The Universe

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite
This world is created by thought. Besides, there isn't a text book on this planet that can explain what happens at the "hypothetical" edge of the universe - if there is one. There is a lot more to this existence than you or I can ever know.

I just laid my hand on a large tree right next to the Nathan Hale homestead and I was overcome with sadness. This man cried like a baby, once I made it to the car........There is a lot to "think" about on this plane of existence, please don't discourage it.

onequestion
I have been contemplating the idea of the universe existing through forms. Rather then the universe ending or the idea of a multiverse i have come to the conclusion that the universe exist with in forms. Ok..

At the edge of the universe rather then it ending i have realized that it changes form. That this universe is a manifestation of form through the idea of the dimensions existing within the form of the outer reaches of the universe.

But there really isnt an outer edge or reach, its experience. It manifest itself through all forms throughout space dimensionally, or non dimensionally.

Im still grappling with this idea but this is where im starting at with it at least as how i can explain it.

Enjoy.

Leonard Susskind's work with Black Holes presents that at the edge of the Universe, everything inside the Universe is represented two dimensionally.

The more popular theory amongst conservatives scientist is that the Universe is "flat". The problem with that theory is that the Universe could be curved outside our range to comprehend with technology and math today. The same applies to Randomness. The Universe could very well be a non-random event but it is outside our range scientifically to comprehend that.

The idea of a Heaven just outside the Universe has substantive history. A good example of that is in relation to modeling related to Copernicus

In perspective your construct is similar to expressions related to the Tao.

Any thoughts?

Well, we have our Universe surrounded by several other universes at its border. We could be inside a bigger universe, we could be inside and at the border of two seperate universes. We could be surrounded in all the main directions (left, up etc) by six other universes. We could be a bigger universe surrounded by tens or hundreds of other smaller universes... and so on.

Well I say we are just that 'surrounded' by other universes except, by my beliefs, these other universes are modularised and packed within the boundaries of this universe; hiding inside atoms, electrons and photons providing the obviously required, high intelligence of this Universe. So as they say, instead of going elsewhere to look for experiences- look inside or at home.

reply to post by Klimhazard


Consider the potential of the human race from the perspective beyond our ability to perceive reality as we commonly understand. What we experience in relation to the common senses result only in internal representations.

What we see, hear, smell, feel and taste is all in our heads.

Granted it is a close approximation, enough that we have reached this level of technology. But to be clear when we looks at a tree, one only see's what our senses can offer in relation to everything about that tree.

The same applies to looking at a person.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Broom

What is curious is that the further it moves outwards the faster the material in the universe is traveling defying the laws of known physics, such as gravity, which should be pulling on the universe and slowing it down.

Could you please explain exactly which laws of physics are being broken, and how?

Our universe takes up just a fraction of the heavens it resides in.

What are 'the heavens' and why do you believe they exist?

The universe is spheroid in shape, perhaps not a perfect sphere.

What evidence do you have that the Universe is a sphere or spheroid?

There is an inner dimension upon which our universe sits.

How does one sit on a dimension? Could you please explain more clearly?

Super massive black holes, after converting whatever mass and even light that falls pass their event horizon and converts them to pure energy take that energy into the pedestal on which the universe sits which we cannot see, and it is eventually recycled back into the universe.

Do you have evidence for the existence of this 'pedestal'?

The heavenly realm has nothing physical, nor does it have energy as we understand it. It has supernatural energy, dynamic energy from which the energy in our universe, and the matter contained within come from.

If this 'heavenly realm has nothing physical', then

1. How do you know it exists?
   
   
2. Where is the physical Universe located?

One final question: since all of the above statements are highly questionable, why should we give any credence whatsoever to the claims made in the second half of your post?

I notice you have a tendency to vanish from these forums when someone asks you pertinent questions, like the ones above. Show us a feather of a different colour this time, please, and provide some answers.

edit on 31/10/13 by Astyanax because: (no reason given)

Astyanax


What are 'the heavens' and why do you believe they exist?

There are different heavens. One may refer to the atmosphere that encompasses the earth, our sky. There is also the heavens that is the universe, or everything that we can see, or know about in our physical realm of existence. There is also a spirit realm which the Bible refers to as heavens. This is the heavens that is being referred to as encompassing the others.

As for the shape of the universe, this is speculated by observation of objects and structures within the universe. Just as an artist has a uniqueness in their work that gives away who they are, there is no doubt that the Great Artist has left a similar mark on the physical universe he created. It is true that the universe may be more rectangular, but it definitely has a shape.

...since all of the above statements are highly questionable, why should we give any credence whatsoever to the claims made in the second half of your post?

You or anyone who doesn't wish to does not have to, and there is no reason to try and reason with those who don't want to reason. When the broom does not answer someone it may be because he did not see the question, or merely because that person is not worthy of a reply just as it was wisely counseled may ages ago in a certain work: "Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights." -2 Timothy 2:23.

How does one sit on a dimension? Could you please explain more clearly?

The universe that we know to exist (can see with our eye) is everything that we see. A dimension is a line of reference, a point as it were. By means of a dimension we can determine how things in the visible universe relate to each other in terms of appearance, speed, distance, sound, texture, and other aspects. The term "sit" perhaps does not do this inner dimension that exists justice. It was a term used to help the reader understand the concept. Much as God does not have eyes or ears as we understand them, or just as the sun does not literally rise or set, it is the earth that is actually turning on its axis.

Some of the questions you asked above were already answered, instead of repeating, you may wish to go back and re-read.

I notice you have a tendency to vanish from these forums when someone asks you pertinent questions, like the ones above. Show us a feather of a different colour this time, please, and provide some answers.

edit on 31/10/13 by Astyanax because: (no reason given)

That is curious, because just in this thread the broom had quite a nice conversation with someone about black holes, and answered question after question. And in other threads, whenever he sees a question that is honest he will try and respond.

Yet you are allowed to believe as you wish. Hopefully this slander about a broom is done out of ignorance. Now he has turned down foolish and ignorant questioning. But that is because he knows they produce fights.
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Here are some pertinent scriptures referring to some of the answers given about the heavens beyond ours. Now to answer your question about how do we know what is beyond it? There is no way a human can see it or know of ourselves for we cannot see it. The only way to know is if someone from that realm gave us information about it. Which has been done:

"And who could retain power to build him a house? For the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him..."2 Chronicles 2:6.

"The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples." Acts 17:24.

"And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” Exodus 33:20.

"He made the heavens bend as he descended, and thick gloom was beneath his feet." -Psalm 18:9.



"your [established place] of dwelling" 2Chronicles 6:39

"In the [house] of my father there are [many abodes], ...[a place]" John 14:2

"receive you [home]" John 14:3

"God is [light] and there is [no darkness at all] in union with him" 1John 1:5

"(Jesus) who dwells in [unapproachable light], whom not one of men has seen or can see." 1Timothy 6:16

"light beyond the brilliance of the sun" Acts 26:12

"a [holy (clean, pure) place]...into heaven itself" Hebrews 9:24

"a [city] of the living God...and myriads of angels." Hebrews 12:22

"I (God) will keep undisturbed and look upon my established place, [like the dazzling heat along with the light], like the cloud of dew in the heat of harvest." Isaiah 18:4

"Pretty for loftiness" Psalms 48:2

"heaven...your lofty abode of holiness and beauty" Isaiah 63:15

"a pillar in the [temple] of my God" Revelation 3:12

"an opened [door] in heaven" Revelation 4:1

"a [throne] was in its position in heaven, and there was one seated upon the throne." Revelation 4:2

"there was something in appearance [like sapphire stone], the likeness of a throne." Ezekiel 1:26

"round about the throne there is [a rainbow like an emerald] in appearance." Revelation 4:3

"There was [something like the appearance of the bow] that occurs in a cloud mass on the day of a pouring rain." Ezekiel 1:28

"what [seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones] and like the very heavens for purity." Exodus 24:10.

"angels in heaven" Matthews 18:10.

"God's angels ascending and descending" Genesis 28:12.

"Making his angels spirits...[a devouring fire]." Psalms 104:4.

"How [fear-inspiring] this place is...the gate of the heavens" Genesis 28:17.

"this [great phenomenon]" Exodus 3:3.

"there was a [tempestuous wind] coming from the north [a great cloud mass and quivering fire, and it had a brightness all around], and out of the midst of it there was [something like the look of electrum], out of the midst of the fire." Ezekiel 1:4.

"the living creatures (cherubic angels), their appearance was like burning coals of fire. Something like the appearance of torches was moving back and forth between the living creatures, and out of the fire there was lightning going forth." Ezekiel 1:13.

"Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysolite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold...the anointed cherub...On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about." Ezekiel 28:13, 14.

"[an expanse of awesome ice, stretched out] over their heads up above." Ezekiel 1:22.

"the [mountain of meeting]" Isaiah 14:13.

"His clothing was white just like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire." Daniel 7:9

"There was a stream of fire flowing and going out from before him." Daniel 7:10.

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Finally these words of Jesus to Nicodemus seem quite fitting here:

If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? - John 3:12.

And again what was stated in another place:

But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. -1 Corinthians 2:14.

reply to post by Broom


Thanks for the reply. You didn't answer this:

Could you please explain exactly which laws of physics are being broken, and how?

Could it be that no laws of physics are being broken (or 'defied') and that you began your earlier post by demonstrating just how poorly qualified you are to speak on the subject of physical cosmology?

There is also a spirit realm which the Bible refers to as heavens. This is the heavens that is being referred to as encompassing the others.

You did not explain, as requested, how you know these 'heavens' exist. Are you getting your cosmology from the Bible? In that case, could you point us to the passage in which these heavens are distinguished from the physical universe?

Perhaps you had better read this before you answer.

As for the shape of the universe, this is speculated by observation of objects and structures within the universe.

Exactly who speculates thus? The shape of the Universe is a matter of curiosity and debate among scientists. No doubt the Bible knows better than they, but where does it tell us the Universe is a sphere? Could you point out, please, the passage where this is stated?

It is true that the universe may be more rectangular, but it definitely has a shape.

Wait a minute. It's a sphere but it's more rectangular? Can you show us a rectangular sphere? Is there a passage in the Bible describing such an object? If so, could you kindly state chapter and verse?

A dimension is a line of reference, a point as it were.

A line is a point? Is this, again, from the Bible? It is obviously not from any textbook of geometry!

When the broom does not answer someone it may be because he did not see the question, or merely because that person is not worthy of a reply just as it was wisely counseled may ages ago in a certain work: "Further, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights." -2 Timothy 2:23.

My dear Broom, my questions may be foolish and ignorant, but not nearly as foolish and ignorant as the statements you have made regarding physics and cosmology on this thread. A well-informed child could do better than you.

Doubtless there are subjects on which you are an expert, but these, I am sorry to say, are not among them. Leave science to people who understand it and do not try to support the Bronze Age cosmology of the Bible with scientific terminology you do not understand and do not know how to apply. You will find no foothold for your beliefs in modern physics or cosmology.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Science and Philosophy are both beneficial to study but to substitute them for one's own observations can only be called Ignor-ant..

Science (and Philosophy even) only says "this leads to that.." or "this affects that, in THIS way.." but notice how it never really describes WHY anything happens..
I am not talking about "causality" exactly either.. I'm talking about Motivation..

The only thing that seems evident about the Motivation of "Everything that Inhabits the Universe" is:

Living-Things struggle to defy gravity..
"Non-Living-Things" do not..

anything I am missing..?

I am not condemning the study of Science or otherwise, but I am reminded of a Buddhist saying I remember hearing that goes something like, "Before studying Buddhism, I saw trees as trees, and mountains as mountains.. In studying the words of the Buddha, I began to see that trees are NOT trees, mountains are NOT mountains.. But now I have apprehended their essence, I once again see Trees as Trees, and Mountains as Mountains.."

Because otherwise, by either projection or interpretation, our perception very literally renders the Universe as it sees fit, and areas like Science and Philosophy simply outline the game-rules..
What kind of game are you playing..?

To the OP:

reply to post by onequestion


The point is not to explore the known universe. The point is theoretical to discover and explore.

Science is not all encompassing. Not even close.

I very much agree with this. The only thing I have to add is: perhaps the point is to realize that memories are all that remains of the "known universe" and in-fact we are exploring and discovering during every moment of our lives..?