Police shoot 13 year old carrying fake rifle.

I love how it takes two cops SEVEN rounds to neutralize a target?
What do they teach these idiots? "Keep squeezing the trigger until he hits the ground? Fill him full of lead and then pump one in his skull?"

Good grief. A double tap to the chest is plenty good enough.

OneManArmy
My intention wasnt to name call, just highlight that you are the professional investigator.

And I have used that training and experience to bring that side to this situation.

OneManArmy
Please dispute these facts...
1. A thirteen yr old boy is dead.

They did not know the age at the time of contact.

OneManArmy
2. An eyewitness(yes a valid eyewitness, who was near to the scene) accounted police sirens and 7 shots fired seconds later.

Thats because the deputies notified dispatch and asked for immediate backup.

OneManArmy
3. The threat turned out to be a toy.

Not known till after the fact.

OneManArmy
4. The police officers didnt take the time to establish the fact that the "AK" was a toy.

And the kid didnt listen when told to put the gun down.

What you and others dont get is an officer is not required to distinguish between a gun and a toy gun, even more so when the toy gun looks like the real thing.

Its no different than dealing with a person who claims they are special forces, MMA fighters etc.. The moment the comment is made those claims are going to be considered truthful, resulting in law enforcement adapting to the new information.

Its irrelevent if its discovered the person making a claim was lying. At that moment in time, where a splt second decision must be made, the claim is real.

OneManArmy
Are any of these facts in dispute?, if so please enlighten me as to how?

I said facts not in the article..

reply to post by Bedlam


Do we know if the car had a camera system and body mics for the officers?

JayinAR
I love how it takes two cops SEVEN rounds to neutralize a target?
What do they teach these idiots? "Keep squeezing the trigger until he hits the ground? Fill him full of lead and then pump one in his skull?"

Good grief. A double tap to the chest is plenty good enough.

Its called stopping the threat. That occurs because bullets can fail.. Body armor can fail.. We aim center mass, which means we are targeting an area that can take multiople hits. A single shot to the chest, or even 3 shots to the chest, is not always going to result in death.

All that was needed was for the kid to drop the gun.

Let me add this - more food for thought.
Where did this incident occur in Santa Rosa?
Were there any pedestrians near when this occurred?
Was there traffic when this incident occurred?
Were there any businesses open and near where this occureD?
School? College?

All of those factors are considered (tennessee vs. Garner). If the officers waited could a hostage situation occur?

I can keep going but you get the idea.. People are viewing this incident based on personal opinion and not established law.

That is a problem..

Xcathdra


They did not know the age of the person until after contact.
They did not know if the gun was real or not until after contact.

And yes the only attempt at "contact" was the bullets contacting the body of the poor child. Who I may add was NOT ARMED. He had a toy.
Im finding your defense of the police officers involved and going so far as to blaming the 13 yr old child for his death absolutely disgusting, in the face of the apparent facts.
Its people like YOU that allow these atrocities to happen, and not only allow it, but defend it and actively support it, making sure police officers are not held to account for their crimes thus making them become above the law and worse, perpetuating the injustice without fear of reproach.

cavtrooper7
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Don't forget the weight of a dead child's ghost. If anyone has an AK and no orange tip and I were to face that I would be forced to do the same.

Never underestimate a child with a gun.We vets were taught that one from Vietnam.
Hard but true.

I knew a captain that shot a couple of kids point blank because they were walking towards them with a basket and their hands in it. Turns out it had an IED in, so it was a good choice. He had some bad psych issues over it, ended up remfing it and then retired a few months later. But I've known other guys that were more like that door gunner on FMJ. Hell, one of my uncles still has his 'necklace', and what sort I can't describe on ATS. Shouldn't anyway.

Point being, yeah, you're right, but then again sometimes you get better reactions if you DON'T kick the door down, butt stroke the first guy you see in the face and start kicking some people in the guts and butt stroking the others. Yeah, it works, but sometimes you just get weird ass reactions out of people, despite the little training films that tell you that if you brutalize the first few people you encounter in an unforgettable way, the others will be frozen with indecision while you take control of the AO.

Not that I'm saying that's what happened here, but it's my occasional experience that LEOs appear to be trained to jump out, spread out, and every one of them start screaming commands which you might or might not be able to execute or understand at the tops of their lungs. A more measured one-officer-screaming-only approach with firm, clear commands instead of the dog pack barking downfreezedowndontmovedowndropitdown might work better.

reply to post by Bedlam


Of course they are trained that way. They are trained to confuse you so their "gotcha" interrogation techniques will work.

Problem is it also gets people killed.

And that's where the FOP comes in and folks like our resident apologist here who put their fellow officer above the average dog they mow down on the street.

Xcathdra
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Do we know if the car had a camera system and body mics for the officers?

I don't know. It would be great if so. I'm all for recordings on BOTH sides of this sort of issue. It extinguishes those nagging doubts. Whether it's the LEO or the civilian or both that were at fault.

reply to post by OneManArmy


An AK is an AK until it is not. If that were YOUR team you may talk if you want to but you know as well as I do that is not a good idea and yes kids DO fire on us all the damn time.Who knows in this day and age what that poor kid was taught or WAHT HE MAY HAVE BEEN ON? This is a result of making guns the villian and not the person.
I morn his loss. Perhaps you have heard of 13Eers? Its a breed of cop that is young and skiddish that over reacts.Maybe this is a case of that.
I sure as hell wouldn't make a good cop.I know it and never will try to be one.I would love to get my hands on a rapist ,murderer or child molester and violate due process with a knife.
But this? It's just all bad no one won a damn thing.

Xcathdra

OneManArmy
My intention wasnt to name call, just highlight that you are the professional investigator.

And I have used that training and experience to bring that side to this situation.

OneManArmy
Please dispute these facts...
1. A thirteen yr old boy is dead.

They did not know the age at the time of contact.

And that proves they didnt take the time to find out.

OneManArmy
2. An eyewitness(yes a valid eyewitness, who was near to the scene) accounted police sirens and 7 shots fired seconds later.

Thats because the deputies notified dispatch and asked for immediate backup.

Fair enough valid explanation, but see 1 above.

OneManArmy
3. The threat turned out to be a toy.

Not known till after the fact.

Refer to answer 1.

OneManArmy
4. The police officers didnt take the time to establish the fact that the "AK" was a toy.

And the kid didnt listen when told to put the gun down. (Thats what the police officers that killed him to find they had murdered a child described as what happened)

What you and others dont get is an officer is not required to distinguish between a gun and a toy gun, even more so when the toy gun looks like the real thing.

What you dont get as a police officer is that possessing a replica gun is not a crime, so it is your duty to at least find out if the gun is real and make some attempt of a fast assessment of a scene before rushing to unleash bullets before any real threat is found. You guys seem to forget the value of life that isnt your own.
Im sure the poor childrens parents will never forget.

OneManArmy
And yes the only attempt at "contact" was the bullets contacting the body of the poor child.

Wrong.. The marked patrol vehicle, deputies in uniform, verbal commands. Contact was made prior to the shooting and no amount of spin is going to change that fact.

OneManArmy
Who I may add was NOT ARMED. He had a toy.

Actually no he did not have a toy. He had a gun.. It was only after the event was it determined the gun was a toy. Again, ignoring the law / case law simply because you dont like it does not invalidate it.

OneManArmy
Im finding your defense of the police officers involved and going so far as to blaming the 13 yr old child for his death absolutely disgusting, in the face of the apparent facts.

I find the lack of effort to educate about how this all works is equally disgusting. His age is not relevent, the fact the gun was a toy is not relvent.

Whats only relevent is what occurred at that moment in time.

He should have put the gun down.. plain and simple.

OneManArmy
Its people like YOU that allow these atrocities to happen, and not only allow it, but defend it and actively support it, making sure police officers are not held to account for their crimes thus making them become above the law and worse, perpetuating the injustice without fear of reproach.

Back to personal attacks I see.. Look, I know what im talking about and am presenting the info to these forums for a reason. As an example it serves as a counter balance to people who have no idea what they are talking about.

As for your atrocity comment - Do you always resort to name calling when your argument is undermined by facts?

Stop with the childish overly dramatic proclamations and engage with facts and an open mind. If you are going to refuse to learn, then you are going to contiunue being in the dark on these issues.

Hindsight 20/20 cannot be used. Your argument is based on the aftermath, not what the deputies perceived the moment they used force.

No amount of name calling is going to overrule a US Supreme Court decision. You dont like the police? Then get involved and do something about it.

JayinAR
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

OK. So the cop perceived a kid walking down aroad with two toys as an immediate and present danger and gunned the punk down.

And you are justifying it.

I feel like I am talking to a potential murderer here.

And no, I didn't offer a double standard. I said I would have shot IF HE POINTED HIS PISTOL AT ME, as that is an immediate danger that would have required lethal force.

A KID failing to comply with orders does not escalate the situation to bullets in my opinion.

I think we need more former military as cops.
You guys aren't trained worth a damn.
Clearly

edit on 23-10-2013 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)

One of the major problems with our police forces is that there too many former military on the force. Look into the backgrounds of most of the cops doing the killings are ex-military.

The rifle that the kid was carrying doesn't look like a toy if you think it does then you have never seen a real AK.

Xcathdra

OneManArmy
And yes the only attempt at "contact" was the bullets contacting the body of the poor child.

Wrong.. The marked patrol vehicle, deputies in uniform, verbal commands. Contact was made prior to the shooting and no amount of spin is going to change that fact.

OneManArmy
Who I may add was NOT ARMED. He had a toy.

Actually no he did not have a toy. He had a gun.. It was only after the event was it determined the gun was a toy. Again, ignoring the law / case law simply because you dont like it does not invalidate it.

OneManArmy
Im finding your defense of the police officers involved and going so far as to blaming the 13 yr old child for his death absolutely disgusting, in the face of the apparent facts.

I find the lack of effort to educate about how this all works is equally disgusting. His age is not relevent, the fact the gun was a toy is not relvent.

Whats only relevent is what occurred at that moment in time.

He should have put the gun down.. plain and simple.

OneManArmy
Its people like YOU that allow these atrocities to happen, and not only allow it, but defend it and actively support it, making sure police officers are not held to account for their crimes thus making them become above the law and worse, perpetuating the injustice without fear of reproach.

Back to personal attacks I see.. Look, I know what im talking about and am presenting the info to these forums for a reason. As an example it serves as a counter balance to people who have no idea what they are talking about.

As for your atrocity comment - Do you always resort to name calling when your argument is undermined by facts?

Stop with the childish overly dramatic proclamations and engage with facts and an open mind. If you are going to refuse to learn, then you are going to contiunue being in the dark on these issues.

Hindsight 20/20 cannot be used. Your argument is based on the aftermath, not what the deputies perceived the moment they used force.

No amount of name calling is going to overrule a US Supreme Court decision. You dont like the police? Then get involved and do something about it.

Every time an innocent man woman or child is killed its an atrocity. It saddens me that you dont see it that way. Its not the police I dislike, I dont know what gave you that idea, its the bent crooked and corrupted psychopaths that kill innocent people that I dislike, forgive me for being offended by your defense of them.
Im not being at all overly dramatic, given the situation, Im not being dramatic at all.

Of course, the entire "orange tip" thing is a Bad Idea as well.

That is, if LEOs are really put at ease by painting the end of a rifle or sidearm orange, it would be a great way to set them up for an ambush.

Oh, yeah, ossifer, this is an Airsoft. See? It's orange and I've got this magazine of little pellets, by the way, bam bam bam bam bam.

Coming from my own little paranoid military experience, I'd be as spooked by the ones with orange tips, because it's too obvious a way to get you to let your guard down.

OneManArmy
And that proves they didnt take the time to find out.

As I have stated several times.. Split second decision. Secondly age is NOT a factor. A person had a gun that looked real.. You drop the gun and then explain to the police the age and the fact its a toy. You dont engage in that when a person is holding an AK 47 and refuses commands to drop the gun.

OneManArmy
And the kid didnt listen when told to put the gun down. (Thats what the police officers that killed him to find they had murdered a child described as what happened)

They shot to stop the threat, not to murder a child. The kid had a gun.. plain and simple.

OneManArmy
What you dont get as a police officer is that possessing a replica gun is not a crime,

Incorrect - It depends on ho that "toy" is used. Robbing a bank with a water gun that looks real can result in a weapons charge. The standard is what would a reasonable person think in a given situation.

And again.. only after the incident was it dertermined the gun was a toy. The deputies did not know that at the time and again the kid should have put the gun down.

OneManArmy
so it is your duty to at least find out if the gun is real and make some attempt of a fast assessment of a scene before rushing to unleash bullets before any real threat is found.

Which is what these deputies did by ordering the kid to drop the gun.

You are failing to understand the danger of the situation. The kids age and toy is not relevent. Its a splt second decision based on the info they had at the time it occurred. Nothing can change that.

OneManArmy
You guys seem to forget the value of life that isnt your own.
Im sure the poor childrens parents will never forget.

I put my life on the line for people all the time.. I am well aware of what I was going to face when I went into law enforcement. Civilian lives come first - always.

They would not have to forget if the kid would have put the gun down.

OneManArmy
Who I may add was NOT ARMED. He had a toy.

Exactly when did you know he had a toy?
Better yet and more importantly when did the officers there know he had a toy?
The answer to both questions is after the fact.

opethPA

OneManArmy
Who I may add was NOT ARMED. He had a toy.

Exactly when did you know he had a toy?
Better yet and more importantly when did the officers there know he had a toy?
The answer to both questions is after the fact.

I think you are missing the point that the facts should have been established before the kid died.
And you only have the murderers account of what happened. Call me stupid, but I think its only fair to assume that officers upon finding out they had killed an innocent child, would seek to cover their backs.

OneManArmy
Every time an innocent man woman or child is killed its an atrocity. It saddens me that you dont see it that way.

And again you are wrong.. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth or paint me into a position that I dont hold. I stated a few pages back this was an atrocity..

I dont advocate the killing of people... However, when a person is armed, it becomes something different. I provided a list of what ifs that need to be answered for a more detailed picture.. It saddens me that you are unwilling to allow a full investigation with all the facts. It saddens me that you are unwilling to learn the laws that govern law enforcement. Most of all it saddens me that you are only targeting law enforcement while ignoring the kids part in this mess.

You are doing to law enforcement what you accuse law enforcement of doing to the kid.

OneManArmy
Its not the police I dislike, I dont know what gave you that idea, its the bent crooked and corrupted psychopaths that kill innocent people that I dislike, forgive me for being offended by your defense of them.

Its not a defense of them... Its me explaining the side of the law that you and others willfully ignore simply because you have preceonceived notions about law enforcement and lump them all together.

Im not corrupt.. Im not a psychopath and I dont kill innocent people.

Once again, since you are ignoring it, I am representing the law enforcement side to this debate. We certainly have enough people on this site who hate law enforcement. However that does not mean that side of the coin should be ignored.

My position on this is based on the law and not my personal opinion where as lots of people in this threat base their position on their personal emotions / feelings / political beliefs.

Instead of coming after me how about having an open mind and take the information learned and do something about it?
You dont like the way law enforcement works... Wy not take the information I provided and actually use it to make the changes you think need to be made.

Yelling at the sky because its raining does not resolve the problem.

Sticking your fingers in your ears does not change the law. You need to learn that side of the situation, then use that gained knowledge to effect change.

Its easier to fix something when we know where to look for the problem.

OneManArmy
Im not being at all overly dramatic, given the situation, Im not being dramatic at all.

Then you should read your posts where you accused me of various things which are false.

What a bunch of nonsense.

A few years ago, here in rural Arkansas, a man was in his back yard shooting squirrels with his .22. A neighbor calls the police and the police show up, walk to the guy's chain link fence, yell at him to turn around, he does so with gun in hand and bites THIRTEEN rounds to the chest.

Technically this was a "justified shooting" as well, but that doesn't make it right.

Those pigs knew the situation they were getting into. Dude was in his back yard with a gun. So johnny law shows up and kills him for it.

It doesn't make a bit of difference to these arseholes if their actions are morally right or wrong
Its about what they can get away with under the letter of the law.

Just as in this case, everyone knows damn well that these cops are killers. But they'll get a two weeks paid vacation out of the gig. Just wait and see. Makes me sick.

JayinAR
Those pigs knew the situation they were getting into. Dude was in his back yard with a gun. So johnny law shows up and kills him for it.

Typical internet tough guy using the term pigs.. whatever gets you through the night.