Indulgences; moral or immoral? How much for a rape Pope Francis?

Indulgences; moral or immoral? How much for a rape Pope Francis?

Martin Luther at least had the good sense to know that the church could not honestly believe that they could bargain away consequences imposed by God, ---- or bribe God’s justice, ---- with indulgences.

He recognized how completely immoral and flagrant such lies from the church were and chose to break from that immorality and outright theft.

Strange that the Catholics of today just keep buying the lies without a peep and secular governments, ---- that are supposed to care for their constituents, ---- all ignore this crime against the gullible.

Seems that Catholic morals are no better than Protestant Christians when it comes to bargaining in God’s name, --- and bribing his justice. Not to mention secular law that has abandoned their most vulnerable charges.

Shame on the R. C. C. and all Christians for allowing such a flim-flam man to lead the Catholic and Christian world.

Shame on governments for ignoring this flagrant crime.

In the days of old, I could buy my way out of a crime. Rape for instance, for a given price.

How much would I need to pay the Pope to have him bribe God’s justice today?

Now I know that the Pope would never give a price but there definitely was a price back when.

I would suggest $ 5,000.00 per rape.

Do you think that too high or too low?

Are you getting the idea I am trying to give you yet?

God’s justice for sale folks. Buy your bribes ASAP before they run out.

Send all requests and funds to the Vatican, --- in care of Satan.

Indulgences; moral or immoral?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


What exactly inspired this pious outrage? I know Pope Francis made some rather interesting changes in the Vatican worldview recently, so which one are we addressing specifically?

ETA: I knew I remembered vaguely the point you're addressing, and now I recall it fully. I understand your umbrage, but the government has no responsibility over the spiritual practices of its citizens unless they infringe on constitutional rights or local law.

Usually your threads have something interesting to talk about.
But you missed the mark this time. Sorry.

Greatest I am
Shame on governments for ignoring this flagrant crime.

An indulgence is totally SPIRITUAL and has nothing to do with the laws of a country.
If a person rapes another, then that person is still held to the laws of that country.
If that rapist was to repent he'd still have to spend time in purgatory to pay for the crime.
An indulgence is when that repentant rapist 'works off' his purgatory time.
That's the belief of their religion.
It has nothing to do with human laws.

Greatest I am
Indulgences; moral or immoral?

Indulgences don't effect anyone except the person saying the prayers or doing good works to work off their purgatory time. (their belief) Nothing negative comes from them that would effect anyone else. Therefore, they are perfectly moral

Someone saying prayers and/or doing 'good works' to gain what they believe is an indulgence isn't a bad or dangerous thing and it doesnt' hurt you at all. I'd say ... leave 'em be and go complain about those things that DO hurt others ... THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

reply to post by FlyersFan

doing 'good works' to gain what they believe is an indulgence isn't a bad or dangerous thing

I disagree. The many many Catholics I was closely associated with for 20 years all felt they could pretty much do what they wanted...sin...because they could pay it away. Also if I am not mistaken it originated as a buy with cash "indulgence" from priest by the wealthy.

Perpetuating a belief in a lie is wrong and hurtful.

reply to post by Char-Lee


That's because the spiritual authorities presiding over the common folk were (and are) just as human as the sinners they are given to bless and absolve and in some cases rebuke.

So who guards the guards? Honestly, putting humans in charge of human spirituality is as stupid as hiring felons to guard the prisons.

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
Indulgences; moral or immoral?

Indulgences don't effect anyone except the person saying the prayers or doing good works to work off their purgatory time. (their belief) Nothing negative comes from them that would effect anyone else. Therefore, they are perfectly moral

Someone saying prayers and/or doing 'good works' to gain what they believe is an indulgence isn't a bad or dangerous thing and it doesnt' hurt you at all. I'd say ... leave 'em be and go complain about those things that DO hurt others ... THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

Indulgences mean the selling of heaven for the works of man.

It cheapens christ sacrifice by saying it wasn't good enough.

It creates a system that Requires a strong church structure to administer the indulgences. (which the church has sold for cash in the past)

It makes man more dependent on a religious system than a faith.

BUt again thats just my opinion, its also part of the Reason protestants even exist.

ETA: Its the main reasons protestants follow a sola scriptura view of the faith, No traditions of man, Scripture alone tells the protestant what to do (atleast supposed to, many still fall in the trap of traditions)

Char-Lee
The many many Catholics I was closely associated with for 20 years all felt they could pretty much do what they wanted...sin...because they could pay it away..

I call B.S. on that.

I was raised Catholic. I was VERY Catholic for many decades.
Not a single Catholic person I knew thought like that.
And modern Catholics pretty much haven't got a clue what an Indulgence is anyways.

It sounds like you are regurgitating Jack Chick tracts.
You pinned the B.S. meter IMHO.

benrl
Indulgences mean the selling of heaven for the works of man.

Not exactly.

Indulgences ... it's a 'get out of purgatory early' thing .. not a 'get into heaven' thing.
It's when people believe they have to pay for their sins in purgatory before they get to heaven
so instead of sitting in purgatory, they instead say prayers and do good works to 'work off'
their purgatory time.

It's not buying Heaven. People in Purgatory are already on their way to Heaven.
It's a shortening of Purgatory belief.

And like I said ... people say prayers and do good works. So what. It hurts nothing.

And it absolutely has nothing to do with the OPs statements about different countries
letting rapists (or whatever) get away with crimes because of Indulgences.
That didn't even make any sense.

FlyersFan
Usually your threads have something interesting to talk about.
But you missed the mark this time. Sorry.

Greatest I am
Shame on governments for ignoring this flagrant crime.

An indulgence is totally SPIRITUAL and has nothing to do with the laws of a country.
If a person rapes another, then that person is still held to the laws of that country.
If that rapist was to repent he'd still have to spend time in purgatory to pay for the crime.
An indulgence is when that repentant rapist 'works off' his purgatory time.
That's the belief of their religion.
It has nothing to do with human laws.

If the indulgences (interesting word) do not include filthy lucre, it's same old, same old...but, if it does...it would seem to fall into a category of snake oil selling, and at the very least, commensurate with the gambling issue...

Å99

FlyersFan

benrl
Indulgences mean the selling of heaven for the works of man.

Not exactly.

Indulgences ... it's a 'get out of purgatory early' thing .. not a 'get into heaven' thing.
It's when people believe they have to pay for their sins in purgatory before they get to heaven
so instead of sitting in purgatory, they instead say prayers and do good works to 'work off'
their purgatory time.

It's not buying Heaven. People in Purgatory are already on their way to Heaven.
It's a shortening of Purgatory belief.

And like I said ... people say prayers and do good works. So what. It hurts nothing.

And it absolutely has nothing to do with the OPs statements about different countries
letting rapists (or whatever) get away with crimes because of Indulgences.
That didn't even make any sense.

Semantics, to-mato tomato,

Its implying the efforts of man mean something to God.

Its saying mans direct efforts made on their own have merit in Gods eyes toward some balance sheet of salvation and penance.

Penance is not what God wants, it is service freely given.

A minor difference that maters more than anything else.

reply to post by Char-Lee

I disagree. The many many Catholics I was closely associated with for 20 years all felt they could pretty much do what they wanted...sin...because they could pay it away.

That actually sounds more like a Protestant perspective, particularly among the "once saved, always saved" crowd. A Catholic who commits a mortal sin needs to go to confession and be absolved of it, and if they die without having done that, their belief is that they go to Hell, period. No indulgences are going to change that.

Catholics believe that there are Christians in Hell, Protestants believe that there cannot be Christians in Hell.

reply to post by benrl

Its implying the efforts of man mean something to God.

Yes, that's what Catholics believe. "Total Depravity" is unique to Reformed Theology, everyone else believes that God takes kindly (in some fashion) to the good acts of his children. The Catholic belief in Purgatory (which goes back, before Christ, to a Jewish belief) is that the length of time that a person needs to be purified (purged) varies according to how they lived their lives -- Saints probably go straight to Heaven, people like me need some sprucing up before we're ready to be with God. So indulgences are acts that we do that makes us a bit more pious, a bit closer to that "Saint Standard", and less time in Purgatory.

Indulgences have nothing to do with salvation, which is the gift of God's grace, we all agree on that.

benrl
Semantics, to-mato tomato,

No. It's exactly what I said. Indulgences don't win heaven for a person going to hell.
People in purgatory are already going to heaven. They just have some purgatory time
to fulfill first. Indulgences don't 'buy heaven'.

Its implying the efforts of man mean something to God.

OF COURSE they mean something positive to God. People are doing good things to please Him to try to help makeup for whatever sin they did. Common sense says that would be pleasing to God. Example - just as if a child, who knows that his father loves him and forgives him for doing something wrong, would please his father by mowing the lawn or washing the windows ... it's a sign that the child loves the father and wants to please him. That pleases an earthly father so it would also please a heavenly one.

Its saying mans direct efforts made on their own have merit in Gods eyes toward some balance sheet of salvation and penance.

No. Penance has nothing to do with salvation. I already told you that. It has to do with showing that a person is really sorry for their sins and that they want to make amends. They know they are already forgiven but they want to do something for God to make up for their errors. It should be pleasing to God.

Penance is not what God wants, it is service freely given.

I"m not so sure that is true. He wants service freely given ... but doing penance to show that a person is really repentant and that they want to please God has to be something that God would like. How could He not?

Indulgences fall into the guilt/absolution schema. Confession is another one. Supplicating prayer is another.
You have no need for absolution if you feel no guilt. Religios worldview tells you from the very outset (a wholly flawed concept) that you are born into sin.
Sin-repentance-absolution provides the arena for the game to occur.
Religios love playing this game because it gives them an 'out' - temporarily...snakes and ladders...

Being good, through this system, has lost its purpose...athiest has legitimate grounds to ridicule such a circular system of self-referential, real-life snakes and ladders...and religios that need to 'belong' (ie: teenage angst phase) are welcome to play that childish game...

Indulge me...

Å99

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

What exactly inspired this pious outrage? I know Pope Francis made some rather interesting changes in the Vatican worldview recently, so which one are we addressing specifically?

ETA: I knew I remembered vaguely the point you're addressing, and now I recall it fully. I understand your umbrage, but the government has no responsibility over the spiritual practices of its citizens unless they infringe on constitutional rights or local law.

edit on 30-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

This is hardly a spiritual issue.
It is an issue of a major religion using outright lies and a scam based on lies to enrich that religion.
It is a legal issue.

Regards
DL

FlyersFan
Usually your threads have something interesting to talk about.
But you missed the mark this time. Sorry.

Greatest I am
Shame on governments for ignoring this flagrant crime.

An indulgence is totally SPIRITUAL and has nothing to do with the laws of a country.
If a person rapes another, then that person is still held to the laws of that country.
If that rapist was to repent he'd still have to spend time in purgatory to pay for the crime.
An indulgence is when that repentant rapist 'works off' his purgatory time.
That's the belief of their religion.
It has nothing to do with human laws.

Correct but institutions lying to citizens for cash or other indulgences is a scam and we have laws against those.
It is only because it is a religion doing it that we let it go.

Nice morals from the rest of us eh?

Regards
DL

FlyersFan

Greatest I am
Indulgences; moral or immoral?

Indulgences don't effect anyone except the person saying the prayers or doing good works to work off their purgatory time. (their belief) Nothing negative comes from them that would effect anyone else. Therefore, they are perfectly moral

Someone saying prayers and/or doing 'good works' to gain what they believe is an indulgence isn't a bad or dangerous thing and it doesnt' hurt you at all. I'd say ... leave 'em be and go complain about those things that DO hurt others ... THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

Yep. Lying and deceiving people holds no harm for them.

Good moral position that. Not.

Regards
DL

Char-Lee
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

doing 'good works' to gain what they believe is an indulgence isn't a bad or dangerous thing

I disagree. The many many Catholics I was closely associated with for 20 years all felt they could pretty much do what they wanted...sin...because they could pay it away. Also if I am not mistaken it originated as a buy with cash "indulgence" from priest by the wealthy.

Perpetuating a belief in a lie is wrong and hurtful.

Exactly.

Regards
DL

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Char-Lee

 

That's because the spiritual authorities presiding over the common folk were (and are) just as human as the sinners they are given to bless and absolve and in some cases rebuke.

So who guards the guards? Honestly, putting humans in charge of human spirituality is as stupid as hiring felons to guard the prisons.

What is better?

That or putting an absentee invisible super God in charge?

Regards
DL