A World without the Word God

reply to post by signalfire


Look into state atheism. atheism, if promoted as an ideal superior to other ideals, will and has had dire consequences to those who don't don't subscribe to it.

A little off topic. Sorry.

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


Belief in gods and deities, excluding monotheistic worship, inspired us to question Nature and the world we lived in. Sure, we may have falsely attributed thunder to deities like Ishkur, Baal, and Thor; or wrongly assumed that the withering and return of the harvest was tied to the tragedy of Dumuzi, or the kidnap of Persephone; at the core though, belief in a race of divine and holy beings lead us to explore the mysteries of Nature, and to probe the depths of ourselves.

Should we move forward, and come to understand the seasons as effects of our planet's axial tilt, and that thunder is the product of super-heated air created by a lightning bolt? Definitely. But that doesn't mean we should pretend that the inspiration for such understanding never existed. It was our desire to know and understand the gods that pushed us to dare their territory. Without a desire to know our deities we never would have challenged the storm, or pursued the depths of the Earth, or rose above the beasts of the plains. The gods are a part of human evolution, and they belong in their proper place.

God, though, meaning: a monotheistic Creator who governs all things... yeah, He's not a part of human evolution. He is a step backward. Instead of embracing Nature, through the gods, He and His congregants encouraged us to ignore Nature, and instead accept everything as His will, without looking into the actual mechanics involved. God is a cop-out, and unnecessary.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

Belief in gods and deities, excluding monotheistic worship, inspired us to question Nature and the world we lived in.

Other way around, buddy.

Sure, we may have falsely attributed thunder to deities like Ishkur, Baal, and Thor; or wrongly assumed that the withering and return of the harvest was tied to the tragedy of Dumuzi, or the kidnap of Persephone; at the core though, belief in a race of divine and holy beings lead us to explore the mysteries of Nature, and to probe the depths of ourselves.

Still the other way around.

Should we move forward, and come to understand the seasons as effects of our planet's axial tilt, and that thunder is the product of super-heated air created by a lightning bolt? Definitely. But that doesn't mean we should pretend that the inspiration for such understanding never existed.

Other - way - around.

It was our desire to know and understand the gods that pushed us to dare their territory. Without a desire to know our deities we never would have challenged the storm, or pursued the depths of the Earth, or rose above the beasts of the plains. The gods are a part of human evolution, and they belong in their proper place.

Are you deliberately getting things confused here?

God, though, meaning: a monotheistic Creator who governs all things... yeah, He's not a part of human evolution. He is a step backward. Instead of embracing Nature, through the gods, He and His congregants encouraged us to ignore Nature, and instead accept everything as His will, without looking into the actual mechanics involved. God is a cop-out, and unnecessary.

Well at least you got that far.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


God = Everything

Polytheism = Monotheism in disguise

All = 1

Everything is manifestation of principle of "Becoming".

Take the bait and dare to debate.

Aphorism
reply to post by signalfire

 

Look into state atheism. atheism, if promoted as an ideal superior to other ideals, will and has had dire consequences to those who don't don't subscribe to it.

A little off topic. Sorry.

They arent actually atheist, no one is.

They just made their State into the Godly Icon.
The 'leader', Caesar, is presented as the Son of the State Deity.

So actually even atheists on the street are theists, just depends on what they glorify in their life.

The reason these mentalities tend towards failure is because they are in denial of pertinent facts and their confusion results in problems.

This is probably why kids should be taught philosophy. The need to be big thinkers to address the big problems.

muzzleflash
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

Ok whoa, thats a curve ball.

What is the "Holy Spirit" to you and why doesnt this word equate to "God" in your language?

You said Goddess, what do you mean?
Isnt God = Goddess ?
Im convinced all of these words mean essentially the same thing.

This convo was fun, but now its gettin way interesting. Go on plz you have me genuinely curious confused and shocked.

Words may just be words .. more noise than anything.. but which have an etymology
stretching back to the early beginnings...for example our word God has all these
connotations now.. but in the very beginnings, most cultures on Earth worshipped
the gods as stars in the sky.. in specific the gods which didn't dip below the horizon..
such as the polar stars. This is the reason for the number 7 in metaphysics.. the number
7 in the bible (as the 7 thrones before God).. the 7 this, the 7 that.. it's all simple
astronomy and cultural astrology.. descending down through the years.. corrupted
and misunderstood. Really.. in all likelihood. unless you are a true and thorough
scholar.. and also an initiate.. perhaps everything you know about metaphysical
or spiritual matters is just ... wrong. That's not for me to say of course.

Religion is just a castoff, of the original, easily observable truths. Of course
I don't often say this.. I don't want to hurt someone who has cherished beliefs
that aren't actually based on anything. If they can find peace and joy and love...
in fact if they can BECOME love.. then who am I to look down my nose at their way...
the words matter zero in the end.. they are fingers pointing at the moon. If you
can find the moon.. find your own personal salvation so to speak.. then that's
what matters. There is also great beauty and truth to be found in most holy
books.. the founders are often very special.. touched by reality.. they
just don't share these core truths with any but their closest disciples,
who then get it all wrong after the founder leaves.. it's always been this way.

Of course the mystery is much deeper than this.

Insofar as different names for different 'parts' or 'aspects' of God.. sure..
there is a lot to know.. just like there are different 'parts' or 'aspects' to
the human body, mind, and deepest spiritual core.. one word does not
describe all... and in the end, you throw away nearly ALL of these names
and parts and treasured concepts.. they are lead weights..

There IS a way to self-knowledge. It's just not written down in the world.

It always makes me a bit wistful.. so few are willing to "work in the Lord's
garden" and would rather lash out saying "Lord Lord!"... but giving no
love to anyone.. just wailing about with their useless words.. that they
don't even know the history of.. or the history behind the history...
and even if they know the history.. words are just fingers pointing at
the moon.. if they have not traveled to the moon so to speak, and then
returned from there.. they are just a noisy cymbal... banging in the
wind.

So few can receive a gift of love.. they are so full of their own hurtful
selves and their own useless knowledge.

I know this sounds harsh.. and judgmental.. but I was one of those
noisy cymbals.. those word-throwing people who said 'Lord Lord'
but did not tend the garden.. for a very long time... and even
after all that... after my own journey.. I'm such a beginner..
such a fool still in so many ways.. so poor in love and wisdom..

After all that.. that 50+ year journey.. my fulltime journey
where I did little else.. very few can distinguish what I say
from noise.. so I just pop up here and there and then go
away.. sometimes one person will benefitted.. rarely
two..

I'm sure it sounds like I have a messiah complex, or think
that I'm so special. Not at all. Everyone is responsible
for themselves. I have no 'mission'. I'm a spiritual toddler..
the fact that I can take a few steps may look impressive
but rest assured, I fall over too.

It has always been this way.

I guess I'll leave things there for now.

KPB

According to soltzynitzn USSR state athiezm was just a place for one religion to hide behind while its members pogromed 35 million ( or more, plus others too ) christians to death...

In China a huge millions of christians were killed off too...guess who put, and aided Mao ( and ultimately uncle Joe Stalin [above] too ) into power...thats right the wealthy parents of the wealthy people who are now funding alciaduh who are also killing christians..

Where there is no belief in a religious system that doesn't mean there is nothing.. have belief in yourself, the people around you and your fellow man. I think belief is important but it is focused in the wrong places. Lets believe in each other and let it take us places we have never been before.

Our Earth is being wrecked by greed, war and an indifference to each others culture. When we are gone our kids will take up the mantle, the majority of us are poor to middle class and there is no difference to us other than a supposed monetary value.

I hate to be cheesey but we should create wealth for ourselves and our community instead of giving to the corporations.. anyone can make a burger ffs.

Well you could have that in your own life, boss of your own belly button. But this earth is co-shared with 7 billion humans and alot of other life, and no one's boss of my belly button. I'm a sovereign being no matter what group of asshats tries to abuse public purse, will and power when they take office and any of their psuedo rules, because they're just a bully running around trying to dominate others on the playground shoving IOU's in their face. I recognize all that as toilet paper.

reply to post by muzzleflash

God = Everything

Polytheism = Monotheism in disguise

If distinct entities with distinct personalities control distinct elements that are not intrinsically bound to one another to such a point that one cannot change without instilling an equivalent change in the other, then no, it is not monotheism. One would suspect you didn't even try to examine that idea before deciding it was valid.

Take the bait and dare to debate.

Dare to debate? I just shot down your land-to-air missile. Bring your battleship and it will share the same fate.

reply to post by muzzleflash

So actually even atheists on the street are theists, just depends on what they glorify in their life.

I'm beginning to question your fundamental understanding of the term 'atheist'.

This is probably why kids should be taught philosophy. The need to be big thinkers to address the big problems.

And some adults too, evidently. *pointed look*

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


Do you understand that you are in the minority when it comes to thinking the way you do. You know that most religious people don't kill in the name of their religion because THEIR RELIGION FORBIDS this kind of action.

People kill people not religion kills people. Extremists exist in everything even when it comes to atheism.

I thought as you did once and after researching with an honest heart I stepped away from that position.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Read my Unicorn and then Neptune threads.

They utterly debunk polytheism being separate and reveal the highest levels of occult knowledge are Monotheistic.

You think I didnt work this out well surprise, I actually used science and symbolism to prove it.

I await your debunking in those threads, Ill give you a month since its a ton of info to absorb.

bitsforbytes
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

Do you understand that you are in the minority when it comes to thinking the way you do. You know that most religious people don't kill in the name of their religion because THEIR RELIGION FORBIDS this kind of action.

People kill people not religion kills people. Extremists exist in everything even when it comes to atheism.

I thought as you did once and after researching with an honest heart I stepped away from that position.

People are programmed from an early age.. perhaps even in
late gestation in the womb.. by religion, yes.. but by
family and society and by an X factor I won't go into.

But in any case, they are programmed to hate and mistrust
and to keep others a distance.. and to play games of
dominance.. not knowing that all this programming is
just a way to ignore the emptiness within themselves.

There IS a way to find the fullness in the emptiness..
but few follow that path.. it's difficult.

So my friend.. your observation about my words
may be an oversimplification.

Be that as it may, thanks for your thoughts.

KPB

muzzleflash
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Read my Unicorn and then Neptune threads.

They utterly debunk polytheism being separate and reveal the highest levels of occult knowledge are Monotheistic.

You think I didnt work this out well surprise, I actually used science and symbolism to prove it.

I await your debunking in those threads, Ill give you a month since its a ton of info to absorb.

Muzzie...

Why so much vinegar?

Does it really matter if some stranger agrees with your position?

Those who appreciate you and your thoughts will do so.. and those
who can't see beyond their own position to realize that others
exist in the world may always be with us.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


In terms of the "word" "God" . . . words related to God are also quite important to consider IF one wants to deal in TRUTH AND REALITY.

The construct of a "put down"

can too easily and too frequently be in the eye of the beholder.

However, Christians ARE put down routinely and ruthlessly hereon 24/7.

The dogpile of cheering on the anti-Christian threads is sometimes deafening.

The dogpile of hostility on pro-Christian threads is also usually deafening.

Such folks would evidently have us believe that Christians are uniquely evil among all the religious groups.

The research does NOT support that.

However, EXTRINSIC religionists of every flavor do tend to be far more evil [that is, MOST EVIL AFTER the "indiscrimminantly anti-religious"--which primarily includes atheists] . . . i.e. MOST prejudiced; MOST punitive; MOST rigidly and harshly biased etc.

So . . . by itself, without DISCRIMINATING between

EXTRINSIC VS INTRINSIC CHRISTIANS, assertions are meaningless and fraught with gross inaccuracies.

40 years of research has made that rather clear.

Yet, poor research designs ignoring that distinction still abound. Many are proffered ignorantly on ATS.

Here's my commentary on this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

which is also fitting on this current thread:

I see we have another ignorant, poorly designed, limited usefulness, misleading, research study involving religion.

I wonder who/what keeps pushing these super flawed studies . . . and what their agenda is?

My responses on this thread apply here, too:


www.abovetopsecret.com...

to wit:

I read your referenced article.

IT IS A VERY FLAWED STUDY EXACTLY AS I NOTED

REGARDING

INTRINSIC VS EXTRINSIC.

IT IS FLAWED--REGARDLESS OF THE PROCLAIMED FINDINGS.

I don't have any trouble believing the findings as stated. They are quite plausible.

They simply CANNOT MEAN what seems to be the implications desired by the authors . . . and you . . .

BASED ON THAT research.

That's just a fact. The research does NOT SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT

those persons classed as VERY RELIGIOUS are

AS A GROUP

RELIABLY PREDICTED

TO BE MORE DEPRESSED

THAN THOSE NOT VERY RELIGIOUS.

Such assertions are NOT ACCURATE BECAUSE

"VERY RELIGIOUS" IS A CONFABULATED MIXED VARIABLE

WHEREIN

THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE INTRINSIC VERY RELIGIOUS VS THE EXTRINSIC VERY RELIGIOUS.

THEREFORE,

The contaminating factors from the EXTRINSICALLY VERY RELIGIOUS CLEARLY TRASHES TO WHATEVER DEGREE

THE BENEFICIAL CORRELATES OF THE INTRINSICALLY VERY RELIGIOUS.

Wishful thinking trying to make such studies into a wholesale trashing of the benefits of INTRINSIC RELIGIOSITY

IS SIMPLY INACCURATE, UNTRUE . . . . at some point, when faced with the contrary data . . . it may be disingenuous or even dishonest.

This is a 40 year old topic with me. I have no trouble with solid research and the accurate findings of solid research.

Much that goes for religiosity IS destructive.

THAT'S just NOT the WHOLE story.

This is NOT THAT difficult to understand. Sigh.

Links of solid studies outlining the critical and meaningful distinction between traits associated with INTRINSIC VS EXTRINSIC RELIGIOSITY:

from:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.zimbio.com...

www.zimbio.com...

Simply put, an intrinsic (I) religious orientation is described as being more mature in that the believer views religion as an end into itself. That is, the believer believes without clearly identifiable external motives for doing so. In contrast, an extrinsic (E) religious orientation is immature and is more of a means to some other end. That is, belief is motivated external factors (e.g., social acceptance, advancement, etc.). E (but not I) is correlated with prejudice.

Modern I-E scales are set up so that I and E are thought of as separate constructs where individuals score along two separate dimensions (i.e., low E to high E and low I to high I). Research has identified many negative correlates of high E [extrinsic religiosity] (e.g., narcissism, guilt, fear of death, aggression, etc.).

Emphases added:

= = =

2.
Religion, Intrinsic-Extrinsic Orientation, and Depression

Vicky Genia, Dale G. Shaw
Review of Religious Research, Vol. 32, No. 3 (Mar., 1991), pp. 274-283

www.jstor.org...


= = =

9.
A Study of Religiosity and Psychological Well-Being among African Americans: Implications for Counseling and Psychotherapeutic Processes

Linda K. Colbert, Joseph L. Jefferson, Ralph Gallo, Ronnie Davis
Journal of Religion and Health, Vol. 48, No. 3 (Sep., 2009), pp. 278-289

www.jstor.org...



= = =

A Comparison of Religious Orientation and Health Between Whites and Hispanics

Ray M. Merrill, Patrick Steffen, Bradley D. Hunter
Journal of Religion and Health, Vol. 51, No. 4 (December 2012), pp. 1261-1277

www.jstor.org...


= = =

24.
God Help Me (II): The Relationship of Religious Orientations to Religious Coping with Negative Life Events

Kenneth I. Pargament, Hannah Olsen, Barbara Reilly, Kathryn Falgout, David S. Ensing, Kimberly Van Haitsma
Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Dec., 1992), pp. 504-513

www.jstor.org...

= = =

INTRINSIC-EXTRINSIC RELIGIOSITY

www.hirr.hartsem.edu...




Authentic Christianity HAS to be INTRINSIC to be authentic.

Inauthentic Christianity is an oxymoron. Inauthentic isn't Christianity.

Folks can worship the idea of Christianity without worshiping Jesus as God. Doesn't work.

Folks can worship a tree very intensely to get along with the village elders etc. . . . doesn't work.

Folks can intensely jump through a list of good "Christian" practices and hoops to curry favor with man or even with God in the individual's mind. Doesn't work.

Along these lines,

THE RHEMA CODE by Scott Schang and

DESTINED TO REIGN by Joseph Prince

as well as THE MIRROR Bible

and MY FATHER MY FATHER by Sam Soleyn and son

are currently of much help to me in growing in these areas.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Again not for the first time you mix up the words truth and faith.

The reasons why people attack Christians on ATS is Christianity is the major religion for the religious on ATS also If Christians stopped with the threats of Hell, minded their own business and stopped trying to put religion into government Iam sure the attacks would ease off.

Also with the constant end of days BS you lot have been bleating about it since the roman times and it hasn't happened....maybe many people are just sick to death of it.

Oh and stop crying about it eh? all you do is moan how everyone is against the Christians...keep it up and only more will join in.

Keep religion in your church or home please, Religion has had it's chance and is (Thankfully) disappearing.
Three more generations and the human race will be better off.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Thank you brother Bo Xian for all the time you put
into your post. I do not endorse the bashing of those
who love Jesus. Not in any way. I myself am not
terribly pleased how the apostles and the roman
emperors took something beautiful and full of
truth, and turned it into modern-day pharaseeism
to use a sloppy phrase. I myself would rather love
them and won't bash them.

However I do understand those who are badly hurt
by Christians, who somehow say some of the right
words, but never got the message of loving your
brother.. If a Christian wouldn't feed and house
a random person, they have no business telling
them about the state of their 'soul'.... which
they don't even know one single thing about.

Sometimes the Samaritan is the person with the
most love in their heart, not those who "dress up
in robes and bang cymbals when they give alms
to the poor".

Love,

KPB

reply to post by boymonkey74

. . .

. . . Keep religion in your church or home please,

Ahhhhhhhhhh

It's QUITE OK in your view, evidently

for YOU

to spout YOUR COSMOLOGY/RELIGION/PHILOSOPHY day in and day out hereon in your posts

as everyone does in virtually all their posts . . . we cannot say much

outside of our values and constructions on reality . . . they will be expressed regardless of the topic.

Sooooooooooo you think YOUR views are OK to spew in all your posts but

Christians need to be herded into ghettos on ATS and elsewhere.

Cute.

BTW, I think your perspective is grossly uninformed and unaware.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Then stop crying saying "we get attacked all the time" man up and take it on the chin.
Oh and If only we could put all the Religious on a single land mass... wouldn't even take one generation for you all to kill each other off.