You cant say that, there are no unvoluntary sins

But you cant say that homosexuality is evil ! Sometimes friendship go farrer than only an intellectual friendship and become a physical desire... It happen to peoples of every age and every sex. Helen, I'm sure you are a good christian but have you never had desire for a person, a very good friend or a member of your family ?

There I dont talk you about a lifestyle but about a natural attraction. It's true that lifestyle, in our competition society allways try to take performances, even sexually and it's sad because it destroy relationship. It's true that in this world, in this great babylone, "gay lifestyle" is abused, it's another placebo of our will to ensure our soul desire, like many other freaky lifestyle.

I'm not a saint, and I cant be so, many of peoples in the world are not saint and if they was so, they wouldn't live on earth but in the heaven . And i still thinking that the New Age Society will be more compreansive about these desire and that homosexuality has a future.

I will repeat what I've told you before but homosexuality can be a solution for many problems of the world. >But you need to have an open mind to understand what I mean, not to be closed or restrictive to new ideas and new age concepts.

Good point. But for arguments sake many gay persons have ended up in heterosexual marraiges, due to many reasons- cultural, religious. But the Marraige does not remove the attraction that those persons have for others of their own sex. These often end up being very bad relationships.

The inclination of homosexuality is not a choice. T.V does not make Homo's. If you are a homosexual you are born that way and no amount of treapy and programming is going to change that.
As demonstrated by Pauls continuous torment. It could be likened to the Homosexuals that try to hide in the Catholic holy orders.

Please note I'm not saying that Paul ever engaged in a Homosexual act. It is my beleif that he never did.

In admitting this that the argument could be put forward that Homosexual's alike should restrain from such acts as Paul did.

What's wrong with being gay? Ask me a good way to cut down on over population and teen pregnancy. Think about, if for five years everyone went gay or lesbian, no kids for five years. Know what kind of impact that would have? Of course, some places you don't have a choice.

Like china, they kill all the women off, all they have is males. They are commiting genocide on themselves. All men, so how they get their rocks off?

Anyways, it is a person's choice, not yours!!! How dare you think you can tell someone what they can or can't do with their personal life! I don't go to your house and tell you that you can't watch t.v. now, it bad then tell you not to read the newspaper cause it is bad. No, your personal life is yours, don't try to control others.

Of course, no christian would have any idea of individuality. All sheep lead in a flock, mindless robots doing what they are told. Why not think about these things? Also, a pagan raises the dead, evil. Jesus raises Lazur whatever(can't spell it) and he a good person. Heck, he raises from the dead. He a zombie!!! But a christian will never see it for conforming is imprinted on them.

The words of Mr.Snaffelburger-Conform, consume, obey!

Is it genetics or a choice?

I have already posted that the evidence points to it being genetic in nature. I think those who tend to argue against such evidence are in the same vein as those who argue against the mountain of evidence for evolution and like to proclaim that all evidence for evolution is fiction (I really like the creationists who claim that radiometric dating is physically impossible).

But, is it a choice? Well, last time I checked, this was (at least for now, supposed to be at least) a free world, and people, being informed on thier options, had the right to make whatever choice they liked without too much static from anyone else.

Why go homosexual when there is ''ABORTION'' there's plenty of people that consider it ''JUST'' to kill an unborn human life!!!

And YES it is a choice! Free will

But does an unborn baby have that free will that choice put to him/her???
NO

You as an individual have that choice........as an adult , have a choice!!!


I dont follow any flock ,mindless robot, or sheep or whatever WORD you put it!!!
I try to be good, although i am not always good, i try to see my fault and do something about it........

And what is wrong with Abstaining from sex???........if you want to cut down on having children...
Christianity has many days on which are Holy days and one abstains from sex...........think what you want.......and do what you want.
It is a free choice to do as ''you will'' ...............
Am I forcing any one to listen to me???
Am I asking people to take my word over theirs???

The post was » Homosexuality and the Bible » and that was what i posted about........
I have my opinions.....as do others on this forum........
.............so if someone disagrees or whatever, it is their choice to do so............

Nans, so your saying........because of the scars''that one was left through childhood, those scars remain imbedded in the mind forever???
you say that one cannot see through the pain to help oneself ???
Your saying that if one is bashed........then one knows that bashing someone else is what they will do???

Again, it is a choice one makes to suit themselves....
Yes childhood trauma does have certain memories embedded in ones mind..........but they can be helped through ...........it is a matter of one wanting to be helped.......it is ones choice to be what they want to be.......
If one cannot seek help, then one cannot be helped!!!

I disagree that spiritual life comes second........to sexual fullfillement.....
Yes society may have 'programmed us ' with sex this, sex that , sex whatever , but one has their own mind to make up their mind if they wish to follow such masses......
Sins involutary are..........
speaking a harsh word(upset with someone, giving someone a angry look )
Saying a bad word about someone (Gossip) without thinking of the consequences , and therefore causing someone grief(feel sad)
Manslaughter........murder,but not realy intending to do so......you still get punishment for all these .....involuntary acts commited by mans law........as is the same of God's law........

All our life we're controlled by the chemistry of our bodies. When you feel something touches you, the message was brought to the brain by electricity, and the feeling you get is made of chemical agents released by an involuntary mechanism in the brain. When a beautiful woman passes me, the good feeling I get is based on chemicals. Now let's say that I was different. That I fell in love with guys not girls. I would have been controlled by the same chemistry, but other things would have triggered the mechanisms in my brain. It's not true to say that homosexuality is only a gene thing and it's not entirely true when you say that all gays are "taught" to be gays by society and social factors in the upbringing. The truth lies somewhere between. Some people are genetically disposed to be gay, there should be no doubt about that, but this person doesn't need to become gay, it's only more likely.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

.

Well he knew what was going on because his servants had cried all night and day about their sins. But as a rightious person, he couldn't judge unless he had somehow verified the believers' testimonies. God can't have total control over us all the time, we humans have been given a certain freedom, we're supposed to regulate society ourselves, through the wisdom and knowledge, the laws and principles God has provided us with. When God looks down something horrible normally happens, because our sins are so grave and our god pedigree is defiled with carnal sin. Take the story of Cain, the Flood, Babylon, Sodom, Egypt etc. When God reacts to our cries, he goes down to us and looks for himself. Normally he gets really angry and destroys the whole thing. God senses these things, but since he's not an animal, he doesn't act on instinct. He has to know. He always demands a second opinion, that's why he always sends two, never one (Gabriel and Michael in Daniel, John and Jesus in the Gospel).

Blessings,
Mikrom

[Edited on 29-5-2003 by mikromarius]

And I found this paragraph I would like to share with you, that I feel explains everything to the Christians, priests and laymen who don't give a dime for Kosher pactice, Saturday worship and Passover celebration, but use the same law to accuse innocent people of sin. It's a good article every priest should read. How I wish we could come back to God and be reunited with him in rightiousness. The Law of Moses is first and foremost a set of anti-Ba'al laws and rules. A reform seeking to eliminate the Ba'al practice among the Israelites. They (Ba'al woshippers) used sex as a tool to control people, just like most psychopaths and rapists today. Through physical and psychological humiliation, the Ba'al priests and their rulers controlled society. And there came Moses to set us free from this madness. It was nessasary to condemn their godless ways, therefore parts of the bible can be read as an anti Ba'al law.

Quote:
"Second, one wonders why several other Torah rules have been generally ignored while this one is elevated to the status of "the word of God." The Torah prescribes a kosher diet which fundamentalists today ignore. The Torah says that a person cannot make a garment of two different kinds of fabric. It says that those who worship a false god should be executed and so should those children who are disobedient and who talk back to their parents! It orders people to observe the Sabbath by refraining from all activity save worship on Saturday. It assumes that slavery is a legitimate social institution, while defining women as the property of men. A book containing this kind of dubious ethical teaching hardly seems to be a competent authority to be used to make moral judgements about homosexuality."

Quote from Bishop John Shelby Spong's article with the same name as this thread on www.theposition.com...

Blessings,
Mikromarius

PS: I wonder: why on earth have they used secure html on that page?

This is all the Bible contradiction :
The first command is " Thou shall not kill "
The second one is " Thou shall kill those who wont follow the first command "

Can I ask you a few questions???

I would like your opinions on these next inquiries.

Would you agree that habitat and external influences play a role in charcter development???

And finally, in your opinion is being gay bad or wrong in some way???


Any answer you can provide will be helpful. Thanks.



Abe

The same contradiction you'll find in any law with a death penalty.

To me the contradiction is this: The Bible says: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times" (Psalms 12:6/7).

If the words of the Lord are such pure words, then why have the Catholic Church and her daughters changed most of them? The Pope and his men, the RC Church and her daughters have tried to attach oranges and bananas on a fig tree through letting their politics and theology shine through in their "translations" of the words of God. For instance, God never said in the bible that Lucifer fell. But he said that the king (read: the morningstar) of Babylon fell. It was probably important for King James et co to show that Rome was mystery Babylon, but forgery isn't the way of the Lord. He has already showed us that Rome is Babylon in Revelation. Wonder what happens next time around: Perhaps Judas will be called Adolf and Mother Mary will be Isis? When wise men from India see how the Christians treat their holy scriptures, they shake their heads, for the Bible we have today is contrary to, yes, a different book than the original books.

If they choose not to be Kosher, not to observe Saturday as Sabbath, if they don't celebrate Passover or none of the other celebrations of the Lord according to the Law, they can shut up their inquisitorical dragon mouths towards gays. They don't know the Law, but they use it to judge the weak and unfortunate when their other arguments fall dead. Hipocricy!

Blessings,
Mikromarius

...priest and monk sexually abuses of young men ?

In France, these last years, there are a dozens of affair of this kind, including "christian church manager" (Catholic ones, every time). And I've heard about some scandals of this type in the USA church institution also.

I alway keep these Bible words in mind, probably the most important Bible message :

In front of GOD, the righteous wont be judge guilty and the wicked innocent...

I believe it's because their folly about Catholic priests and other clerics can not marry. It's a continuance of an unhealthy and ungodly doctrine.



An other passage is just as important: Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Some things just do not sound wholesome in act and deed. Topic.
We are supposed to hate sin and not hate the person, this includes ourselves when we sin and anyone is subject to temptation.

One can turn the bible into a consppiracy or delve into the intracacies and find coincidence, seeming contradiction and horrors that confound and ultimately give pause to the reader as to it's validity. I suppose this goes back to helen's old Q.- What if you are wrong at the end? What reality/ absolute will you settle on?

I believe the Bible to be very confusing over the issue of homosexuality. It contradicts itself time and time again.

I guess one Biblical view could be that homosexuality was frowned upon because at the time, the population of Christians on the Earth was very small. The whole book is about the growth of man. Homosexuality doesn't yield that growth.

My personal view is - whatever makes them happy.

[Edited on 22-6-2003 by Leveller]

Do we actually have any gay people to explain what it feels like?

Abraham......Sorry for not getting right back to you....I must have missed on this thread.....
Well to answer your first question put to me.....quote///
Would you agree that habitat and external influences play a role in charcter development???
Yes definately.......
It is a part of our lives and our growing enviroment......you do as you see...you tend to say what you hear!
But.......as we grow up and get older.......we have our own mind and intellect to use it wisely.......
Let's say our parents are strict on how they bring us up.....you see that as being good and therefore you try to 'copy'' that ........but only to a certain extent....as you see fit to do so.....
My dad was pretty strict in whom my friends were and whom I talked to.....was not allowed to go out......was not allowed to wear makeup....was pretty suspicious of all things!(It may seem harsh but I beleive that it was for the best of me.....only to a certain degree)
It is ok to be brought up with certain good morals......but as an individual you learn what is right or wrong in life by the way you perceive life.......
Who your friends are and whom you hang out with plays much of a big role of how you tend to look at life....
Again to a certain degree you are influenced by your surroundings......but in the end you are the only person whom has the last say in what you perceive things to be......There is influence all around us.....Tv,movies,nightclubs,School,music(especially music),media ........
everywhere we go it is all around us.....not letting us think for ourselves .....a form of 'brainwashing' techniques is used to tell us what we see and hear is right for us......and many have fallen for it!
For your next question......quote//And finally, in your opinion is being gay bad or wrong in some way???
In my opinion ...
Sin is a falling away from God...
God made man and woman.......and they fell away from God's first commandment,because they chose to please their eyes(the fruit looked pleasing to the eye)and saw that there could be no harm in eating of the fruit.....it caused them to fall away from God.......
Being gay is similar to any sin that involves pleasing the body then pleasing God(it benefits only yourself and it has no benefit apart from pleasure of ones body) ........it is pleasing ones own pleasure of the body.....it satisfies ones own lust ....only the body gets pleasure and not the ''soul'' .....whether one is gay or one is having 'sex' outside of marriage it is considered a sin......But it can be helped if one thinks with their 'soul' and not their body .......
So Yes......it is wrong because you chose to please how you feel ...and not what is pleasing to God.....
eg.....
In the Orthodox Church, you can go to church and be 'gay' but if you want to remain part of the Apostles teachings and what was handed down to them from the teachings of Jesus Christ.....you have to take all as being divine inspiration from what God taught as being ''correct'' and 'truth'' for the benefit of our ''souls'' and not pleasing the body.....
In order for forgiveness of ones 'sin'you have to admit that you are trying to better yourself through abstaining from certain things that keep you being with God....
People can tell me that I'm wrong with certain things,but if ''I'' dont see it...then I cannot possibbly help myself.......I have to of my own accord make that desicion on my own......
Just because someone is gay does not give me the right to tell them it is wrong......it is up to them to fully understand why it is wrong....
It also does not give me the right to 'hate' them or to disregard them......how can I tell them of their sin if I have my own to deal with......
If I am asked of what my opinion is of being ''gay'' it is the same as to what I would say to someone with another 'sin' .......it is wrong because it does not benefit the 'soul'' it only gives pleasure to the body.....
And most 'sin' does come from seeking and pleasing one's own need and has no true meaning ....but a pleasure in itself.
Sorry for the long answer...
helen..

helen (or anyone) -

What about a person who is gay but abstains from sex?

Or do you not think that's possible?

or in other words

is a person gay only after homosexual acts?

or are they simply and always gay?