Atheists are actually Christians....

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Genocide isn't a crime in the eyes of the Biblical God.

And then it's no crime in the universe either, and you can't charge God for what there is no law against. Can you show me the universal, natural law that you charge God with?

If there's no law against it, then you can't charge God for a crime. Show me where you have a legal basis to charge God for a crime. Can you do that?

The law of reciprocity? The law of Karma? Neither of those override survival of the fittest.

The law of reciprocity just says what action you do will be brought back to you, and since the action is killing humans, then how does a supernatural God be killed? If God is an ascended master of the highest enlightenment, then karma does not affect Him.

But since it is the Biblical God that you appeal by natural law in the argument, show me by natural law, where He has committed a crime.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Haven't the untouchables been told this for thousands of years? Don't they come back again and again to be untouchables because their caste had determined that they were not allowed compassion?

Those are religious doctrines and dogmas. Reincarnation is a belief that many religions embrace, and then add their own control mechanism. Religion is meant to control. It was never meant to bestow spirituality.

Do you have a choice regarding your reincarnation? Did you have the choice to come to this world born to the parents you chose before you came? Did you chose your parents?

Does it give you comfort to think that God made those choices for you?

And if you reincarnated, are you paying for your previous crimes now? Are you giving accountability now for your previous lives? And were you giving accountability before or after you believed in reincarnation?

If a child doesn't pass 5th grade, is being held back to redo the grade a punishment? Should a fair and balanced world pass the child onto the 5th grade, unprepared and unable to keep up?

Did reincarnation give you the escape from your parents? And if you were sent to this life to pay for your previous crimes, then why did you say your parents were cruel to you....

My mother's cruelty was born of her Christian beliefs.

if in fact, you were sent to take accountability? And if you didn't choose your parents, then karma chose for you? And if karma chose for you to be sent back to be held accountable, then why did you say it was wrong for your parents to treat you like they did, if it was predetermined by fate and karma to teach you a lesson?

We come into this world to learn lessons. We signed up for the class because it looked like something we would be interesting in learning.

You parents could not have been wrong in any way if karma and fate dictated that you were to be born to them. So why do you say they were wrong? Karma chose them for you, that's Kismet.

I don't believe in that.

You learned about reincarnation that you get to try over and over and over until you get it right, but karma has a funny sense of humor, to put you with your parents. Tell me, have you made accountability yet, or did you run away from the accountability?

Family issues can be the biggest and hardest kinds of lessons that we learn from.

Why do think God would put in an innocent child in abusive situations?

reply to post by WarminIndy


I don't believe in your God. However, your God presented himself as a sovereign lord over the Hebrew people and dictated laws to them. Then he proceeded to order those same people to break some of those laws. You God is a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of fellow.

I don't condemn the spider for killing the fly. Heck, I don't even condemn my cats for killing birds and mice, while their bowl is full. An asteroid, an earth quake and a tornado are not evil or sinful, they just are.

This life is a temporary existence. Our bodies are just temporary vehicles. We knew that before we came in.

Compassion IS natural order.

Evolution made compassiom to help the species to survive.

Survival of the fittest is true, look how humanity overcomes disease and bacteria with medicine...

windword
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I don't believe in your God.

Thank you. I didn't say you had to.

However, your God presented himself as a sovereign lord over the Hebrew people and dictated laws to them. Then he proceeded to order those same people to break some of those laws. You God is a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of fellow.

So God presenting Himself at least means He is real? You just don't agree with how He presented Himself? What would make Him more palatable for you?

I don't condemn the spider for killing the fly. Heck, I don't even condemn my cats for killing birds and mice, while their bowl is full. An asteroid, an earth quake and a tornado are not evil or sinful, they just are.

This life is a temporary existence. Our bodies are just temporary vehicles. We knew that before we came in.

How big is the spider? Tarantula sized or small? Would you allow the Black Widow to hide inside your shoes, and would you bless the Black Widow if it bites your toe?

And that's what I said, they are genocidal and kill indiscriminately. Nature makes no distinction. But you still can't charge God for a crime from the natural universe. If you say asteroids are is what it is, then by that principle, applied to God, then He is what He is, no matter the presentation. And if you are disapproving of His actions, then you still are applying a non-natural moralistic principle.

Show me from natural law, where it is a crime.

Perhaps He's karma as an instrument of torture against those who were reincarnated to receive punishment for previous crimes? But since the natural law is survival of the fittest, then karma is in opposition to the natural law.

If you are sent back to this life because you were cruel in a former life, and you are sent to receive punishment, who is the punisher?

Can you explain to us who is the justice giver and who is the punisher in karma?

And when did you discover that you knew this coming into this life? When did you receive the revelation that you knew before coming in? Did it take you discovering reincarnation and did you suddenly remember knowing your last previous life moments before you were born?

Did you remember this event prior to you discovering reincarnation and reading about it? Or did you always know you were reincarnated?

arpgme
Compassion IS natural order.

Evolution made compassiom to help the species to survive.

Survival of the fittest is true, look how humanity overcomes disease and bacteria with medicine...

Really?

I have Multiple Sclerosis.

Take it from there, if you don't mind to explain to me.

reply to post by windword


I don't know, why did God put me in an abusive home?

I would never have chosen my parents.

What could I have ever done in a previous life that would determine I should have been inflicted with what I was?

If you and I are talking on the level playing field of both coming from abusive homes, what was the difference in you and I that caused you to turn the way you did, and I turned the way I did?

From one adult survivor to another, this is something we work with.

reply to post by WarminIndy

So God presenting Himself at least means He is real?

Maybe, maybe not. But whoever that character from the Old Testament was or wasn't, I know for sure that it wasn't "GOD".

You just don't agree with how He presented Himself? What would make Him more palatable for you?

My God isn't a person with needs or desires. God is everything and everything is a part of God. The physical universe is the manifest God.

How big is the spider? Tarantula sized or small? Would you allow the Black Widow to hide inside your shoes, and would you bless the Black Widow if it bites your toe?

I would probably shake it out of my shoe outside, and let it run away. If been bitten by all kinds of things, and I never judged the creature a criminal for biting me. I have killed them though.

And that's what I said, they are genocidal and kill indiscriminately. Nature makes no distinction. But you still can't charge God for a crime from the natural universe. If you say asteroids are is what it is, then by that principle, applied to God, then He is what He is, no matter the presentation. And if you are disapproving of His actions, then you still are applying a non-natural moralistic principle.

So did God when he flooded the earth out of disgust.

Show me from natural law, where it is a crime.

It's not a natural crime. But, in the Bible, God commits and orders the actions that he has labeled crimes. I accuse your God, who I don't believe in, of hypocrisy.

Perhaps He's karma as an instrument of torture against those who were reincarnated to receive punishment for previous crimes? But since the natural law is survival of the fittest, then karma is in opposition to the natural law.

If you are sent back to this life because you were cruel in a former life, and you are sent to receive punishment, who is the punisher?

Can you explain to us who is the justice giver and who is the punisher in karma?

This doesn't reflect my beliefs at all. Reincarnation isn't a punishment. There is no punishment.

Did you remember this event prior to you discovering reincarnation and reading about it? Or did you always know you were reincarnated?

I always knew. I used to tell my mom stuff about my past lives. That's one reason why she would take me to have demons cast out of me when I was little.

reply to post by WarminIndy

I don't know, why did God put me in an abusive home?

I would never have chosen my parents.

I don't know why you think that God would place an innocent baby in an abusive home.

I picked my parent. I knew them both. My father and I were inseparable for many lifetimes. I remember my mother and recognized her eternal spirit, even though she did not see it. My daughter has been my mother many times. It was time to be her mother and let her know what a good job she had done with me in the past.

reply to post by windword


Ok, in your belief system and faith worldview, you don't believe in punishment. But a lot of people teaching reincarnation do indeed promote that.

And as I am a skeptic of reincarnation, I am not one to pass over anyone's experience about anything. So please understand, I would not have called you demonic.

I don't have memories of past lives, but I do believe in Genetic Memory. Our cells do store memory and even memories of ancestors.

What do you think about Genetic Memory?

reply to post by windword


I came into this life as a result of my parents.....

That's how it happened for me.

I one time stumbled across a website that said it could tell me about my past lives and so for fun, I answered the questions...the results were that I had been a math teacher from Thailand a thousand years ago and asked if I remembered that..

No, I have severe Dyscalculia and no, it was not called Thailand then, it was called Siam.

So you can see how people fall so easily for things without investigation. I am skeptical of reincarnation the same as you are skeptical about God.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Remember our conversation about "knowing" of other people's deaths? We are all connected spiritually as well as genetically. Genetics can't account for real time spiritual experiences. When you experience yourself, outside of your own body, then you understand that the spirit and the body have a temporary physical connection, but that the soul is eternal.

reply to post by WarminIndy

So you can see how people fall so easily for things without investigation. I am skeptical of reincarnation the same as you are skeptical about God.

I'm not skeptical about God. I just don't believe in the Biblical God.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Thanks, that's a good question, Warmindy - it made me think, in good ways.

More financial and social independence. Learning to be more confident and sure about myself and more independent while still being able to socialize and not be withdrawn from society. Having weak financial independence leads to me having weak social independence.

I have my own self, thanks for reminding me of that, but expressing it is not easy at the moment due to what I believe to be unhealthy situations I am involved in.

My posts are going to be a bit less coherent than normal I think for a bit, I am currently up in the air with my living situation and such.

adjensen
I don't know, Christianity started with 12 guys, has outlasted every known political entity, has outlived everyone who ever tried to control or curtail it and currently claims 2.1 billion followers.

Sounds like it worked out fine.

You ever come up with that kind of success, let us know, m-kay?

It's worked out fine? Lol your Gods plan all along was to have a few people belong to one of the 44,000 incompaterble denominations of Christianity?

I say a few people because most people arnt Christian, there's still around 5 billion people to go for this all knowing, all powerful all loving 'God' nearly 2000 years later...

I know your levels of expectation are rock bottom, but like i said, your God doesn't seem to be very good at this

reply to post by windword


Correct me if I am wrong, but is this Transcendental Meditation (Astral Projection) you are talking about? I asked people who practiced that, and I know several who have, how do you know where you went and could it have been just a mind trip?

How do you know your spirit left your body? Could you see your body independent? People who have NDE say the same thing.

As you suggested in another post about your faith system, that reincarnation allows you to set the controls, so then your faith system is yours alone? If it is yours alone, then I would assume there is nothing any of us can judge by regarding the validity of it outside of you telling us.

Pardon me for being skeptical, but can you see how this would be dismissed by many people because you prop up a worldview of your own definition and your own control, so how would we understand the reliability of the worldview?

And if it can be independently controlled, then tomorrow someone else takes what you said and adds another control to it, is it no longer your control, your worldview, propped onto your experience? What does it become?

Can you see this would lead to a progression into a different religion, where you are no longer the controller of your destiny? These are important things to answer if you are creating a faith system that you present as some kind of truth.

As a non-believer in your faith system,just allow me to ask questions of you.

1: Do you create your own destiny of no accountability?
2: How can I know what you are telling me is right?
3: If there is no accountability, can I do whatever I want?
4: How did you receive this revelation?
5: If I have control over my part, can I change the end goal?

Now please don't read into this as me being obstinate (I am, but not trying to be) but these are questions people will be thinking when they are looking for a faith system to follow and might find yours attractive. If there is someone in the future who does find yours and chooses to follow yours, then they will want to know these things in making their decision.

Is there an accountability factor for you, if someone feels later they were misled? I will tell you, I can definitely find someone out there who would follow your faith system, so what would you be offering them as an end goal beyond just being connected?

You've offered a philosophy that is self-controlled, there are many people who would attach themselves to that.

reply to post by WarminIndy

You've offered a philosophy that is self-controlled, there are many people who would attach themselves to that.

Of course they would, because NONE OF US want to think we are "born sinners". Believing (KNOWING/GNOSIS) that we ARE all connected is a very simple thing to achieve. Just try it on for ONE DAY....pretend, for just ONE DAY, that you really ARE connected to everyone and everything.....

not a "born sinner", not a "worthless piece of crap unworthy of crumbs"....

but a perfect soul engaging in an adventure that includes fear, pain, anger, LOVE, and JOY.

I truly hate the Abrahamic "I suck/you suck" mentality, and think it needs to be abolished...THE SOONER, THE BETTER.

And FWIW, I believe it will happen - perhaps even in my lifetime - but definitely in my children's lifetimes.

It's coming, and there's no escaping it.

reply to post by wildtimes


But Wildtimes, as I am a Christian, I have never told you that you were worthless, and I speak from within my religious faith system. Those who made you feel that way, did you ever ask them why they would do that to you?

My faith teaches that I am fearfully and wonderfully made, the same as you are.

But you seem to be killing the message because of the messenger.

You know that I am not Catholic, and it's the Pauline message that you have problems with. Have you read that God loves you? Did anyone ever tell you that?

If I know that I know God inwardly, then why is it the God I know doesn't look at you as though you were worthless. Yes, we are all born in sin, because we are humans that suffer humanity. It's not that as a baby you did anything wrong, but as the child of humanity, you came into this world with the problem of humanity already in you. In this life you have never escaped the humanity of who you are.

You are a human being and to suggest otherwise is simply wrong. You have the mind and intelligence of a human being. The same as I do. But inwardly, what are we? You are soul that has to go on and on and on, until you get it right. But I have an inward God that not only is transcendent above nature, is one that reaches us inwardly. It doesn't change the humanity that we are. But what God does is change the nature of the inward man.

But if you and I ever met on the street, we would meet each other's humanity. "What is man, that thou art mindful of him?"

If your soul has to go on and on and on, then when will it be enough? Where's the end goal for you? Connected to what? Stars? Planets? What?

Will you be connected to the Great Spirit? What if the Great Spirit says you can't come until you've learned? What if you never learn? Then there's no end goal, if you never learn.

Do you think it was cruel of God to say you get one life to make it right, but told you that you will never make it right, that's why He sent Jesus? That's the point, He told Cain that "sin lies at the door and wants to rule over Cain". But in the mercy, God still provided Cain a way to escape death from other humans. But as long as Cain allowed sin to rule, then Cain was at the will of sin. He was at the will of his humanity.

Do you think it was cruel of God to send someone in your place? And that someone willing to come and take your place? But in all of those coming backs, will it ever change the core being of who you are? If your personality will remain unchanged, then you never change.

The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. But the rain is no different regardless of who it falls on. Rain falling on the ocean doesn't change water. Water changing from ice to steam does not change the elemental structure of water. It is H20, whether it is ice or steam. What changes is when as steam, H20 separates itself, but when it goes back together and falls to the earth, it doesn't come back as something else.

In an acorn, all the instructions for a tree are there. When the acorn falls from the tree, it doesn't fall to turn into a cactus or a baboon. It returns to turn into a tree once again, because the message in an acorn is that it is going to be a tree.

How do you escape the fundamental message of a humanity within you?

reply to post by WarminIndy

Yes, we are all born in sin, because we are humans that suffer humanity. It's not that as a baby you did anything wrong, but as the child of humanity, you came into this world with the problem of humanity already in you. In this life you have never escaped the humanity of who you are.

What exactly is your problem with humanity? Seems like the real problems happen when we lose touch with humanity.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Yes, we are all born in sin, because we are humans that suffer humanity. It's not that as a baby you did anything wrong, but as the child of humanity, you came into this world with the problem of humanity already in you. In this life you have never escaped the humanity of who you are.

What exactly is your problem with humanity? Seems like the real problems happen when we lose touch with humanity.

edit on 26-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Do you think I have a humanity problem? It seems there are some who do have a problem with having their own humanity.

Are you a human being and do you have humanity within you? Is your DNA structure anything else but a human being?