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Debt To China Is Null And Void

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posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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I tried conducting a search for this but my stupid smartphone has egregious load times. I'm sure it has been mentioned somewhere, but this definitely bears repeating.

On Drudge, I pulled up the story about China State Television releasing a map of a nuked America. While reading the comments on the story, someone mentioned the debt owed to America by the Chinese. I had never heard of this even though I consider myself "in the know".

I took a dive down that rabbit hole and found the following:

During WW1, China sold sovereign bonds worldwide to many investors....most being in America.
Those bonds are gauranteed through the International Court of Settlements AND by PRC as SOVEREIGN DEBT. That means that in 1949, when Communists took over China, that the successor government ie: the Communist Party in charge, took over that obligation under International Law.

With interest and penalties owed on the debt, China OWES the US of A $800 BILLION!!!! Let that sink in for a second....


That means that right now...this very second....the US of A could dollar for dollar offset our bond interest we owe China. So...why on Gods green Earth are we allowing our government to continue paying these reneggers ANYTHING!!??


Want to be more upset? In 2006 the Chinese Minister of Finance sent a communication to the US Embassy in China in which China REPUDIATED its full faith and credit sovereign debt and announnced that it would NOT repay ANY debt owed to America. Yes, China told the US of A to take a hike. And how do we respond? By paying our interest to them every month ON TIME. WTF is that crap!?


China tried doing the same crap to Britain. Know how the Brits responded? By not allowing China out of European Markets until they repaid what was owed to them. China immediately paid the debt. Way to stand up Britain!! We in the US have apparently lost our testicular fortitude to DEMAND repayment, so kudos to you guys.


In total, China has defaulted on those bonds to the tune of $5 TRILLION worldwide. Meanwhile, those ass clowns tout how much gold and cash reserves they have! Technically, China is worse off than the US....or should be...on paper anyway.


While I'm aware that most of the bonds are held by citizens of the US and not a government agency, I feel this crap should be dealt with in a swift and harsh manner. This money is owed to US so I feel until its paid in full, we shouldn't pay China one red cent for anything. When you add in the YEARS of espionage where China has stolen military secrets and consistently sold knock offs of American made products, I believe its China that should be paying the US of A money every month.


When a rogue country like China decides to not pay its bills, but demands repayment of bills owed, they need to be slapped...HARD. I hate war...its stupid and only benefits the "machine". However...since the world considers the US of A to be the worlds bully, I feel we should take Chinas lunch money AND kick them in the shins. If we don't make a stand, it just proves we are a bunch of spineless wuss bags...here to be taken advantage of. I'm tired of getting screwed with taxes while other countries refuse to honor their obligations!!!

For fun, I encourage you guys to try to find any list stating what countries of the world OWE the US of A money. I did, and I couldn't find one anywhere with any type of verified info. In fact, I typed in the following into Google to see what would come up:


Countries which owe America
Debt owed to America
Foreign debt owed to America

I also switched America to both US and USA.

The results pages only showed items relating to the debt WE owe, not owed. I found ONE article stating that HK and Switzerland owed us, but considering it left out China and France, I decided the article was hogwash. I just don't understand how a search for debt owed returns results on debt WE owe. Conspiracy right there.

Anywho, that's what I found today. It makes me so mad to know this crap that I almost can't think straight. Its utter nonsense!

What say you ATS?




posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by imasheep
 


If that's all legit, I doubt that anybody here would disagree with you, in principle. You're pretty much preaching' to the choir.

Take it to Washington, DC and Beijing.

Lemme know how that works out.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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Should this prove to be true, then what about the debt they aquired during WWII ? How much more did they indebt themselves to the rest of the world ?



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 12:42 PM
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I'm really not sure we'd want to see our Government go too deep down this particular hole, searching for riches. They may find others down there ...waiting patiently for *US* to pay up some Ungodly amounts by now. Interest and all can be a real ugly thing.

Anyone consider the broken treaties and deals with, say, the Native Americans as just one example? That wasn't ancient history after all. Unlike China, there hasn't even been a Sea Change of Government. We still have the same one, unbroken in succession and lines of control.

So, we chase China for a few hundred billion or even trillion ...and the Ghosts of bad deals long past taps Uncle on the shoulder with a bill for several times that ..expecting payment in full. Nawww..... Perhaps we best not push too much on that. Just my thinking.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 12:52 PM
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Wrabbit2000
I'm really not sure we'd want to see our Government go too deep down this particular hole, searching for riches. They may find others down there ...waiting patiently for *US* to pay up some Ungodly amounts by now. Interest and all can be a real ugly thing.

Anyone consider the broken treaties and deals with, say, the Native Americans as just one example? That wasn't ancient history after all. Unlike China, there hasn't even been a Sea Change of Government. We still have the same one, unbroken in succession and lines of control.

So, we chase China for a few hundred billion or even trillion ...and the Ghosts of bad deals long past taps Uncle on the shoulder with a bill for several times that ..expecting payment in full. Nawww..... Perhaps we best not push too much on that. Just my thinking.


Dear Mr. B. Obama


Dude, Where's our gold?

Sincerely
Germany



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:12 PM
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Wrabbit2000
I'm really not sure we'd want to see our Government go too deep down this particular hole, searching for riches. They may find others down there ...waiting patiently for *US* to pay up some Ungodly amounts by now. Interest and all can be a real ugly thing.

Anyone consider the broken treaties and deals with, say, the Native Americans as just one example? That wasn't ancient history after all. Unlike China, there hasn't even been a Sea Change of Government. We still have the same one, unbroken in succession and lines of control.

So, we chase China for a few hundred billion or even trillion ...and the Ghosts of bad deals long past taps Uncle on the shoulder with a bill for several times that ..expecting payment in full. Nawww..... Perhaps we best not push too much on that. Just my thinking.


Nope, wouldn't happen.

The one thing you forget, in order to enforce debt, you have to have one thing FORCE.

You need to be able to exert some leverage, its always that simple.

At the point the leverage is not worth the debt, most people walk away.

Frankly, the world has let the US acquire a monopoly on a level of "force" the world has never see, it would take the leverage of a United Globe to really force the issue on the US.


+1 more 
posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:17 PM
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That's not quite what happened. China actually caused the recent US crash in revenge for the US creating an identical one in Asia in 97/98.

The US boom came to a peak end in 1997, the US exerted pressure on South East Asia to drop all market regulation and allow global markets to get a stake. Once openned up Western capital flooded into the areas and created the 'Asian Miracle'.

Yet as quickly as it began a financial crisis soon arose as it dawned on a small group of US politicians and economists led by Stiglitz that they'd created a spectacular bubble that would completely decimate the area once it finally burst - In Stiglitz words 'It was not in the interest of Asia or the US. It only benefited a tiny number of people who made money by highly speculative investments that produce short term capital flows such as bankers and hedgefunds'.

Soon Asian companies began to go bust, and noticing the problem Western investors rushed to take thier money out of the market. The IMF arrived and offered billions in loans to stabalise the country and the condition that they adopted a more Western economy and allow free markets - which meant drastic cuts in public spending.

As soon as the countries agreed and recieved loans, their exchange rates and economies collapsed. Instead of the money stabalising the economy it was transfered straight into the bank accounts of Western companies who immediately pulled out. Many prominent economists pointed out that the IMF were working solely in the interests of Western investors and leading the taxpayer to pay the loan back.

Once the IMF imposed government cuts hit, employment and economic output dropped 15% and leaders like Sahato - who the US and IMF wanted to overthrow to allow free markets and Western economics - we're overthrown in violent revolutions that descended into civil wars.

In response to all this China and other Asian countries took a vow to never let themselves be at the mercy of the US elites and the Politburo began a complex strategy to manage the US. It started by introducing an artificially low exchange rate to create cheap exports that flooded into America, so US dollars flooded into China. These same dollars were used to buy US government bonds.

The end result was the US was flooded with cheap money and goods, so banks started to issue credit to everyone which created dun dun dun..... rampant market speculation and a vast economic bubble based on property, which burst in spectacular fashion. America got into more debt and China gained more and more control of the US.

Karma's a bitch, eh?

EDIT: Completely misread your post but the US owes China $1.3 Tn+ or 500Bn after Chinese debt is paid off.
edit on 1-11-2013 by bastion because: (no reason given)
edit on 1-11-2013 by bastion because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


At our current state of power and status in the world? I agree. It would take a lot. At least if it's an outside nation.

The problem is ..Well, inside our nation? The whole place is run by lawyers, and laws with technicalities are what run this country from top to bottom anymore. So, establish legal precedent by chasing China on 70yr old debt? Then others would suddenly have the basis to play those laws which make us, against the system (or for it, depending on perspective) to make good on promises too long past now to ever afford to make good on.

Heck, get enough precedent about crazy things like chasing generational debt, not serviced in decades? Tribes like the Lakota may just get to thinking the Black Hills would make a fine payment when nothing else could do it. (I might even agree with 'em). Pandora's Box lay down this path, IMO.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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I propose that a few getting obscenely rich is the only thing standing in the way of America of being an effective "bully" and truly asserting world dominance.

One billion people aren't stronger than 100 ICBMs.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by dfens
 


Hope I'm interpreting this wrong but are you saying you want over a billion people murdered/nuclear war rather than the US pay it's debt?



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:59 PM
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Wrabbit2000
reply to post by benrl
 


At our current state of power and status in the world? I agree. It would take a lot. At least if it's an outside nation.

The problem is ..Well, inside our nation? The whole place is run by lawyers, and laws with technicalities are what run this country from top to bottom anymore. So, establish legal precedent by chasing China on 70yr old debt? Then others would suddenly have the basis to play those laws which make us, against the system (or for it, depending on perspective) to make good on promises too long past now to ever afford to make good on.

Heck, get enough precedent about crazy things like chasing generational debt, not serviced in decades? Tribes like the Lakota may just get to thinking the Black Hills would make a fine payment when nothing else could do it. (I might even agree with 'em). Pandora's Box lay down this path, IMO.




And being as it is run by lawyers, comparing internal and external laws is silly.

Thats why their are statue of limitation and such on all debt in almost every state, internally the enforcement of debt is fairly limited.

Not that Im not saying their wouldn't be a good case to hand over the black hills (that whole section of our history is down right shameful, and what was done to the indians has never been atoned for )

but its silly to use that as an example where it would lead, things are not the same on an international stage, the same thinking internally that prevents Native american compensation is the very same thinking that leads to cancel the international debt, or collect whats owed.

Good ole capitalistic greed, its a double edge sword and in this case, plays against the argument of recompense of old debt internally, while supporting the external move of seeking whats owed from china.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by bastion
 


No. What I'm saying is that America has a little more leverage. It was in place during the cold war and we are supposed to believe that it has evaporated and we are now engaged in a financial "cold war"? At the end of the day, might makes right is the point that I'm trying to convey.

If we are to be led to believe that diplomacy is the answer and our limp wristed politicians are the key to brokering peace, then why would our leaders engage in the type of warfare that would cause the suffering of billions of souls rather than to exterminate them.

'They' are just like you and me and everyone else. There is always someone higher up on the food chain.

We are at war for the efforts of people in a global economy for the benefit of not you, or me, or pretty much anyone else, save for a select few.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 02:09 PM
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bastion
reply to post by dfens
 


Hope I'm interpreting this wrong but are you saying you want over a billion people murdered/nuclear war rather than the US pay it's debt?


Idk I think you need a cipher or something to decode their posts.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


Okay, so let me be clear on this for your position? You *DO* think chasing the debt from pre-communist Chinese obligations, in 2013, is the policy the United States should pursue?

My example is only relevant at all if we DID take that course of action and actually DID push hard to collect on it. If not? The whole conversation is moot and without basis.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Not what Im saying, I am saying that Chasing it, would be in line with thinking of Abandoning it, that history has proven the US has a distinct abillity to say one thing and do another. No matter rule of law, or treaty, internal or external.

That greed could justify either stand point.

ETA: Probably not stating myself clearly, basicly the US will do whats in the interest of the US, no matter rule of law. Which could included ditching out on china, or chasing old debt, and that that action would have no effect internally as again the US doesn't care and will do as it pleases.

edit on 1-11-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 


As much as I'd love to debate your point and I so wish I could....

..so much as changed in the past years for how our nation works or ..doesn't work, according to plain law? I just don't have the heart to try anymore. I'm not sure I'd entirely believe the argument myself, based on the point you make there. It's a valid one, for sure.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 04:41 PM
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I'm afraid I don't follow the illogical posts here. In effect, you're saying that we shouldn't be chasing old debt??

That is absurd in every respect. Try not paying your taxes one year and see how long the IRS will hound you for a few hundred bucks....FOREVER! So the point of "chasing old debt" has zero standing. If the government is chasing mom and pop for a few grand and repossessing their houses for back taxes I damned well want them chasing almost a TRILLION Dollars owed to US!

Look at it this way. Would YOU continue to do business with anyone who REFUSED to pay you back?? Idc what we did to the Indians. Its not my fault they sold Louisiana for a sack of corn and allowed themselves to sign treaties.

Besides, what are there...like 10 million Indians?? That's a small drop in the bucket when compared to 320 million Americans. On top of that...Indians, and all other "minorities" get more from this Government than I do. Also, I tire of people claiming to be "American Indian" or any other "type" of American. You're either full American or you're not. Anything less is retarded and whiny talk.


Someone mentioned that we might actually OWE more countries money if we dove down the rabbit hole. POPPYCOCK. We don't owe anyone anything until countries like France, China, Switzerland, and ISRAEL, pay US what they owe.

Some people have said that if we persued this, China may call in its debt or somehow decimate our economy. That's a laugh and a half.
All countries in the world could try to bring down the US economy....they couldn't succeed. Lets say China and Russia form a new petro dollar to screw us. In fact, lets say that ALL countries in the world stopped doing business with us. One thing would happen and one thing only...the world would starve to death and the US would be fine.

You may forget that the US is responsible for 2/3 of the worlds grain production. We also have the most natural gas and oil reserves ON THE PLANET. If the US wanted, it could cease all exports of grain and cattle, and the world would bend on its knees and BEG the US for help.

I feel that's exactly what's called for...a little reminder of who exactly runs the show here. I may not like the direction our country has taken, but the fact remains that we could crush the whole world fairly easily in a war scenario and its high time we start flexing our muscles rather than cowering in the corner.

So, my statement remains....We shouldn't give anyone anything. Theres not a damned thing anyone could do about it...least of all China. Who needs their JUNK anyway.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 04:44 PM
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The U.S. (and other global influences) was successful in getting corporate friendly changes to Chinese laws.

The "wholly owned foreign entity" was the biggest change as were some banking (Rothschild) techniques.

These could be the reason no one will pursue " old debts ".



A wholly owned foreign entity is very similar to a local subsidiary in the United States that is owned by a foreign parent. A wholly owned foreign entity is taxed as an entity, and payments out of it are subject to a second level of dividend withholding. These are the most commonly used business entities for foreign companies in China and can include manufacturing, service and trading activities. They are relatively easy to form, and a Chinese partner is not required, as they are with an equity joint venture or cooperative joint venture. Ownership of patents and trademarks are considered more secure in a wholly owned foreign entity since there will be no Chinese business partner that may assert greater rights or compromise the security of the intellectual property.

For U.S. tax reporting purposes, regulations regarding entity classification were adopted in the United States in 1997. The default rules for foreign entities provide for corporate treatment of a foreign entity (i.e., no pass-through reporting like a partnership) if all the owners have limited liability. In some cases, a cooperative joint venture can have unincorporated status or specify unlimited liability in its documents, so pass-through status would apply. IRS Form 8832 can be used to make a “check the box” election to override or change the status of the entity to avoid uncertainty regarding tax status.

The corporate tax rate through December 2007 was 30 percent, with a 3 percent surcharge added by local tax authorities. However, many foreign-owned businesses paid a much lower rate due to tax holidays (suspension of taxes for a period of time) and tax rate concessions provided to new companies in China. The reduced rates that were used to attract foreign companies to establish operations in China are no longer seen as necessary, however, and are changing.

Going Global: Doing Business in China

___________________




The Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise (WFOE or WOFE) is a Limited liability company wholly owned by the foreign investor(s). In China, WFOEs were originally conceived for encouraged manufacturing activities that were either export orientated or introduced advanced technology. However, after China's entried into the WTO, these conditions were gradually abolished and the WFOE is increasingly being used for service providers such as a variety of consulting and management services, software development and trading as well. With that, any enterprise in China which is 100% owned by a foreign company or companies can be called as WFOE.

Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise

___________________


China and Rothschilds are doing business ... both ways.


Bank of China Limited (BOC) SSE: 601988 SEHK: 3988 (simplified Chinese: 中国银行; traditional Chinese: 中國銀行; pinyin: Zhōngguó Yínháng; often abbreviated as 中銀 or 中行) is one of the big four state-owned commercial banks of the People's Republic of China. It was founded in 1912 by the Government of the Republic of China, to replace the Government Bank of Imperial China. It is the oldest bank in China. From its establishment until 1942, it issued banknotes on behalf of the Government of the Republic of China along with the "Big Four" banks of the period: the Central Bank of China, Farmers Bank of China and Bank of Communications. Although it initially functioned as the Chinese central bank, in 1928 the Central Bank of China replaced it in that role. Subsequently, BOC became a purely commercial bank. Its headquarters are in Xicheng District, Beijing.[2]

In December 2010, the Bank of China New York branch began offering RMB products for Americans.[3] This is the first major Chinese bank to offer such a product currently.




2008 Bank of China buys 20 percent stake in La Compagnie Financiere Edmond de Rothschild (LCFR) for 236.3 million euros (US$340 million)


en.wikipedia.org...






When Jennifer Yu, Rothschild's top executive in China, wanted the firm to advise Chinese carmaker Zhejiang Geely on its bid for Volvo, some colleagues at the bank's headquarters in Europe were skeptical. A senior banker asked her how a "mouse" like Geely could swallow an "elephant" like Volvo. "There's a dragon behind this mouse, and it's China," Yu recalls answering. She and the team handling Geely won the argument, and Geely won the bidding. It completed the takeover of Volvo from Ford Motor (F) for more than $1.3 billion on Aug. 2.

Rothschild, the more-than-200-year-old family-controlled banking dynasty, is making a big move in China, and Yu is leading the charge.

Jennifer Yu Leads Rothschild's China Push






The People's Bank of China (PBC or PBOC) is the central bank of the People's Republic of China with the power to control monetary policy and regulate financial institutions in mainland China. The People’s Bank of China has the most financial assets of any single public finance institution ever.

People's Bank of China




All the politicing is diversionary.


Rothschild targets China


Rothschild Offices
(several in China)



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 04:54 PM
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Meh, our debt to China isn't the thing I'm worried about, it's a drop in the bucket compared to what we owe the Fed, and the Fed has much more power over us than the Chi-Coms. The central banksters pose the real threat to the U.S.



posted on Nov, 1 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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I`m pretty sure we owe them more than 800 billion, maybe china will deduct the 800 billion they owe the U.S. from the trillions the U.S. owes china?





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