Australia, Britain, New Zealand and Canada among NSA Partners!

Another day, another way the NSA has worked to seemingly subvert enemy and ally alike, toward the goal of total surveillance, world wide. This just takes the cake though. Each revelation is worse than the last and each, a bit more shocking than we may have thought possible.

Now? Well.. The story says it all. This story, incidentally, is not from 2nd level media but from the Associated Press and orignally, Der Spiegel.

A document from National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, published this week by German magazine Der Spiegel, describes a signals intelligence program called "Stateroom" in which U.S., British, Australian and Canadian embassies house surveillance equipment to collect electronic communications. Those countries, along with New Zealand, have an intelligence-sharing agreement known as "Five Eyes."

"Five Eyes". Hmm.. That's one I personally hadn't heard before. Interesting.... Embassies though? 4 allied nation's worth of shells to house NSA listening centers along with the legit operations of any Embassy? Oh..my..goodness. I can only think a few Governments will be irate over this.

I imagine it's expected that each nation has intelligence sections and some spying in their own Embassy. I'm not sure how routine or expected it is that one nation will use the Embassies of 4 OTHER countries as well. This casts a shadow across Western Nations as a whole and not simply one of them, I'd think.

Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa said Friday the allegations were deeply concerning and unacceptable.

"Countries may have capacities, technical capacities, to intercept and to carry out the activity that's been reported, and information may have been gathered," he told reporters in Perth, Australia, where he is attending a conference. "But the cost — in terms of trust, in terms of the damage — that may be resulting, is something that we must all reflect on."

Source

Yes, I should think so on the cost vs. benefit issue. In the headlong rush and determination to know everything about everyone, everywhere? It seems a lot of trade offs have been made for our National credibility and ability to operate in every other way, in the name of Big Brother across the entire planet.

I can see and understand the needs as well as aggressive pursuit of spying ..on enemies. Not merely opponents in trade or economics. Enemy nations. That I can absolutely see the need for. The idea that there is a need to spy on EVERYONE to the total level which is being revealed? It's absurd.

Sure, some may say, as I have myself, every major world power does this. Well, yes, every major world power DOES spy on others. The more we learn though, the more I have to reflect and consider here ..... I don't believe every other world power had the ENTIRE planet in mind to watch 24/7 and as close to completely as technologically possible.

I wonder how many generations it may take for the world to trust this nation again in the way it did just a few years or, particularly, 14-15 years ago? Several would be my guess...IF this Super-Big-Bro nonsense ends today, that is. Which it won't, I'm sadly sure.

Another day, Another Way, for the NSA.

Actually this is interesting since a Canadian Spy was charged recently with selling "five eye" information. The collaboration though, (with Canada) actually dates back to the late 60's to 90's when the Echelon program was created and the inception of the CSE (Canada's first real spy agency). Back in those days the US could not operate in Russia so they smuggled in giant spy tech in a safe (if I remember correctly) and set up a post in the Canadian Embassy. In the trade off Canada got to check out the cool stuff the US was working on and the US got a friendly country to let them do their dirty work (because no one trusted them.)

If memory serves correct this collaboration also led to UK spying on many politicians (by the US, requested by UK intelligence) and Canadians operating in a few countries out of their embassies.


Also, there was commotion recently from Canada spying on Brazilian mining operations:

It’s likely we will never know exactly what Canadian spies were allegedly doing snooping around in Brazil’s Ministry of Mining and Energy computers on behalf of the so-called Five Eyes — an intelligence alliance between the United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

www.cbc.ca...

Oh wow, I just searched for the information on the first part I mentioned and a lot of the articles are gone. Found one though:

Alleged Canadian spy leak may have caused major breach of U.S. info: report. 416 words.

A U.S. media outlet reported Tuesday that the suspected leak of military intelligence to Russia by a Canadian naval officer may have created a significant rift between Canadian and American security officials.

news.nationalpost.com...

Manning 2.0? WikiLeaks-scale 'Russian spy' scandal blinds 'Five Eyes'
Published time: March 28, 2012 12:37
Edited time: March 28, 2012 17:24 Get short URL

rt.com...

This puts a whole new spin on the matter. Russia knew about this before Snowden came over.


Also exactly states what I was saying in this post in the beginning, although I didn't realize how old the five-eyes program was.

The breech is said to have touched upon a system open to the so-called Five Eyes, an intelligence alliance between the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Formed after the World War II by the five English-speaking countries, it processes and shares signals intelligence they gather across the globe.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


not surprised really after all Australia's anagram is "a trial USA"....anyone one of the countries that are related to the crown are in bed with each other

reply to post by boncho


Talk about a mess... It's bad enough the United States is getting splashed with the worst form of mud, largely by it's own doing in the case of the NSA ...but you'd think they were going for the grand tour here.

If Canada, the UK, NZ and Australia are looked at as guilty by active cooperation ...That's a good piece of the Western World that comes into serious question for a basic level of trust at the international level?

It's unbelievable what they've done here, just to peep into people's lives and record their words. Everyone's words. Seemingly 'just in case' someday they may need it ..for something. Some day.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well to be honest, over the years the books I've read kind of suggested this was happening. Just when you get evidence of it, people act outraged. I am by no means a world leader, so I suppose the various heads of states would have picked up (or had someone pick up) the same books that I've read.

In fact, the release of this information seems more like it is on purpose. Either engineered by Russia or by the US itself. Maybe Snowden was a spy and no one knew, his whole "voice of truth" routine used to create distrust between the American public and its leaders.

Hell, China, Russia, they all spy on their citizens, and they certainly make an effort on allied countries. No one has clean hands.

Or perhaps the angle is that information on five eyes was leaked to Russia, (from the naval officer in my other post) and instead of letting them have their way with it, the US set up Snowden to leak it, because it would come out more whitewashed that way, the sensitive stuff might not come to light.

I really don't know the first reasons behind the leaks, but I will say it should have been common knowledge, among every world leader, this side of the border and the opposite.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

You know Wrabbit,I will never trust anything to do with electronic comms again.Before Snowden I was pretty sure every+all comms of mine to American friends were intercepted +gathered,along with those of every one else communicating via the net or phone into America.I just wrote it off as one of those resentmous things in life one has to live with like chronic sinusitis or a bad back.

I decided that henceforth I shall just have to refrain from disclosing even to friends,any and everything I deemed not appropriate for perusal by the NSA.

And no matter what "safe" systems are made available as time goes by,I will never again,on this planet,make the assumption of privacy.Whether that system is Russian,Brics,French,Dutch,Korean,South American or whatever else in origin re the designers and developers of said system.I did not need Snowden to tell me what I already knew,that was just an affirmation.

There is one way to keep private that which you Really want to-just keep quiet about it.And that would include actual mouth to mouth
"Real life" conversations in the wilderness while out hunting etc-if the person you are telling your content does'nt give a toss about being discreet when online.

No trust,ever.

reply to post by boncho


I'm really not sure the leaders DID know or believe this was happening. Oh, spying against their nations? Sure... I can't see how other nations, who each have their own security services, could miss how BIG and how powerful the NSA and others were. They are about as subtle as a dump truck full of bad news.

I have to think though, how many world leaders, personally, believed THEIR communications were hopelessly compromised? I mean their own office lines and closest methods of communication? Surely they had counter-intelligence people checking and telling them they were clean. Otherwise, they'd have just fired their way to finding someone who COULD at least say that and believe it themselves.

So, I'm betting that while all knew the US was spying all over and on populations world wide? I doubt they really thought they couldn't even call home from the office as a President, Monarch or Prime Minister without NSA computers whirring hard drives to record every last utterance made.

I think the revelations of late with 30+ leaders on the list of believed targets of NSA attention haven't even begun to be felt yet for what the other nations do in way of a big thank you. Maybe trade issues? Maybe economic? ...maybe other things.

They HAVE to be pretty pissed though. This has them personally in so many cases.

There is actually more to this than meets they eye Wrabbit!

Until just recently it was illegal for the CIA to spy within US borders. It was also illegal to various degrees for MI6, ASIO and like organizations to spy internally. These organizations did not like this so they concocted a agreement.

Basically, if the CIA wanted to spy within the US, they used assets from the other four countries to do so. Reciprocal agreements where the CIA would gather intel within the other partner's country was rife.

The CIA/NSA built an intercept facility in Canada run jointly. The Canadians spied on the US for the CIA and the CIA acquired any internal intel that the Canadians wanted.

That is how five eyes started. It started as far as I am aware back in the mid to late seventies. It went as far as operatives being given IDs by partner countries. So, a CIA guy running round in Australia would have a bona fide ASIO ID to frighten off any local police.

It all grew from there. The entire structure was designed to get around the Laws of the country or to put it another way, to violate the laws knowingly!

P

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Interesting questions you pose. What about business vs. government, business + government, some people in government are an extended arm of business. (For certain players I surmise). There was another thread today mentioning that, Obama halted spying on IMF and World Bank, and when you consider this, the business implications are huge. What information was being disseminated through IMF and World Bank they don't want even in the spy ring?

Consider that they were also spying on the Vatican,

Person of interest

Bergoglio "had been a person of interest to the American secret services since 2005, according to Wikileaks”, it said.

The bugged conversations were divided into four categories: "leadership intentions", "threats to financial systems", "foreign policy objectives" and "human rights”, it claimed.

… One of the reasons being "financial"…

www.aljazeera.com...

If we look at the history of the five eyes spying programs, we see that Maggie Thatcher wanted to use it on unions and also did use it on MPs that had policies unfavourable to her positions:

He said the two ministers were not suspected of being traitors, but Baroness Thatcher felt they disagreed with her over certain policy matters.

www.mirror.co.uk...

Margaret Thatcher wanted MI5 to spy on unions

Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk www.mirror.co.uk...
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

www.mirror.co.uk...

Now, also work in the Mining Industry spying I was talking about before which happened in Brazil. Canada took part, and the TSE and CVE (Canada's two exchanges) are largely made up of mining companies. There are paramount implications of them spying on mining operations:

Brazil demands explanation over reports Canada spied on mine ministry

An outraged Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff demanded answers Monday after a media report alleged Canada electronically eavesdropped on the Brazilian mines and energy ministry in an act of industrial espionage. Canada, however, is saying little.

www.thestar.com...


Many ATSers rant about "Big Business, TPTB, the CFR, etc…" but there really is no context. I would hypothesize that spying operations are starting to show who is "in the club" and who isn't, and it's quite possible this is one of the main driving factors behind business for certain people (market makers).

-

Thanks for the enjoyable thread wrabbit, I feel like I'm always arguing and this one felt more collaborative.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Are you saying you never heard of Project Echelon?
This was leaked in the 60's and was a mainstay conspiracy theory in the same category as A51, Lazaar, Crystal Skulls etc?

The old WW2 "allies" had an information sharing network as remnant of the war so I'd have thought that "allied" intercept network like Echelon implied they probably shared info??

Also in terms of the use of Embassies for spying;just about every spy scandal ever has involved the expulsion of senior diplomatic staff (with a knowing wink that their official title in fact disguises an intelligence role).

reply to post by Jukiodone


I believe I've written a thread on Echelon somewhere around here, if I'm not mistaken. lol...

It's something like the revelation of the Central Intelligence Agency using Canadian passports under the cover of Journalists many many years ago ..and getting busted at it.

It's the revelation and public display that forces other Governments to do something about it which makes 100% of the difference. In this case, this would seem to bring core things into question, such as the various treaties and conventions about diplomats and immunity, for instance. Sovereign territory and special status, to be sure. As one part of the story showed, simply spying is a National crime in some nations that host Embassies from some or all 5 countries.

So, now they have a pickle. What do you do with Diplomatic Missions that are outright criminal in nature and flying the flags of not one or even three but five different world power nations?

Echelon was rather straight forward by comparison, IMO.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The UK expelled a couple of Mossad guys from the UK on the back of the Dubai assassination; it was reported they used fake passports stolen from UK citizens, there was a short outrage, people got upset and then went to work again.

A clear crime is committed but because it's perpetrated by another nation state it cant be punished.

For spying to work at all there needs to be an element of surreptitious criminality and I think most people recognise this occurs ( if general public don't- politicians certainly do...).

If you are shocked at what Government authorise against each other (but keep secret from the taxpayer) you probably know about the work they outsource to the hundred or so fake companies in the world who are entirely staffed in key roles by former military and intelligence operatives.

Most of the stuff they do"in the name of the national interest" is so deniable the Governments that sponsoring/permits dare not even ask.

Jukiodone
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

The UK expelled a couple of Mossad guys from the UK on the back of the Dubai assassination; it was reported they used fake passports stolen from UK citizens, there was a short outrage, people got upset and then went to work again.

A clear crime is committed but because it's perpetrated by another nation state it cant be punished.

For spying to work at all there needs to be an element of surreptitious criminality and I think most people recognise this occurs ( if general public don't- politicians certainly do...).

If you are shocked at what Government authorise against each other (but keep secret from the taxpayer) you probably know about the work they outsource to the hundred or so fake companies in the world who are entirely staffed in key roles by former military and intelligence operatives.

Most of the stuff they do"in the name of the national interest" is so deniable the Governments that sponsoring/permits dare not even ask.

Excellent point. I remember the Dubai assassination and it disappeared from the radar real quick. That right there shows you how much power they have.

reply to post by Jukiodone

I agree with much of what you're saying. The dummy corps and companies are also a real interesting thing. W.L. and other sources have occasionally put out lists (loooong lists) of company and corp names that are CIA or other intelligence agency fronts. Probably not helpful with lists like that floating around, but I'm not some counter-spy looking to do harm either. It's just trivia to read in wonder when I come across one from a source that generally has solid information.

You mention past excesses in Intelligence abuses and you're right there too. There isn't much that can or is done about it. Punishment of a nation-state isn't a clear cut thing. You can't put Israel or the United States into jail. There can be punishment though....and that is what I'm starting to get a very bad feeling about, given that I live here.

The punishment is War, and I fear the world is starting to think the unthinkable. At least as that would have been in past times. I fear they may be starting to consider War as the only way to end the attitude that US and Western intelligence as a whole somehow OWN the world and everyone else just lives in it at our pleasure.

Oh, what I wouldn't give to just see our leaders knock this totality concept clear off the agenda. That is where I think lines are coming clear as having been crossed to a degree it is not easy to come back from. If it's even possible in some cases.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I've followed all your posts and threads and have come to a point to use as a gauge when it comes to a bull# meter. The only other person I follow in this respect is Phage.

I am floored that you have never heard of the Five Eyes. Or whatever they are called.

Kratos....had too much Halloween candy..

Wrabbit2000

A document from National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, published this week by German magazine Der Spiegel, describes a signals intelligence program called "Stateroom" in which U.S., British, Australian and Canadian embassies house surveillance equipment to collect electronic communications. Those countries, along with New Zealand, have an intelligence-sharing agreement known as "Five Eyes."

"Five Eyes". Hmm.. That's one I personally hadn't heard before. Interesting.... Embassies though? 4 allied nation's worth of shells to house NSA listening centers along with the legit operations of any Embassy? Oh..my..goodness. I can only think a few Governments will be irate over this.

I am also surprised that you have never heard of "Five Eyes". Basically it stems from UK/US intelligence cooperation during WW2, essentially UK/US Special Relationship, and then was expanded to encompass UK commonwealth nations such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Early documents were declassified during 2010. These are known as second party agreements. Within that Five Eyes community there will be shared and some special agreements with third party nations. For example SIGINT sharing between US and Germany, or US and Sweden, etc.

Declassification during 2010

www.nsa.gov...

The tradition of intelligence sharing between NSA and its Second party partners has deep and widespread roots that have been cultivated for almost three quarters of a century. During World War II, the U.S. Army and Navy each developed independent foreign SIGINT relationships with the British and the Dominions of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. These relations evolved and continued across the decades. The bonds, forged in the heat of a world war and tempered by decades of trust and teamwork, remain essential to future intelligence successes.

The March 5, 1946, signing of the BRUSA (now known as UKUSA) Agreement marked the reaffirmation of the vital WWII cooperation between the United Kingdom and United States. Over the next 10 years, appendices to the Agreement, some of which are included with this release to the public, were drafted and revised. These appendices and their annexures provide details of the working relationship between the two partners and also address arrangements with the other Second Parties (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand).

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk...

www.nsa.gov...

The UKUSA agreement, first called the BRUSA Agreement, was signed in March 1946 and continues to serve as the foundation for cooperation in signals intelligence between the two nations. The agreement was later extended to encompass former British Dominions: Canada (1948), Australia and New Zealand (1956). Collaboration in various areas of critical intelligence between each of the five partner-nations continues to the present day.

Ever wonder where the codenames for Russian and Chinese aeroplanes and helicopters came from? Not from NATO but from the intelligence Five Eyes community. NATO was simply on the distribution list due to the fact that three of the main partners were NATO signatories. NATO as an organisation didn't actually designate or name anything but the cover to Five Eyes was the 'NATO codenames'. It made everything simple and easy in the days when Five Eyes was never officially disclosed. ASCC (Air Standardization Coordination Committee) was assigned to codename Russian and Chinese aeroplanes and helicopters. The organisation made up of US/UK/Canada/Australia and New Zealand was re-names The Air and Space Interoperability Council (ASIC) during 2005.

www.airstandards.org...

www.designation-systems.net...

Other intelligence working groups within Five Eyes codenamed radars, missiles etc. The result was that the Five Eyes partners when sharing and collecting intelligence were all working off a standard format.

reply to post by Kratos40


Okay.. Maybe I need to clarify a bit. I haven't heard of the specific 'Code Word' program, labeled as "Five Eyes". If I saw it in a report or document totally without context for more explanation, I wouldn't have known what it was. Now, if I saw Echelon or a literal list (glances over at notebooks... -grin-) of other program names, it would key right away. (I'll have to check all my links and such to see if that did pop up in some list and I just hadn't made a mental note.. something is bugging me on that, now that we talk about it)


Now I have a new 'Code Word' designation to add to the lists. lol.... I sure hadn't meant I wasn't aware of the fact the U.S., UK and Australia have been the three legs of the Echelon triad going back to it's inception. I believe that dates at least to the mid 90's for public awareness, anyway.

Sorry if I worded that in a way that seemed like I was just discovering the topic, not specific named program. Although, it does still surprise me that the NSA would try, and other nations would allow, full blown listening stations to operate within the foreign Embassies, in friendly and hostile nation alike.

If caught ...like they just were..the fall out is SO extreme in diplomatic circles, it really does floor me that they had this much nerve, and got THIS arrogant with it. Hubris...I think would be the word, eh?

There is an interesting document from a Brigadier General on the arrest of the Canadian spy as well as information relating to Five Eyes here,

The January 2012 arrest of Canadian Sub-Lieutenant Jeffery Delisle for supplying Top Secret intelligence
to Russia reminded Canadians of Canada’s involvement in the Five Eyes intelligence community, the world’s
most exclusive intelligence sharing club that includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom
and the United States. This paper promotes further understanding of the nature and structure of the Five Eyes
intelligence community by reviewing three selected intelligence disciplines—signals intelligence (sigint), national
assessment, and defence intelligence.

The Five Eyes intelligence community grew out of twentieth-century British-American intelligence
cooperation. While not monolithic; the group is more cohesive than generally known. Rather than being centrally
choreographed, the Five Eyes group is more of a cooperative, complex network of linked autonomous intelligence
agencies, interacting with an affinity strengthened by a profound sense of confidence in each other and a degree
of professional trust so strong as to be unique in the world.
The paper suggests that, given Canadian foreign policy initiatives and evolving strategic security threats, not
only must Canada maintain credible and valuable intelligence support to its partners, the Five Eyes intelligence
community as a whole must remain integrated, effective and dominant.

www.cdfai.org...