Germany to allow 'indeterminate' gender at birth

This is quite interesting - it's for kids born with "indeterminate" genitalia - either bits of both sexes, or not enough of either I guess - apparently as many as 1 in 2000 can have the problem!!

also in het article:

German passports, which currently list the holder's sex as M for male or F for fremale [sic!], will soon have a third designation, X, for intersex holders, according to the interior ministry.

not quite sure what fremale is "lol"

but I can imagine problems for people with "X" in some places that have ...um...."traditional" (and usually religious-based) views on sex and gender!!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


When children are born in the US with undefinable genitalia, a simple DNA test will show the gender.

If they are born with two set of genitals they are fixed using DNA results of gender.

I guess Germany wants to become now controversial.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I think this is good while they are still children.. Wait to see which gender traits the child expresses and then opt for surgery..

I do see it being problematic though as adults.. Some of the reasons you brought up..

Interesting approach.. Curious to see how this will pan out..

My nephew was born without gender. His parents chose his sex and doctors
used what was available to "create" the correct genitalia.

He definitely was born without distinguishable male or female parts. As far as
I know no one counted chromosomes or checked the DNA---it was the parents
decision. And it wasn't an easy decision. Their religious beliefs made the
decision (or even the fact that a decision needed to be made) quite difficult.

Hermaphrodites exist. They should have their own sexual classification.

This page contain a good source of how Sex or Gender is Assigned when babies are born with a sexual birth defect.

In the US the classification and assignment of sex in any case of birth defect requires intensive evaluation and test.

This includes ambiguous birth defects also.

MANAGEMENT of INTERSEXUALITY or Guidelines for dealing with individuals with ambiguous genitalia from the
International birth defeats systems, Gender assignment, the information is purely medical and the site is safe to browse.

www.ibis-birthdefects.org...

reply to post by marg6043

I guess Germany wants to become now controversial.

Or perhaps they simply prefer to leave decisions on sexuality to the affected individual rather than impose them externally.

Sexual determination by 'scientific' means has led to terrible errors, traumas and ruined lives in the past (as heartbreakingly and horrifically described in Jeffrey Eugenides in Middlesex). Why perpetuate it?

'Science' also once told us that people who are attracted to members of their own sex were sick 'deviants'. Frankly, the record of science in this particular department of human history inspires no confidence whatsoever.

In Germany under Nazi rule, 'science' consigned thousands of homosexuals, hermaphrodites and other such 'deviants' to internment, torture and death. Given that history, I think the German government has acted prudently, humanely and correctly in this matter. I heartily approve.

Many enlightened countries allow people to 'change sex' — adopt the physical and behavioural traits generally displayed by members of the opposite sex. Men become 'women' by taking hormones and having themselves surgically altered. Women do the same; I have a male transsexual friend who began life as a woman. If people who are quite evidently one sex or another (transsexuals don't change their DNA) are permitted to change their self-reported sexuality, why should those who are visibly of indeterminate sex not be allowed to?

reply to post by Astyanax


The gender assignment of babies is not just like looking at the baby and thinking "hum this is a girl or this is a boy" or just tossing of a coin.

It takes more than that, test and ultrasounds to determined if internal organ match external organs.

Is more complicated than just deciding by looking at the child trying to figure out what the child gender should be.

Is been lots of trial and errors with devastating results, that is why precautions are taken, beside that having a child and leaving the child with two organs will bring more complications later on life physically and mentally.

If they are born with two set of genitals they are fixed using DNA results of gender.

My belief is they should not be FIXED till they are old enough the make that THERE own decisions.

The thing i question is doctors playing god and pressuring the parents into doing surgery instead of waiting till the child is old enough to make there own decision.

I know some one this happened to and the doctor talked the parents into assigning it sex as a boy.
(Androgen insensitivity syndrome)

The doctor was wrong.
And the person is now seen as a gay male though should have been a female in the first place.
DNA assignment does not always work.

reply to post by marg6043

Exactly!

You argue eloquently against your own position. Your post drives home my point for me: fixing sex by third-party fiat at a young age is dangerous; room should be left for doubt if there is any doubt in the matter; and in the end it should be up to the person concerned, not to others, to judge what sex they are.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Call me weird (well, I am but that's beside the point. I think) ...but when I read the stats saying as many as 1 in 2000 births present with ambiguous gender, I couldn't help wondering if the the human race was evolving towards androgyny... in a reproductive sense. As in asexual reproduction. No spouse needed.

This from a wiki:

Asexual reproduction is the primary form of reproduction for single-celled organisms such as the archaea, bacteria, and protists. Many plants and fungi reproduce asexually as well.

So couldn't help but think of agro bacteria (the gene transfer agent in the modification foodstuffs by corporations such as Monsicko.) Always wondered if rampant use of this in labs could eventually lead to a random transfer of a gene or two from a plant, to a human (who either handled or consumed said plant.) Either that, or some half-baked experiment hitch-hikes its way out of the lab. Purely speculation - just tossing it out there.

OR

Too many hormones (fed to livestock) in foods we consume effecting the developing fetus en utero?

Question: Do hormones in the expectant mother's blood even cross the placenta to the fetus?

Just thinking out loud, guys.

reply to post by Astyanax


In the US is regulations behind this birth defects, now remember that because a baby is born with two sex no always they both works the same, is also internal organs that goes with the sex, sometimes one of the sex have no use at all.

Read the link I posted is very informative of the different kinds of sexual birth problems.

a simple DNA test will show the gender

reply to post by marg6043


It's not always that simple. You can be chromosomally male and develop completely feminine characteristics and brain (androgen insensitivity). Also, whether you identify as male or female has a large amount to do with a very small portion of the brain. Any kid with malformed genitals is likely to have had an unusual exposure to hormones in utero and just assigning it a sex based on either appearance or a DNA test could be condemning it to a lifetime of misery if it's innate gender (based on brain development) is different.

Either that, or some half-baked experiment hitch-hikes its way out of the lab. Purely speculation - just tossing it out there.

reply to post by new_here


Probably not. This kind of thing was recorded in the Victorian era and very, very old medical text books.

reply to post by Antigod




Sadly like I said, most of the time one of the genital areas are none functional and serve no purpose, that is why test are done extensively to see which sex is the one that is most dominant.

I see it as common sense.