle to the waves, so, essentially, rotated 90 degrees out of phase. Visually, this could been seen as two squares that make up an eight pointed star, but happening in 3d. The top square could be seen as slightly higher in elevation (z axis) than the bottom. Going with three data points, rather than four, can be visualized as a stellated octahedron, but without the bottom and top pointy parts.

Now, the question is, is there any interaction whatsoever between the medium of space-time and the medium without space-time? If there isnt, then it is a pretty short discussion. If there is, then it would also have to manifest in this basic interaction between the two mediums. When you put a straw into that water filled glass, we can see that it has its own unique interaction in the surface tension itself. We can see it "as it is" in the water itself, and we can see it "as it is" in the air but something happens in the surface tension.

cont.

Is there a proverbial "straw" that is able to reside in both the medium of space-time, and the medium without it? And how might it manifest to our perception and observation? Would it change the overall shape of the basic interaction we have been talking about?

To make it short (er), I think it might manifest in the force that we see as magnetism. I think it would most readily fit, but perhaps you think it might be something else. If thats the case, then feel free to share please! I also think that it would change the shape, just as we see with the location of the different "parts" of a straw in water. We have it "as it is" in the water (water-straw), we have it "as it is" in the surface tension (surface straw) and we have it "as it is" in the air (air straw).

In the surface tension of the medium of space-time, it would have to pierce through the original shape, since it is not required to follow the same rules as space-time derived forces. When applied to our original shape, this is where we start to get a pyramid. As the magnetism pierces through this, I think it would also introduce a spin effect because of the movement and friction of changing medium. Instead of being like a bullet entering ballistic gel, however, the movement and friction is uniform as no other forces or variables have been introduced. In this way, magnetism would be like the "water-straw." Meaning, we might consider the "air-straw" to be a better coherent picture, but the view of the magnetic simile is not really within our grasp. At least for now.

Now comes to tying it all in with the discussion at hand. Essentially, we are speaking about avenues and possibilities that help explain the actual process of OOBE, NDE, and various other subjects. It has implications in life after death as well. It would also be the most basic, fully coherent, shape-state between the medium of space-time and the medium of "X." Since this would be a building block, we could see this shape-state manifest in many different ways but the pertinent question is how would we perceive and experience it.

At this point, I walk away a bit from the thought experiment, and into opinion. Since, the answer to that question is likely to be unique to every individual, but with unifying basics (i.e. we all experience it, but different ways).

I think the "middle" (the shape before we introduced magnetism in the thought experiment) could be viewed as our basic physical interactions. The framework that we have built to make sense of a constant barrage of data packets, that we parse through with bio-electrical, and magnetic, signals (our brain). The bottom of the shape would most likely have a bias towards the medium it is closest to, and the top would likely have a bias towards the medium it is closest. If something like a stellated ocahedron is a basic shape-state in this way, then it might manifest in the way we perceive the world as well. At that point of philosophy, its not hard to imagine that the six outside "points" could be akin to our senses. The ones that are closer to the medium of space-time might be touch, taste, and sight while the bottom might be sound, smell, and "whatever you want to call it" (intuition, psychic, premonition, etc). I would think that the ones closer to the timeless medium would be more strongly linked with memory. The listing is essentially arbitrary though, and certainly debatable.

Obviously, we still havent talked about the very top and the very bottom in our interlocked pyramids. And, I think that is the part that comes into play during the experiences this thread is about. It would be just as valid as the "senses," but it would manifest in a different way given that it is a direct link between the two mediums. Where ALL of the other points reside fully in the surface tension, these two points provide direct contact to each individual medium. I think that we tend to reside more on the material point than the point which has direct contact with "X." BUT, when our ability to parse the data through physical means starts to deteriorate (NDE), the body is still trying to "make sense" of all of the data, and uses any means possible. In this, it starts to utilize the point that makes direct contact with the "other side" of the shape-state, as it decays just a bit more slowly (in the grand scheme of things). In this, we might feel a "fullness" that had not been experienced before. Though it was/is always there all along, innately, it is a more accurate interpratation of the entirety of our being. When resuscitated, I think we might just go back to our habitual interpretation that we have done all of our lives. In that, it all of a sudden feels "less real."

Ok, I think thats long enough.

After having posted, I see that it really turned out quite long...

Sorry about that!

I tried to cut a lot out in order to make it as short as possible, but its still longer than most will want to read.

reply to post by Serdgiam


I wish you'd included a dictionary with that, because your words don't seem to match their known definitions.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


List them. I used words that are trying to paint a picture, so in that, it is not scientific.

If I wanted to show it all in objective terms, I would do it in math!

reply to post by Serdgiam


Thank you for that very thought out proposition. I'm sorry that I can't explain my hypothesis as elegantly as you have, so please bear with me.

What if that sub (negative) dimension of quantum reality isn't without time and space but is merely a "tension skin" or membrane to another reality where time is moving in the opposite direction as ours. Like, when a radio wave hits an electron and creates two photons that propel in opposite directions, yet interact as if connected. What if the quantum phenomena of popping in and out of existence randomly is, somehow, an example of something like memory from another dimension?

What if these quark flavors, up, down, strange, charm, bottom, and top, represent the walls, ie barriers to a separate dimension, the way speed, density, temperature, time, space and........ I can't think of another wall......are represented in our reality? What if every direction/wall of the stellated ocahedron represented another dimension with another time direction in the spin?

Then the meeting of these dimensions, (connected like the apex of a pyramid connects all it's walls) and their interaction through to other dimensions could account for memory, planning, and ESP like experiences, including remembering time previous to our existence, seeing the future and knowing the present outside of one's senses.

What I'm trying to say, is, what if there is no dimension where there is no time and space, but connected dimensions where time moves in different directions. Could there be a connected dimension where time moves, not toward chaos, but toward cohesion?

It seems like entropy goes against our nature. Do we rebel against entropy because part of us exists in a dimension where things tend toward making sense, instead of tending toward falling apart and into senility?

windword
What if that sub (negative) dimension of quantum reality isn't without time and space but is merely a "tension skin" or membrane to another reality where time is moving in the opposite direction as ours. Like, when a radio wave hits an electron and creates two photons that propel in opposite directions, yet interact as if connected. What if the quantum phenomena of popping in and out of existence randomly is, somehow, an example of something like memory from another dimension?

To clarify in the context of the above thought experiment, the "quantum" would be part of time and space, its close proximity to the realm without it would be the source of the "strange" behavior that we see. The only thing known about the timeless realm (again, just in the context above), would be that it is timeless.

I think you bring up an interesting point with memory, and perhaps you noted how I specifically mentioned it as I think it is somehow linked with storing experienced data in a certain way.

Its also interesting to think about how the above posted stuff would interact with muliple universes/dimensions. In those, perhaps time is or isnt a part of them as well! I think the balance of the physics that create our specific universe may not be present there either (if multi-verses exist). Its hard to even imagine what it would look like if even just one thing changed. Change the speed of light to 100 cm per second, and all of a sudden, things change very, very quickly!

What if these quark flavors, up, down, strange, charm, bottom, and top, represent the walls, ie barriers to a separate dimension, the way speed, density, temperature, time, space and........ I can't think of another wall......are represented in our reality? What if every direction/wall of the stellated ocahedron represented another dimension with another time direction in the spin?

Then the meeting of these dimensions, (connected like the apex of a pyramid connects all it's walls) and their interaction through to other dimensions could account for memory, planning, and ESP like experiences, including remembering time previous to our existence, seeing the future and knowing the present outside of one's senses.

Well, now you are just going into mindf$*% territory

I think those flavors show the first movements before things start to really move through time. In a way, I look at it similarly to a rifle barrel. By the way the bullet behaves afterwards, we can tell what the inside of the barrel looks like.

I think that these things definitely could go on into other dimensions at other scales, and visually, I think the Koch Snowflake really is applicable. It starts to go into how these basic shapes would interact. I dont think it would be part of a single moment in time, but more something that is at play continuously even in our own body.

What I'm trying to say, is, what if there is no dimension where there is no time and space, but connected dimensions where time moves in different directions. Could there be a connected dimension where time moves, not toward chaos, but toward cohesion?

Well, it is certainly possible. In a multi-verse theory, I think it would even be likely that different universes have completely different boundaries and rules. Because of that, it would be hard to even imagine the possibilities! Though, I do think that these are essentially encapsulated within, and are a part of, a timeless medium. That said, I think that rules of physics that we cant even comprehend OR imagine might encapsulate that timeless medium. Meaning, in a multi-versal existence, the entire ruleset in some universe may contain rules that are not even fathomable to us in any way, shape, or form.

It seems like entropy goes against our nature. Do we rebel against entropy because part of us exists in a dimension where things tend toward making sense, instead of tending toward falling apart and into senility?

I think its possible, and would be quite an interesting thing. In the thought experiment I posed, entropy and gravity are explained by the wavefunctions returning to that original baseline. In other words, the medium of space-time is constantly leaking out because that boundary is not "solid," it can be viewed as a mesh. Areas of massive energetic exchange (black holes) have torn that mesh, and the typical flow rate back into the timeless medium is greatly increased.

I wonder though, if it isnt all just as simple as a back and forth between two dimensions. Where, as you say, in one we decay into entropy, and the other we do the opposite, we cohere and coalesce. When our time in one "runs out," we simply move back into the other. I suppose it might even be possible that this transition not only happens at the end of life, but as part of a continuous motion. And then "this" two dimensional state could be encapsulated in one of the various things we talked about earlier in the post!

All of these point to mechanics that may explain the experience of NDE, OOBE, TM, etc. And, they also give avenues to actually explore life after death. I think that if we really come to understand what is happening during these experiences, we will learn a lot about ourselves and the universe itself in the process.

Whatever we discover to be the mechanisms at play, it will be pretty incredible.

Serdgiam:

...the assumption must be made that space-time is a medium like water and air.

What do you mean by space, time, and space-time? Please define your stance so that we are all reading from the same song sheet. I'm pleased to see you are looking at mechanism.

elysiumfire
Serdgiam:

...the assumption must be made that space-time is a medium like water and air.

What do you mean by space, time, and space-time? Please define your stance so that we are all reading from the same song sheet. I'm pleased to see you are looking at mechanism.

Space-time is what I am referring to, though in the thought experiment, it is closest to the typical type of thinking (as a unified form, which is the reason for the hypenation). It can also be applied to a lot of different arenas.

In this context, the most important part is that it includes time as a function of space. Without space, there is no relativity, and without space, there is no movement and therefore no "time" to be relevant. Time, in this context and at its most basic, would be defined as a the relative movement between two objects/waves.

The "mesh size" of the membrane/surface tension of space-time would be considered a simile to the Planck length.

reply to post by Serdgiam


I can't. I just can't. it would derail the thread and quite honestly, I'm not feeling the challenge. That is to say, I sense a maze composed of invisible walls with no exit door. Sorry, but I'm not dancing to this tune. Maybe someone else can pick your riddles apart.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Maybe someone else can pick your riddles apart.

Thanks for the insight into your perspective. There is no "riddle," though. A thought experiment is a pretty common precursor to scientific exploration. Perhaps learning more about the subject would help with clarity..

reply to post by Serdgiam


It hurts too much to think about, if that tells you anything. And you know how much I like to think...

Learning about the subject doesn't guarantee that I will understand your vocabulary. Text books don't explain it as you do, nor do they necessarily reflect your understanding and inflection.