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Atheists are actually Christians....

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posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

So you refuse to admit that you were wrong about the correlation between education and religious beliefs. And you refuse to admit that the reason there aren't atheists coming out in islamic lands is because those lands don't allow the information debunking Islam into the country and because Islamic lands try to kill those who leave Islam. And you refuse to admit that you lied about what I said.

Okay .. got it .. you refuse to admit the facts and that you were wrong multiple times on this thread.
We'll all keep that in mind when you post in the future.

So again - in response to the post replyed to - The reason that atheism isn't discussed in Islamic countries - they don't have access to the facts that debunk their religion and they don't have access to a safe place in which they can state their true beliefs without a death threat hanging over them.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


hi flyersfan
I agree with what you say but I just wanted to clarify a few things

I actually lurked on the ex-Muslim site for a while, its always a good thing to look at stuff from different perspectives any way I picked a few of the posters back stories – a lot of them are UK citizens, they are as English as fish and chips but they where born to Muslim parents

It’s still dangerous to come out as they have and they deserve medals as big as dustbin lids for that

In the more developed parts of the Muslim world (I guess with easy internet access) the disbelief of the youngsters is seen as a huge problem that has Muslim leaders very worried and the cracks are now starting to show with atheist bloggers appearing in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia – even when that can mean a death sentence for them.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:15 AM
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windword
reply to post by spartacus699
 


I am a Christian atheist. I was raised in a Pentecostal home and church environment and know my Bible and understand the beliefs. There was never such a sensation of relief, release of burden and freedom as when I realized that it was all lies and left the church and it's philosophy behind.

I don't believe in the Biblical god, nor do I believe that Jesus, if he existed, was God. I reject the virgin birth, the miracles, the sacrificial death of a blood offering of atonement for sin, the resurrection and the idea of heaven and hell. I reject the concept of the "rapture", the second coming and the entirety of the prophecy of the book of Revelations.

The Bible is NOT the word of God, but the words of men, many of whom were the most corrupt to ever walk the planet. Although I can admire many of the writings and the stories, I know that they are nothing but mythical interpretations of the mystery of nature and life. I can embrace some of the teachings of Jesus and reject others.

I'm not an atheist though, because I do believe in a spiritual hierarchy, mysticism, angels and/or spiritual guides and in reincarnation.


Even Windword has an honest approach. I can accept if someone says they just don't believe something. I also grew up in Pentecostalism, but I probably didn't grow up in the same type of church. My parents didn't take us to church all the time, so we have had fractured teaching growing up.

But if you grew up in a church that the pastor told you that God will give you gold dust teeth and a Mercedes Benz, then I can see how you left it. Windword's issues seem to arise from the church itself, not spirituality.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:20 AM
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WarminIndy
do you find yourself applying psychology to people that you question their faith?

Not sure what you mean by that. You'll have to rephrase.

Do you follow Jung or Freud?

Freud is largely debunked. Jung is better. I like Erikson and Skinner.

perhaps you could show us the writings about how important faith is within the psychologies of believers?

I'd have to dig through my books ... that'll take some time.

Do you find yourself thinking some Christians are narcissistic, megalomaniacs or other such labels? Are we egoists?

People of all faiths and people of no faith CAN BE what you just described.
(** I didn't say 'ARE' ... I said 'CAN BE' )
Psychological issues know no boundaries based on religious beliefs.

As you have defined some people as "nutters"

Anyone who feels the need to control others violently via religious beliefs ... to the point of killing those who refuse to believe as they do ... that's nutty.

You claim to be a Christian, why?

The requirements of a Christian ... believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came to save sinners. His commandment - 'love god and love neighbor'. Thats it. I believe that. So therefore I am a Christian.

you can accept some things that make sense only to you, then everyone else is "nutters" for believing more?

No .. not for 'believing more' ... nutters for wanting to control others religious beliefs via violence and destruction and lies. That's when the line is crossed. As for wildtimes, I'd have to go back and re-read what she's posted and frankly, I don't care enough to go analyze it all ...



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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FlyersFan
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

So you refuse to admit that you were wrong about the correlation between education and religious beliefs. And you refuse to admit that the reason there aren't atheists coming out in islamic lands is because those lands don't allow the information debunking Islam into the country and because Islamic lands try to kill those who leave Islam. And you refuse to admit that you lied about what I said.

Okay .. got it .. you refuse to admit the facts and that you were wrong multiple times on this thread.
We'll all keep that in mind when you post in the future.

So again - in response to the post replyed to - The reason that atheism isn't discussed in Islamic countries - they don't have access to the facts that debunk their religion and they don't have access to a safe place in which they can state their true beliefs without a death threat hanging over them.


Actually they do have access to many things, they know about Judaism, Christianity and all other kinds of religions. They probably get more education than most Christians do. But at the same time, how does this justify the attacking of Christians?

If you are so afraid to speak out against Muslims, then perhaps you don't have a problem with it? Yes, your life is in danger for offending them, and their lives are in danger for trying to get out. But they have known about Christianity for a long time and can argue very well against the Bible.

But I ask this again, does it bother you that Christians are being targeted and persecuted today? Does it bother you that Christian Copts are being killed, their homes burned, their wives raped? Does that bother you at all that a group of people today are being singled out?

That's the same psychology of the Germans who were afraid to speak out against the Nazi regime who then persecuted and killed Jews, disabled people, Gypsies and other political prisoners. Did you know, Gypsies are still persecuted today? What about them? Is it ok to single out Gypsies (Roma) and not allow them to be citizens of the countries they live in?

Dosta

The thing is, it is easy to say things to Christians, because we are easy. If you can't stand up against Islam, even if you disagree with it, because you are afraid of offending them, then perhaps you aren't the humanist you make yourself out to be.

When it comes to ideology vs. ideology without considering the human cost, then it's nothing but empty words that help no one.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 





my atheism would go from not believing in a god to not including one in my life.


Would it be reasonable to say if one talks about God, argues it, discusses it ad nauseum, that he is in fact including God in his life? This is the only way a Christian can have God in his life, isn't it?



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:40 AM
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Aphorism
reply to post by adjensen
 





For good or for ill, religion is being diluted and diminished in western societies by the powers that be, because it is in there best interests, not because "people are educated". The vast majority of irreligious people in America are just regular people, not theologians or Christ mythicists.


Which powers that be are you referring to?

As I said, big corporations and the mass media. A "me first" society is obviously in their favour, and that's what's been pushed for the last 30 years.

Outside of religious channels, how are Christians portrayed on mainstream media? Almost always, they're conservative neanderthals who are obstinate, judgmental and rabid evangelists. Atheist Ira Glass, host of public radio's This American Life, made this observation:


Glass goes on to say many groups in America feel the media covers them poorly, but Christians seem to get it “especially bad.” He says while making This American Life, he noticed many television shows and movies would depict Christians “as these hot-head, crazy people.” This depiction didn’t match his own experience with Christians he knew personally.

“The Christians in my life were all incredibly wonderful and thoughtful and had very ambiguous, complicated feelings in their beliefs. And seemed to be totally generous-hearted and totally open to a lot of different kinds of people in their lives,” he says. (Source)



I am under the impression that there is a sort of religious revival underway, although in a less traditional sense.

I've seen absolutely nothing of the sort -- the past 20 years have brought about a more violent, more perverse and a morally ambivalent culture, and the general consensus that I've seen is that America is in a rapid state of decline. I don't blame that on the diminishment of religiosity in the country, but no one can deny that two have happened simultaneously.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 






Even Windword has an honest approach.


Hey! What is that supposed to mean "Even Windword"?



But if you grew up in a church that the pastor told you that God will give you gold dust teeth and a Mercedes Benz, then I can see how you left it. Windword's issues seem to arise from the church itself, not spirituality.


Although I found the churches that my family were members of to be gossipy, judgmental, materialistic, and holy roller nutters, it wasn't the building and the congregation that sent me away from the path of Christianity. It was the doctrine. I don't believe in the doctrine of the Christian church.

Although I can embrace some of the teachings of Jesus, I can see that most congregations don't practice those teachings. I despise the various churches, including and especially the Catholic Church's, attempt to control, terrify, manipulate and shame society into servitude of their church dogma and faith. That's the reason I challenge Christianity on these forums. I"m speaking out against what I perceive to be "evil".



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by Aphorism
 



Would it be reasonable to say if one talks about God, argues it, discusses it ad nauseum, that he is in fact including God in his life? This is the only way a Christian can have God in his life, isn't it?


Uh, no. You believe in God, you follow his orders, you trust in him and only him to give you good things in life and eventually spare you from eternal damnation. And you hope that he does the same for others, that others ask for him to do for them what he does for you.

Don't act like you're confused when you know exactly what I meant.
edit on 23-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:44 AM
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sk0rpi0n
coming back to op, atheism is largely expressed in North America and Europe. For the sole reason that christianity has UTTERLY lost its footing in those regions. Which is why those particular regions have laws in place to mock God and His prophets, under the guise of free speech..... They also have laws empowering sexual degeneracy and then they wonder why conservative religious minorities refuse to ''integrate'' with them. ---------------------Faith AND family is required to sustain any society. When white christian north America and Europe trashed these values... They signed their own death warrant..................... Go ahead, celebrate gays getting married and celebrate your self gratifying short-term relationships. Go ahead and think it makes you ''progressive'' and ''advanced''. Just don't complain later on whe you discover that your societies are on the verge of collapse. Don't point fingers at Muslims and conservative asian communities for preserving their own kinds through the family unit,


The only thing I see is hate for what you do not understand and is different than yourself. Normal dualistic (even demonic) hate that you cannot control because you have not risen above it.

Some people have other sexual preferences and it is god who shall judge since most humans are to small minded to judge anything.

Same with promiscuity. Some people fit the one soul love in a life and that is wonderful. Some people want to love more than one soul in a life and are fine with that. Some have no clue what they want and will have to figure it out. Not your place to judge at all and any priests who judge will face god head on and suffer the consequences.

But to be clear I often have similar duality issues that you are showing. Should we both try to rise above it?
edit on 23-10-2013 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


The "requirements" are much more than that. The first message Jesus preached was "repent and believe the Gospel, for the kingdom of God is at hand".

Unless there is repentance first, no matter how much you love God and love your neighbor means very little. Even the rich young ruler was taught that lesson when he said "I have kept the commandments all my life", Jesus then said "take all you have and give it to the poor".


Repentance is not only recognizing what we have done, but taking accountability for it. We don't really love our neighbors as ourselves unless we are going to get something back for it. Even Judas thought loving his neighbor meant berating Mary for breaking the alabaster box and using it for Jesus' feet, which she wiped her hair and His feet and in weeping, showed her love for His mercy and grace. Instead, Judas thought of loving people he didn't know instead of seeing that right then, Mary needed something and found it.

To be a Christian, it means a life for a life, His life for mine. It's more than just believing He was sent, but that He was sent for MY life. He was sent for YOUR life. And if it is His life for mine, then I have to examine why I must give my life for His, why His life was worth so much. But God saw that my life was worth saving.

He loved His neighbor so much He gave His life for His neighbor. So can we say the same thing of us? Do we love our neighbors enough to give our lives for them? How about or energy? How about everything that fundamentally is us, can we give it for our neighbors? Even neighbors who don't care or won't be thankful?

Love isn't just in giving, but in doing, and ultimate love means you do ultimately. If you can't be willing to give your life for your neighbor, then you don't really love your neighbor as yourself.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


Exactly. So if someone doesn't subscribe to that stuff, they can't be a Christian. Case closed.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


It means YOU and Wildtimes....that's what I meant.

There are not a lot of honest people who honestly give reasons for what they believe. Even if you are following something else, at least you aren't pulling punches. That's what I meant.

I have always said I am a Christian, albeit not Orthodox, and that seems to lead to a lot of confusion about what Orthodox really is. I think people perceive me on the one hand to be fundamentalist, but on the other hand a strange creature. I do like some things about Orthodoxy, but I am not Catholic. (Why do people keep thinking I am?)

But I also read the scripture that the kingdom of God is not meat or drink, therefore I have to believe in the spiritual as well as the natural.

When His servants begin to believe that this is only natural, then they fight. And we see it all the time. That's why it bothers me when people say that we have to build the temple to usher in the New Jerusalem. They don't know where it comes from in the first place. No, we don't have to build the temple, and if people are telling you that, don't believe them.

There are some things to me that are black and white, and some things that are in the gray area. UFOs are in the gray area. I didn't say gray matter...but the point I am trying to make is that with so many Christian doctrines that have come from man, those are the ones to investigate. It is quite ok to question those things.

For instance, I don't necessarily believe Sunday is always the sabbath. Where did I get that? From the Bible, in Romans. Paul said "some esteem some days above others, but what day you esteem, then it is for you, what days others esteem, let them esteem them".

What offends you might not offend someone else, but if you know what you do offends others, then don't offend them. Paul also says that some eat meat and others don't, but just don't eat meat in front of those who don't, because you offend them. So I'm not going to just follow a holiday or a tradition because someone says I must. I want to know why I must. And if the reason is given that this is how it has always been done, then I am under no obligation to follow it.

I have my own holidays by the way, no one is forced to follow them. I thought about it and thought "why can't I have my own traditions?" Well, why can't I? So I have my own traditions.

February 9 for me is "Law of Kindness Day" and I wear purple and donate to charities I don't already donate to. That's my tradition. I watched a video about a BBC reporter who went to India to investigate why it is dangerous to be a woman in India, and she showed something that I thought was horrible. Apparently in India, when a baby boy is born, the eunuchs come and dance for it, but not for little girls that are born. So I thought to myself, why not make a day for dancing for the little girls that are born? Why not make it an international event?

I am proposing this, dance for girls day. They might be in India and follow Hinduism, but they are just little girls that no one dances for. What do you think about that?



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


In your definition, what is true Christianity? Then we can go from there. But we are talking about two people who self-identify as Christian, so therefore our core fundamental must be the same. If it is not, then one of us or neither of us are really Christian.

But since you know about it, what is true Christianity? Maybe you can explain it for the ignuhnt....



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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WarminIndy
[they do have access to many things, they know about Judaism, Christianity and all other kinds of religions. They probably get more education than most Christians do.

No. They aren't allowed to listen to anything that goes against their religious indoctrination.
Even if it's proven scientific or archeological fact ... the Islamic powers that be don't want
it in their countries.

This proves that the OPs point is not correct. Atheists aren't secretly Christians because
they rag on Christianity .. Atheists are just plain ol' atheists and if there aren't ex-muslims
or whatever being atheists it's because they haven't gotten the facts and CAN NOT
speak out for fear of death.


WarminIndy
The "requirements" are much more than that.

No. You are complicating it. Belief that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to save people ... and following his commandment of Love God and Love Neighbor. The rest will follow if those are believed and followed. If you wish to add more requirements to yourself .. go right ahead.

This isn't the thread for that kind of discussion anyways.


edit on 10/23/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



In your definition, what is true Christianity? Then we can go from there. But we are talking about two people who self-identify as Christian, so therefore our core fundamental must be the same. If it is not, then one of us or neither of us are really Christian.

But since you know about it, what is true Christianity? Maybe you can explain it for the ignuhnt....


I'm not a Christian, but I hang around them enough to get the basic gist.

- Jesus was born of a mortal virgin and a god
- He died for our sins and rose three days later
- God created everything and is the ruler of the universe
- We are all damned, and only Jesus can save us

So on and so forth. If you don't believe all of these things, you're not considered a true Christian.

edit on 23-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



At least Wildtimes is justified in calling us "nutters" because Wildtimes doesn't pretend to be one thing for one group and another thing for another group.

Wait.....
What?

Thanks....I think :puzzled face:

I just typed out a bunch more stuff after starting out with that part, but it didn't post (website unavailable?)...
so I'll condense it here.

I don't agree that FF is 'unjustified.' And I hold a Master's Degree in Social Work and was a clinical psychotherapist for several years afterward. My library has shelves FULL of professional and academic texts re psychology, psychiatry, human behavior, and sociology AS WELL AS shelves full of religious treatises, scholarly works, and texts (including the Bible, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and others)...

Let me ask you this, Indy:
Have you read William James'
The Varieties of Religious Experience? (Free online) I recommend curling up on a couch and taking your time with it, though....

If you haven't read it, I believe it would make a good addition to your (obvious) prior research and education.

Religion is, by nature, an individual endeavor, the mega-churches, clergy, and dogma notwithstanding. It is NOT a one-size-fits-all social construct, and never will be.


edit on 10/23/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



If you can't stand up against Islam, even if you disagree with it, because you are afraid of offending them, then perhaps you aren't the humanist you make yourself out to be.

WHAT?!!!!

She stands up to them every bloody day!! Directly, and thoroughly.

Perhaps read through some of the Muslim threads. I believe her point was that the populations in "Muslim countries" are not allowed to stand up to Islam for fear of beheading. It happens regularly. People who speak out about Islam in those countries are hunted down like rabid dogs. Fact.



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by spartacus699
 


I can see how you came with that conclusion.

Read Voices of Disbelief: Why We Are Atheists.

Interesting look... All have to do with environmental influences... Human beings are "neutral" or as the ancient say, children have a state of Tabula Rasa, or Blank Sheet.

I view Atheists in Western Cultures as Cold Christians. Likewise, an Atheist in Muslim culture is what I call a Cold Muslim.

Anyways, generally, both are the same, Theists and Atheists. A true Atheist or Christian would not like to be called an Atheist or Christian because it confines you within certain parameters and boxes you in on the Search for Truth. Then again, these labels might be considered a tripping stone... Which would be beneficial if one was to understand why one fell...

edit on 23-10-2013 by DelayedChristmas because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2013 @ 01:39 PM
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OH, and also....
Indy...

I don't believe in the 'virgin birth', or the 'resurrection'/'ascension' of Jesus, nor that he was the "only begotten Son" - never have - and that is why I can't 'claim' to be Christian.

BUT, I DO believe his message that we are to Treat others as we would want to be treated. The thing is, that this is NOT an exclusive teaching, a new idea, of Jesus's. No - it had been around for a LLlloooonggg time.

Therefore, to my thinking, it is fine to acknowledge The Golden Rule, which I believe was Jesus's main message - and one can do so - or not - by following any other religious/philosophical 'belief' that promote the same thing.

The rest of it: virgin birth, resurrection, miracles, so forth.....no, I don't, and can't, believe it.

Do I think Jesus was a good guy and teaching a worthwhile message? Yes. But the part about ONLY HIM being "God" is where I diverge.

As for 'nutters' --
my sense of reason and logic, and my life experiences, preclude me from believing the myths and stories. Just can't buy into it.

Would I die for my neighbors? The crack dealers next door? No. My bad, I guess, but, NO, I WOULD NOT. (Although it could be that I will die BECAUSE OF my neighbors, or even AT THEIR HANDS.)

(Seriously.)



edit on 10/23/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




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