Faking the Holocaust. How it could be done.

Ok, used to chat here all the time, but stopped a year or two ago.
I was browsing the net on an interesting subject, that is, interesting if you KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN TO IT.

I found a post here on yahoo, under 'chit-chat' section, which I could not find. So I'm starting this one instead.

Most of the time even suggesting that the Holocaust did not happen would get you shunned by everyone around you. Forget all that hate for 5 minutes, ok?

Yes, millions of PEOPLE were killed by the Nazi's. Not just jews. The Gypsies got it just as bad. The blacks, gays, the mentally handicapped, and pretty much anyone that got in their way or was different got slaughtered.

6 million Jews were killed, right? Or somewhere there abouts.

Now I put this to you...

There are many, many jewish familys, neighbourhoods, sinagogs (sorry for the spelling) all around the world, right?

Hypothetical question... : What would you do if you knew an army of pissed off faschists were about to march into your town? You know that you will probably die and that your wife and daughter will be raped.
You run. Long and hard.

I've often heard the theory that the Jews were not massacared but indeed emmigrated to many different parts of the world.

Obviously there is no way they could actually locate and count ALL 6 million bodies. It is a ballpark figured of how many jews DISAPPEARED during the war.

Yes, probably a million jews were killed. But then again, millions of blacks, muslims, islamics, etc were killed as well.


If you ask me, the "Holocaust" was not an affront to the Jewish people, but an affront to the variety of cultures that the human race has cultivated over it's entire history.

This post is not to anger you, it's not an attack on Jewish people.
It's merely to point out a historical flaw that should be corrected or firmly proven. Like it or not, there is no way to actually prove if 6 million jewish people were murdered. It is a claim.
The holocaust was inflicted upon humanity, not just one part of it.

Thanx and please don't flame. Discussion I like. Flaming I ignore.


James.

We are almost the inventors of buerocracy. Every person arrested and killed was written down and filed.
There is no plausible way to fake the holocaust. The exact numbers are unknown but the error margins are very small.

CanuckoftheShadows,

Obviously there is no way they could actually locate and count ALL 6 million bodies. It is a ballpark figured of how many jews DISAPPEARED during the war.

Really? Just a "ball-park" figure? Don't be so sure.
I would humbly suggest that an extensive look at this site will reveal multitudes, and I mean multitudes, of links to source documentations, etc.
INTRODUCTORY GUIDE TO HOLOCAUST INFORMATION


Have a good one and hope the link above will answer any and all questions and assertions you might have.


seekerof

[edit on 16-11-2004 by Seekerof]

I'm not saying it was fake. I'm saying that the numbers are probably off and a broader look on the holocaust should be taken.


(Thank you for the link, I'll be sure to read)

[edit on 16-11-2004 by CanuckoftheShadows]

Like it or not, there is no way to actually prove if 6 million jewish people were murdered. It is a claim.

That's the point.

Do you think crematoria were employed by the Germans so they could warm the German climate a few degrees? One of the points was to destroy evidence. When the German regime was finally convinced that they were going to be defeated they began destroying evidence at many of the camps. Why? To clear out the space for an upcoming theme park? How about to cover up the mass murder that took place there. No one says it was ONLY jews that were killed there. What is fact however is that more Jews were killed there than members of other groups. If you're THAT interested in this, I suggest going to visit with Holocaust survivors (easy to spot with numbers tattooed on their arms) and chatting with them about the family members they saw get killed. I have a whole bunch of survivors I can connect you with if you're ever in the New York area in fact. It would be my pleasure to assist you in your apparent quest to find the truth.

Sometimes we need to accept that just because we personally have not seen physical evidence of something doesn't mean it did not happen. What do you want anyways? Their bodies? Videotapes of slaughterings?

Dude, relax.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. I am not speaking out against the jewish community. I am well aware of the atrocities committed during WWII and as such do not need you patronizing me. Ever read up on Mengele?
I was trying to open up a discussion, but instead I find myself remembering WHY I stopped coming here.

There is no such thing as impartial discussion on this website. You say something, one person takes it the right way, the next gets mad about it. Such is life I guess.

Mods or Admin, take this thread down before the hardcore flammers sink their teeth into it.

Thanx for your replies, I'm not posting in this thread again.

(Edit - Changed "every" to "ever" in "Every read up on Mengele?")

[edit on 16-11-2004 by CanuckoftheShadows]

You complained about there not being enough evidence, I addressed that with my opinion of why there's not enough evidence. If you considered my offer for you to have conversations with eyewitnesses as patronizing that's your problem. I made the mistake of portraying you as someone interested in learning more about the topic, and talking to eyewitnesses, in my extensive experience, is a wonderful way of becoming more familiar with topics. But hey, to each their own. If you'd rather be ultra defensive, closed minded and paranoid that people are attacking you, more power to you. Catch you in a few years next time you come back.

Damn, try to help out...

[edit on 11-16-2004 by Djarums]

How DARE you?! You anti-sem...nah, just kidding. Had ya going there for a sec though, didn't I?

Well, you're brave, I'll give you that much. Fighting through the urge to say "I'm not touching that with a 20' pole", I will say I understand your theory, and I know you're not stating the holocaust didn't happen, just that maybe many of those who fled were mistakenly counted as killed in camps.

I'm far from an expert on this matter, but I guess you'd have to look into how the figures were/are calculated. Was it simply pre-holocaust Jews minus post-holocaust Jews equals killed Jews? I doubt it. Did the Germans keep records of Jews killed in concentration camps? Who is publishing these figures? This would require no small amount of research to find out how they calculate it. (Just saw seekerof's post while writing this. Might want to check that out.)

Secondly you'd have to look at immigration during the time. Many Jews concealed their identities and changed their names to escape. Would their records be on the files of governments of the countries they fled to? Would they be recognizable as Jews? How many fled across borders without going through customs?

I'd be interested to see how they arrive at the publicized figures, out of just that: pure interest. However, that being said, it's really a moot point unless you had some point to make by discovering that 5 million Jews were killed in concentration camps as opposed to 6 million. Unless you can claim that it was only a few thousand, there's no reason to waste your time. And even then, a few thousand people were killed in 9/11, and now look what's happened to the world.

Secondly you'd have to look at immigration during the time. Many Jews concealed their identities and changed their names to escape. Would their records be on the files of governments of the countries they fled to? Would they be recognizable as Jews? How many fled across borders without going through customs?

Two survivors I've spoken to while doing a lengthy report on this topic told me stories about being randomly reunited with friends who they thought were dead. Amazing stories, but of course it did bring up curiousity as to how often that happened. Desperate times called for desperate measures and I'm sure people wound up in a lot of different places.

As for the comments on number, as you said if the number is 5,493,203 or 6,000,000 or whatever really isn't that relevant and wouldn't (in my mind) take away from what happened.

About fleeing across borders, there are numerous accounts (including movies) of people cramming into boats and being refused entry into numerous destinations including the United States. Wasn't exactly an easy escape route, no one wanted them.

Whether it was 600 or 6 million, it wouldn't change the atrocity....

I'd strongly recommend finding a holocaust survivor (while you can) and have a talk with them. I did not too long ago (a few years ago), and it is probably some of the best time I ever spent in my life. I can't even type this without tearing up a bit...thinking about it.....

Discussion! Thank the gods! =D

"Two survivors I've spoken to while doing a lengthy report on this topic told me stories about being randomly reunited with friends who they thought were dead. Amazing stories, but of course it did bring up curiousity as to how often that happened. Desperate times called for desperate measures and I'm sure people wound up in a lot of different places. "

That's my point! =D
I'm just trying to say that MAYBE, just MAYBE tons of those people made it out in time!

And the figures, you are right.
1 million or 6 million, it doesn't matter. Atrocity either way.

I just think a broader look on the holocaust would benefit ALL of mankind.

I've actually heard people say "The holocaust and WWII should be forgotten."
It truly sickened me. When I hear a person say this I quickly inform them that if it is forgotten, it will most likely happen again.
Ya know? Oldest crimes, newest ways?

The holocaust was an atrocity committed against the Human Race, not just the Jewish people.

OK, now we're getting to the crux of your post. You admit that the arguing over figures is moot, and then you go on to sum up:

I just think a broader look on the holocaust would benefit ALL of mankind.

How exactly? It's not a broader outlook, it's just arguing over an inconsequential difference in figures.

The holocaust was an atrocity committed against the Human Race, not just the Jewish people.

And now we come to what you're really trying to say. You are annoyed by the fact that the Jewish community seems to claim the holocaust as their own. Well, if you go and talk to some holocaust survivors, you might find that they have a story or two to tell about some gays or blacks in the camps too. Yes, it was an atrocity against many peoples, and a stain on human history, but that doesn't change the fact that the Jewish people have a legitimate claim to empathy. Don't be jealous. There's an even bigger holocaust coming, and we'll ALL have a starring role.

Too my knowledge a decision was taken a while back that Holocaust Denial is not a topic that we would like to discuss here on ATS. There is ample proof that the Holocaust happened including the testimony of troops who liberated the camps and returned home.Photographs, film, and documentation detail the planning and inception of the "Final Solution".

With so much proof there can be only two motives for arguing that it was fake, the first is sheer ignorance, the second is anti-semitism. Anyone motivated by either should look for discussion elsewhere.

Thread closed.



[edit on 16-11-2004 by John bull 1]